Atheism: The reasons for it.

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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I'm guessing that you are referring to the bible (One object cannot prove (support) two totally opposite viewpoints.)That is where I think you have a blind side.

If you are standing at the rear of an elephant and I at the front, we will have two distinct impressions of what an elephant is. I studied the bible from a historical point of view while you studied the content. I wanted to find out if it was worth studying and you assumed it was. I found that it was fiction and you found the word of god. I used the scientific method, you used belief.
Same object, different objectives, different conclusions. Are you still right? To you, you are. To me, I am.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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I assume you mean what is left of historical documents. Nobody seems to have a copy of tax records for some years around -5to0 and 25-35AD. How did you get around that obstacle?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
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I assume you mean what is left of historical documents. Nobody seems to have a copy of tax records for some years around -5to0 and 25-35AD. How did you get around that obstacle?

I have no idea what you are talking about or what it refers to. Clarify please.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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You said you checked history books. My point was that many of those things are missing, like the tax records of Judea for those years. Your truth is based on a remnant of all available material. Those documents could prove my case, now we'll never know. I assume you never saw them.
 

Cliffy

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The bible is missing the gospels of the other eight apostles. I assume you haven't read those. Your belief is based on partial evidence just as mine is.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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Apparently there are a bunch of people that are good only because they think a sky tyrant is watching them. Such people I suppose are incapable of being their own authority.

Scott Free,

Although I have no use for religion or sky gods, you have shown that there is a need for both. If not for the two all these people would be running amok, terrorizing all other living things. Let us praise Jeeezuz! for without him we would need protection from some other source.
You never know what you are paying for in life Cliff or even how. Maybe not even why you get hit with big objects. Apparently (being the operative word) there are a bunch of people being good because they think God is watching? Those of us who believe in God know when we are being good or bad = we are no different than non believers. Bad people are bad even if they believe in God and the same for good people. People are not "good" because they think God is watching. To agree with you on that, would be like believing you won't get what you want for Christmas because Santa can see you. Do you think the offending members of the various churches regarding residential schools truly believe that God will "get them" for their foul acts? People are either good or horrible. End of story.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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If a Christian kills you you can be pretty safe in assuming he was a liar about being a Christian.

There are a lot of misguided people out there because they let other people guide them. The path is narrow, it is a personal journey. The relationship between a person and their creator is personal. One may find solace in any number of books, teachings or disciplines. None is any better or worse that the next. It is all a matter of what is right for the individual.

I think the bible is fiction. I have plenty of evidence. You think the bible is the word of god and I'm sure you have plenty of evidence. Is one of us wrong - No! Because we are only right for ourselves. The truth is only relevant to the beholder. and that as far as I can assertain is the only universal truth.
Well put Cliff. :smile:
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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I start all the religious threads because I am its victim and am sorting it out. I only ever start threads in the hope someone can add to the topic, add clarity or help my understanding.

Believe it or not MHz, I don't suppose I have everything figured out; as I have said before, I am no longer religious.
Scott Free - why are you no longer religious? You prayed hard for something and God said no so now he's not there - right? I've prayed and been given answers that I sometimes did not recognize and I've prayed and felt no one heard because nothing happened, nothing changed. When I was 27 I prayed so hard that God would fix my Mom's ailing heart and nothing happened. She still died. I let go of God for a brief time in a manner of speaking but realized as soon as I found myself praying again that I had not given up on God at all. Sometimes, ****e happens even if you pray and pray. Sometimes we are lucky we don't get what we pray for and other times not so lucky.
 

Cliffy

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"Why does fortune smile on some
And let the rest go free?" - Don Henley


IslandSpecific,

Scott Free said, as I have, that he has no use for religion. He did not say (at least in that post) the he didn't believe in god. I'm not sure, but he may have said that in another post.

Prayer is for our own comfort, like Linus' blanket. I have found myself praying and when I realize that is what I am doing, I wonder what it is that I'm praying to. I would probably get the same comfort from sucking my thumb or something else more enjoyable.... Momma! Come to Pappa! Yummy nummers.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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I was brought up Roman Catholic and my kids are being brought up Roman Catholic.

Oh. Okay...

You haven't provided proof of your assertion like I have asked.

I shouldn't have to. If Jesus wasn't God, what did his death accomplish? When I saw your post claiming christians don't claim christ as god, well, needless to say, I was shocked.

I love this forum, and before I can reach the argument of whether or not God has revealed truths thru any particular religion, I have to make prior arguments. I need to make a case for truth itself, and a case for existence.

With all respect to you gerryh, I don't need to be distracted with statements that are polluting to the christian faith. To say that JC was not god, is insulting. To deny the suffiency of his death is insulting.

Remember? Grace by faith? It was that one, unshakable event(Christ's death) that gives us salvation. You can't earn it with good acts, you can't get it from membership in a church, you don't get it from praying to the virgin mary.

However, I'm confused. I don't see in any RC doctrine a denial of the trinity. Tell me this: What would Christ's death accomplish if he was a faliable man with orginal sin, no matter how virtueous he lived?
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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so if they did, it doesn't really matter what other atrocious acts they had committed? Does your god offer salvations to mass muderers as well as to really good people?

Stalin was educted in a Christian seminary, so I guess he did, BTW

God offers salvation to any one who asks for it.

It doesn't matter if the sin is a white lie or mass murder. Jesus Christ defeated ALL sin by dying on the cross.

Even Hitler, his murder of 10 million people isn't more powerful than Christ's death, and resurrection. No sin is.

As for Stalin, your still missing the point. Being taught christian ideals as a child doesn't save you. Neither do you acts.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Even Hitler, his murder of 10 million people isn't more powerful than Christ's death, and resurrection. No sin is.
Uh huh... It's just barely conceivable to me that a deity might be able to forgive someone like Hitler for the horrors he caused. But I can't, I'm merely human. I'd take the line that Churchill took: Hitler was wicked and had to be held to account by other human beings, no compromise, no accommodation, no deity is going to rectify this for us in this life or the next, if there is one (which I don't believe). We had to take him down. That's essentially the Manichean heresy to most Christian sects. But not in my world: you have to draw a line somewhere, and take responsibility.
 

Vereya

Council Member
Apr 20, 2006
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God offers salvation to any one who asks for it.

It doesn't matter if the sin is a white lie or mass murder. Jesus Christ defeated ALL sin by dying on the cross.

Even Hitler, his murder of 10 million people isn't more powerful than Christ's death, and resurrection. No sin is.

As for Stalin, your still missing the point. Being taught christian ideals as a child doesn't save you. Neither do you acts.

Well, alleywayzalways, you did it! For the first time that I post on this forum I am at a loss for words....
No difference between a white lie and a mass murder.... Well, I really don't know what to say... or how to talk to you.... Did you think really well before posting this, or did you just want to get the better of me in the debate and got carried away? I truly hope that the second variant is correct. Otherwise I've got nothing more to discuss with you.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Well, alleywayzalways, you did it! For the first time that I post on this forum I am at a loss for words....
No difference between a white lie and a mass murder.... Well, I really don't know what to say... or how to talk to you.... Did you think really well before posting this, or did you just want to get the better of me in the debate and got carried away? I truly hope that the second variant is correct. Otherwise I've got nothing more to discuss with you.

I'm sure hitler would have to say a few more prayers than the little child who told a white lie,
then all would be forgiven. Oooops oo my, I'm going to be sick. blagh yuk gulp spew:x
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Jesus was just a man, a teacher (Rabbi) and if he died on a cross, it was a great waste of a rare wisdom. If your salvation is based on the fairy tale of god dying for your sins, then I feel sorry for the meaninglessness of your existence.

Many billions have dyed because of this belief. If he was a god, why did he not foresee the blood that would be shed in his name by his "followers"? He did not alleviate suffering, he created it, instigated it.

That you see this as a good thing speaks volumes about your character.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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Scott Free - why are you no longer religious? You prayed hard for something and God said no so now he's not there - right?

Wrong.

I grew tired of the tyranny and hypocracy of god. I also grew tired of the godoholics around me. I also noticed the claims the religious were making weren't true. I also spent about 10 years trying to prove there was a god and wasn't able - a task that should be relatively simple if it were true.

So basically I just woke up.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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So basically I just woke up.

Scott Free,Or did you look in the wrong places? In the end, the only place to find the truth is inside of yourself. In the quiet stillness a small voice speaks to you. Meditation doesn't have to be a formal practice.

Most of us are afraid of our thoughts with good reason. All those voices in there are actually the voices of others telling you how useless, stupid or ugly, but unless you stop and listen, you will not recognize them. You will not get to understand the insecurities of the person who put them in there. And you will not be able to finally shut them up.

That is the beginning. Once you silence them, then you will be able to hear the still small voice that speaks to you from your heart. Who that is, is a matter of speculation, but it will not lie to you, will not give you bad advise or lead you astray. Some say it is your soul. I don't know but it was worth the effort to shut those other voices off.

But if you are schizophrenic, you're hooped.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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So basically I just woke up.

Scott Free,Or did you look in the wrong places? In the end, the only place to find the truth is inside of yourself. In the quiet stillness a small voice speaks to you. Meditation doesn't have to be a formal practice.

I did find the truth. There is no god.

Most of us are afraid of our thoughts with good reason. All those voices in there are actually the voices of others telling you how useless, stupid or ugly, but unless you stop and listen, you will not recognize them. You will not get to understand the insecurities of the person who put them in there. And you will not be able to finally shut them up.

I hear no such voices but what's even more: I do not need to be consoled for reality. We live in a society bent on turning everything into consolation. It is like we cannot accept the brutal reality of a hostile universe and that, despite all evidence that it is, we create fictitious narratives that would protect us if only we "believed" in them or had "faith" in them beyond all reason to do so. And now the universe has demonstrated itself to be so hostile that even our created consolations threaten to destroy us!

It is far more meritorious for people to cast of their perpetual childhood and stand before the universe as an adult than stay sucking on the teet of a pretend sky deity.

That is the beginning. Once you silence them, then you will be able to hear the still small voice that speaks to you from your heart. Who that is, is a matter of speculation, but it will not lie to you, will not give you bad advise or lead you astray. Some say it is your soul. I don't know but it was worth the effort to shut those other voices off.

The universe should be connected to god and the proof of him should be as readily available as a well polished river rock.

There is no need for imagined voices unless god doesn't exist. We need to seek out ambiguous hints and induce trance like states to commune with god only because he doesn't exist; such actions create within ourselves the god some of us so desperately seem to need.

But if you are schizophrenic, you're hooped.

I'm not.

But herein lies yet another charge against the god myth. Why is it then that so many mentally ill people seem drawn to him? Isn't it exactly because they are the more desperate but also the ones most able to conjure the proof they need within their minds? Sensible people that say "if there is a god he should be here plain to see! After all he did make all this didn't he? So where is he?" will not find god, because god does exactly hide within the folds of a deluded immature mind - that is precisely where he does live! Confront your fears, become an adult and embracing mental health will all ensure you drive the god delusion right from your mind. How could that be if he is real? Is gods domain really those lost in perpetual childhood and mental illness? I see every indication it is thus not only do I deny god but if he should exist I reject him. You can have the lunatic all to yourself.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Scott Free,

There is no god. Well that is not exactly right. You are your own god. You created you. Reality is an illusion created by your beliefs and thoughts. People and events appear in your illusion to reflect those inner thoughts. It is how we entertain ourselves and grow.

What I said about the voices is true. In a conversation with David Suzuki we discussed the saying that we only use 10% of our brain. If this were true, then our brain would shrink to 10% of its present size from lack of use. It is not that we don't use it, it is that we don't use it consciously. Most of the time there is a constant dialogue going on that we just don't pay any attention to. A bunch of background noise.

In the quiet, if you stop and just listen, you will start to notice that there are many different voices and most of them are not yours. They are the voices of other people in your life (from birth). What they said is imprinted in your brain and when you are not using that brain consciously, they just rattle on. Much of what they say is negative. The reason is that negative stuff seems to have a stronger emotional charge so it has a stronger imprint.

Now, this is where it gets tricky to explain. Your brain is basically the most powerful and complex computer we know of. Its thoughts and beliefs are projected against a screen we call reality and life is played out as a hologram. It is exactly like the Matrix. It is a movie that is generated by the programming of brain. That is what the movie the Matrix was trying to tell us.

Once you wake up to the fact that you are the script writer and the director of this movie, you can make it go in any direction you want it to. But, not too many people know this (although our numbers are growing) so most people create their reality by default. To find out how your computer is programmed, you have to stop and listen to the voices. You will begin to see what the programming is, but, and this is what those in control do not want you to know, you can change the program.

That is what Neo did. He went into the program and changed it. That is why he could do supernatural things within the Matrix - he was no longer bound by the rules of the program. That is what shaman do, yogis do and what the story of Jesus is trying to say. The supposed miracles that he performed were possible because he learned that we are not bound by the programming. We can regain control of it by being consious most of the time. The more you act consciously, the more control you have.

So, what is fear? Fear prevents us from becoming who we are - gods. That is why religion was invented: to instill fear into you, because if you grew to you full potential, you become a threat to those in control. The last thing they want you to know is that you are equal to them, you have the same power as them. Then they cannot control you any more. And they have been controlling you since day one.

Through advertising, education, and religion, they have programmed hundreds of generations of slaves to do their bidding. The entire monetary system is designed to enslave us through debt. Did you not notice that our schools never really taught us anything of any real value. They never taught us how to be in relationship with anybody, how to be critical thinkers, how to do just about anything that would allow us to be free, self sufficient human beings. They just programed us to uphold the staus quo.

The proof is in our politics and our social and religious institutions. You think you know why you rejected religion, but do you really? You think it was because it failed to give you the insight you wanted. It created hypocrites and mind numbing myths. That is only a small part of it. Those were just the obvious outer stuff. Deep down you know that in reality you rebelled against its attempts to enslave you, to control your mind, to make you feel small and insignificant.

But you are much greater than that and some part of you is becoming aware of that. You are an extremely powerful being, capable of creating worlds. They may be just in your head, but everybody's world is just in their head. That is a basic tenant of Buddhism, that life is but a dream. You are the dreamer. All the pain and suffering in your world can be alleviated by you waking up to the fact that you can control the dream.

Now you may be beginning to see why this information is dangerous in our hands. The controllers will try to bring you back into the program. That is why this information had to be hidden in a movie. Only those who are ready to take back their power saw it, and believe me, thousands did. There are thousands of articles and books that have been written about it. I am not making this up. It is out there and it is not that hard to find.

It has nothing to do with gods or religion and everything to do with psychology. Questioning the status quo is the first step. Do your research, it helps focus your mind and your intent. Listen to your programming. It will show yu why your life is the way it is. It will help you understand your anger about religion - it is well founded. Then you will be ready to reprogram your brain so that you are in control of the dream again.

What I said in my last post was to feel you out, find out where you are and where you came from. I think you are ready for the next step in your journey. You just have to decide whether you are going to just idle about where you are or are you going to set out on the adventure of your life. It is up to you. It always was. They just didn't want you to know it (for obvious reasons).