Zionist Control of US Policy

[tracy]

I couldn't agree with you more Colpy.#2, #3 and #4 are a draw to both the liberal and conservative people here, and to both men and women (men on the security issue, women because of women's rights there compared to Arab countries).

 

[tracy]

Do you have a problem separating Church from State?

You can separate church from state all you want. Many of the people who work for the state are church goers and the values and beliefs they profess Sunday don't leave them Monday morning. Plus, people are allowed to vote for any reason they choose.

 

[lone wolf]

You can separate church from state all you want. Many of the people who work for the state are church goers and the values and beliefs they profess Sunday don't leave them Monday morning. Plus, people are allowed to vote for any reason they choose.

Yeah, yeah, and you have Mafia dons being good Church people on Sundays too. Your point is?...

 

[tracy]

Yeah, yeah, and you have Mafia dons being good Church people on Sundays too. Your point is?...

My point is separating church and state doesn't mean the church has no influence on state affairs. They influence their followers daily activities, including how they run their government.

 

[Zzarchov]

Yeah, yeah, and you have Mafia dons being good Church people on Sundays too. Your point is?...

I should point out in Canada there is no seperation.

Our head of state is the head of the Anglican church and our charter rights are granted to us by God.

Just so you know.

 

[lone wolf]

My point is separating church and state doesn't mean the church has no influence on state affairs. They influence their followers daily activities, including how they run their government.

Influence is one thing. Control is another. When religion runs the show you run the danger of a nation believing it is God.

 

[lone wolf]

I should point out in Canada there is no seperation.

Our head of state is the head of the Anglican church and our charter rights are granted to us by God.

Just so you know.

How much power does the Queen of England exert?... and granted by God are just pretty words in a country that doesn't allow God in its schools.

Topic is control of US policy....

Just the reality....

 

[earth_as_one]

An interesting analysis IMHO. Although I'm now gonna try and tear it apart.......


I doubt the USA would have been "overwhelmed" by Jewish refugees, as they could have done the same as Canada, and simply refused to take them in.....with the full compliance of the general population.

You are dead on that the USA used Israel as a counter to Soviet presence in the ME during the Cold War.

But I think you missed the reason for continued American support for Israel, which is, let's face it, very ofter counter-productive to American interest in the region.......I think there are four basic reasons for it:

1. History: the Jewish state used to be the darling of the progressives with the Kibbutz and the powerful Labour party and the fact so many were persecuted by the Nazis, and they were seen as the underdog........I remember the awe, the admiration, the glee at Israeli success in the Six Day War.........little Israel, nation of a devasted ethnic group, the 99 pound guy that was always beaten up, kicks the bully-boy (Egypt) in the kneecaps, and when the bully's buddies come to save him, little Israel pounds the bejesus out of all comers, in very little time....truth or not, that is the "inspiring" vision most Americans had at the time.

2. Ideology: the Jewish state is seen as being "one of us" with a working constitution, a viable robust democratic tradition, a dedication to western values.........they are seen as a natural ally surrounded by vicious Arab despots, the best of which is an actual King, fer God's sake.......worthy of our aid.......

3. Militarily: A dependable foothold in a strategic position. Very strategiic.

4. As Israel was the baby of the intellectual moderate left, it is now the baby of the religious right.......how could any good bible-thumper, be anti-Israel????? Especially one who sees the current clash between Islamo-fascists and the West on purely theological terms, throw in the "God's Chosen People" aspect, WOW! Powerful stuff in avery religious nation ...... It is not the Jewish lobby that influences US policy in this regard nearly as much as it is the Christian lobby.....

Canada should have welcomed the Jewish refugees fleeing Europe and then dispersed them evenly across the country. Its shameful that we used to be so anti-Semitic.

1) Israel won the 1967 war by striking their adversaries without warning and effectively taking out their combined airforces and out flanking their ground troops in multiple simultaneous Pearl harbor like attacks. The war was effectively over the first day. All's fair in love and war right? But Israel can expect their adversaries will behave the same one day especially when it comes to stuff like these 1967 war crimes:
Mass Graves.

Israel's military was about half the combined strength of their adversaries. But their military was better led, trained and equipped. Their adversaries were disorganized, poorly led and equipped. The element of surprise was probably the deciding factor. Given the events leading up to the war, Israel's sudden attack should have been expected.

2) I guess Canada does have some disturbing parallels with Israel. We also have different categories of rights for different people, although not as extreme as Israel or for the same purpose. First Nations people have more rights than other Canadians, but that's due to treaties and agreements which led to Canada's creation. We also took lands by force and practiced ethnic cleansing. But that's old history and we've since moved on to paying compensation and settling disputes peacefully. Hopefully Israel will also evolve to this point one day.

3) What exactly are the strategic benefits of supporting Israel? You make that statement like its a fact, yet you fail to provide examples of any benefits.

Israel costs the US multiple billions a year in American military and economic support for Israel, as well as billions more in annual bribes to Egypt and Jordan to maintain the peace.

If any of the pro-Israel Arab dictatorships including Jordan ever became true democracies, the people would demand justice and freedom for Palestinians, break ties with Israel and eventually start a war which would would end in a nuclear holocaust and Israel's destruction.

If Israel fell into the hands of their adversaries, how would that affect the security of Europe, Canada, or the US? Israel's existance creates security and economic problems for Canada, the US and Europe.

Now that said, I don't support Israel being taken over by their adversaries. It would result in a huge humanitarian catastrophe. Their adversaries would likely be merciless and take out decades of anger on Israeli civilians. That's probably Israel's longterm fate, but I don't wish such things on anyone. When the inevitable happens, I hope Canada will not turn their backs on Jewish refugees like we did in the past. That would be disgraceful.

But please explain the benefits to Israel to Canada or the West. Something which would justify our "unshakeable" support for their leader's "measured" responses and billions in military and economic support. Seems to me Israel's existance creates more problems than it solves.

4) Please feel free to worship whoever or whatever you want. But as an agnostic infidel, I find religious excuses to justify commiting war crimes and crimes against humanity particularly repugnant. As a result of relgious beliefs (Zionism) which led to Israel's creation, 4.6 million people live as nationless refugees without rights permanently dependent on humanitarian relief. Zionist ethnic cleansing cannot be justified by any Christian or Jewish scripture. In fact Zionism has created and perpetuates an ongoing humanitarian catastrophe of biblical proportions.

 

[Tyr]

I doubt the USA would have been "overwhelmed" by Jewish refugees, as they could have done the same as Canada, and simply refused to take them in.....with the full compliance of the general population.

which they are within their rights to do so.

 

[Zzarchov]

2) I guess Canada does have some disturbing parallels with Israel. We also have different categories of rights for different people, although not as extreme as Israel or for the same purpose. First Nations people have more rights than other Canadians, but that's due to treaties and agreements which led to Canada's creation. We also took lands by force and practiced ethnic cleansing. But that's old history and we've since moved on to paying compensation and settling disputes peacefully. Hopefully Israel will also evolve to this point one day.

Lets go over this.

1.) Its actually more recent history than Israel in many cases.
2.) They are not treated better, many reserves are far worse off than Gaza during the blockade which you called a warcrime. Well more than 20% of Gazans had potable water in the worst of times.

3.)We also only settle disputes peacefully when we aren't shot at, and even then its not settling a dispute through consensus, its us deciding how things will be settled.

Israel by comparison has done more than token gestures, already haven offered independance and given back a majority of total land in exchange for peace with Egypt.

I don't see anything to that magnitude in any North American nation.

Unrelated to this Topic: In any war with Israel that Jordan and Egypt would try, it would end up worse than the last times they tried it, its just giving more land to Israel.

You also don't grasp that the "nuclear holocaust" would not cause Israel to be over run, best case scenario for the attackers would be MAD, in which there would be nobody in the middle east of any faith. Realistically if Israel lost ties with the USA, it would just make a crapload with its own arms industry supplying rogue states, and if that failed, probably crumble as a democracy and whipe out the neighbouring hostile nations. Its generally a bad idea to try and crush a nuclear armed nation, thats why people propped up Russia after the cold war.

 

[tracy]

..................

 

[Colpy]

I doubt the USA would have been "overwhelmed" by Jewish refugees, as they could have done the same as Canada, and simply refused to take them in.....with the full compliance of the general population.

which they are within their rights to do so.

Oh absolutely!

I think that, if wise, both the USA and Canada would have taken in as many European Jews as possible, but that does not mean they should have been required to do so.....

That is what makes our immigration/refugee policies such a joke.....if you are not a citizen, you have NO right to be here, and we can, and often should, boot your arse out on our whim.

 

[Colpy]

Do you have a problem separating Church from State?

I'll expand on what Tracy said, although she is correct.

First of all, seperation of Church and State is an AMERICAN concept, not Canadian, as so aptly demonstrated by the fact that our Head of State is also head of the Anglican Church.

Secondly, even in the USA, the constitutional divide is very slight.....it simply requires that Congress make no law establishing an official gov't religion........that is it. That has been wildly expanded by the "living Constitution" crew, as sorry a bunch as one can imagine IMHO.

Thirdly, you can not seperate Church and State in a nation that is a democracy.....and very religious. If religion is a major factor in peoples' lives, it will influence how they vote and what they expect from gov't.....so the divide is never that wide.....

 

[lone wolf]

I'll expand on what Tracy said, although she is correct.

First of all, seperation of Church and State is an AMERICAN concept, not Canadian, as so aptly demonstrated by the fact that our Head of State is also head of the Anglican Church.

Secondly, even in the USA, the constitutional divide is very slight.....it simply requires that Congress make no law establishing an official gov't religion........that is it. That has been wildly expanded by the "living Constitution" crew, as sorry a bunch as one can imagine IMHO.

Thirdly, you can not seperate Church and State in a nation that is a democracy.....and very religious. If religion is a major factor in peoples' lives, it will influence how they vote and what they expect from gov't.....so the divide is never that wide.....

Considering the topic is Zionist control of US policy your point is wasted too, Colpy....

 

[earth_as_one]

Lets go over this.

1.) Its actually more recent history than Israel in many cases.
2.) They are not treated better, many reserves are far worse off than Gaza during the blockade which you called a warcrime. Well more than 20% of Gazans had potable water in the worst of times.

3.)We also only settle disputes peacefully when we aren't shot at, and even then its not settling a dispute through consensus, its us deciding how things will be settled.

Israel by comparison has done more than token gestures, already haven offered independance and given back a majority of total land in exchange for peace with Egypt.

I don't see anything to that magnitude in any North American nation.

Unrelated to this Topic: In any war with Israel that Jordan and Egypt would try, it would end up worse than the last times they tried it, its just giving more land to Israel.

You also don't grasp that the "nuclear holocaust" would not cause Israel to be over run, best case scenario for the attackers would be MAD, in which there would be nobody in the middle east of any faith. Realistically if Israel lost ties with the USA, it would just make a crapload with its own arms industry supplying rogue states, and if that failed, probably crumble as a democracy and whipe out the neighbouring hostile nations. Its generally a bad idea to try and crush a nuclear armed nation, thats why people propped up Russia after the cold war.

You are saying that Gazans are better off than First Nation reserves are here in Canada??? I admit the state of many First Nation Reserves are a disgrace, but you can't expect anyone to take you seriously with comments like the above.

Gaza Destruction
YouTube - Destruction in Gaza by the Israeli offensive

From Oxfam
YouTube - Destruction in Gaza, filmed by Oxfam International

Shattered Lives
YouTube - destruction in gaza

 

[Cannuck]

Considering the topic is Zionist control of US policy your point is wasted too, Colpy....

No point is ever wasted if even one person learns anything from it.

 

[earth_as_one]

I can't tell any difference between American foreign policy and Israeli foreign policy. What AIPAC says is important, the US says is important.

AIPAC - Issue Analysis

This youtube short discusses how US foreign policy has become so focused on Israel that US foreign policy is no longer in US national interests.
YouTube - The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

A Letter To Aipac

By Betty McCollum

The letter below was sent by Representative Betty McCollum, a Democrat from Minnesota, to the executive director of AIPAC. The bill mentioned, H.R. 4681, the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act of 2006, would place so many restraints on aid to the Palestinian people, and so many restrictions on the administration's ability to deal with the Palestinians, that even the State Department has opposed it. AIPAC has strongly backed it. The Senate version of the bill, S. 2237, would allow the administration far more flexibility. On April 6, the House International Relations Committee passed H.R. 4681 by a vote of 36 to 2; McCollum was one of the two nays. As of May 11, AIPAC has yet to respond to her demand for an apology.

—Michael Massing
April 10, 2006​

Mr. Howard Kohr
Executive Director
American Israel Public Affairs Committee
440 First Street, NW; Suite 600
Washington, D.C. 20001
Dear Mr. Kohr:
During my nineteen years serving in elected office, including the past five years as a Member of Congress, never has my name and reputation been maligned or smeared as it was last week by a representative of AIPAC. Last Friday, during a call with my chief of staff, an AIPAC representative from Minnesota who has frequently lobbied me on behalf of your organization stated, "on behalf of herself, the Jewish community, AIPAC, and the voters of the Fourth District, Congresswoman McCollum's support for terrorists will not be tolerated." Ironically, this individual, who does not even live in my congressional district, feels free to speak for my constituents.
This response may have been the result of extreme emotion or irrational passion, but regardless, it is a hateful attack that is vile and offensive to me and the families I represent. I call on AIPAC to immediately condemn this un-American attack and disavow any attempt to use this type of threat and intimidation to stifle legitimate policy differences. I will not stand to be labeled or threatened in a manner that questions my patriotism or my oath of office.
Last week, I did vote against H.R. 4681 during mark-up of the bill in the House International Relations Committee. As a Member of Congress sworn to uphold the Constitution, and ensure the security of the US and represent the values and beliefs of the constituents who I serve, it was my view that H.R. 4681 goes beyond the State Department's current policies toward Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and potentially undermines the US position vis-à-vis the coordinated international pressure on Hamas. The language contained in S. 2237 accurately reflects my position.
Keeping diplomatic pressure on Hamas to renounce terrorism, recognize the State of Israel, dismantle terrorist infrastructure, and honor past agreements and treaty obligations, while preventing a humanitarian crisis among the Palestinian people, are all policy goals already strongly supported by myself, the Bush administration, Congress and the American people. But, if the purpose of H.R. 4681 was to send another strong message to Hamas and the Palestinian people, as Congress already has sent with the passage of S. Con. Res. 79, then I disagree with the vehicle for that message. In my opinion, Congress should be articulating clear support for the Secretary of State's present course of action; not creating a new law which likely diminishes the diplomatic tools needed to advance US policy goals with regard to the Palestinian people, potentially cuts US funding to the United Nations, and largely restates current law while creating on-going and burdensome unfunded reporting requirements.
As you well know, in Congress we do not shy away from condemning the vile words of despots and dictators who use anti-Semitism as a weapon to incite hatred, fear and violence. AIPAC should not have a lower standard for persons affiliated and representing its organization when they label a Member of Congress who thinks for herself and always puts the interest of our nation and people first a supporter of terrorists.
You and your colleagues at AIPAC have the right to disagree with my position on any piece of legislation, but for an AIPAC representative to say that I would ever vote to support Middle East terrorists over the interests of my country will never be tolerated by me or the families I serve. This incident rises to a level in which a formal, written apology is required.
Mr. Kohr, I am a supporter of a strong US–Israeli relationship and my voting record speaks for itself. This will not change. But until I receive a formal, written apology from your organization I must inform you that AIPAC representatives are not welcome in my offices or for meetings with my staff.
Betty McCollum
Member of Congress
4th District, Minnesota
Washington, D.C.

A Letter To Aipac - The New York Review of Books

 

[gopher]

''This stuff is simply idiotic.....and perhaps you could explain why Bush et al have refused repeatedly (and unwisely) to support an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear sites?''


What nuclear sites are you talking about? The IAEA has said Iran does not have nukes.

Why not bomb Israel's nuclear sites instead?

The thought of defending the Zionist warmongers is idiotic.

 

[darkbeaver]

Olmert’s Poodle

By Patrick J. Buchanan

January 18, 2009 "American Conservative" --- As Israel entered the third week of its Gaza blitz, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert regaled a crowd in Ashkelon with an astonishing tale.

 

[gopher]

''you can not seperate Church and State in a nation that is a democracy.....''


The USA is a democracy and it has thrived under disestablishment.

When Gibbons wrote The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire he attributed that society's dissolution to its adoption of Christianity as its official religion.