Without a Safety Net: What kind of country do Canadians want?

[Twila]

I think a better way is simular to what is done in several places in the States. The State pays the landlord directly. Any additional rent would come from tenant (welfare user). Food is by food stamps. The amount of cash doled out is next to 0. No abuses or people taking their cheque and spending it on crack or weed.

well, they can sell their food stamps. No matter how fool proof you think you can make it, someone will discover a way to scam it.

that's what I meant by micromanaging. You'd have to have an army of people available to micromanage every single aspect. It would be impossible. Also, if children growing up on welfare never see their parents manage their money, how are the children going to learn? In the end it's the children who will loose out at every turn, every twist, and every attempt to stop the abuse that isn't as prevalent as those not on welfare seem to believe.

From Utah in the states (just one article of hundreds on the net)
The Myth of Welfare and Drug Use - The Daily Beast

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

well, they can sell their food stamps. No matter how fool proof you think you can make it, someone will discover a way to scam it.

that's what I meant by micromanaging. You'd have to have an army of people available to micromanage every single aspect. It would be impossible. Also, if children growing up on welfare never see their parents manage their money, how are the children going to learn? In the end it's the children who will loose out at every turn, every twist, and every attempt to stop the abuse that isn't as prevalent as those not on welfare seem to believe.

From Utah in the states (just one article of hundreds on the net)
The Myth of Welfare and Drug Use - The Daily Beast

I think the worst thing you can do is give out cash directly. Yes there will be scamers. If you catch them, revoke all benifits and hope that discourages some of the scams. There are scams now in the cash system too.

 

[lone wolf]

Could you imagine the cost of actually micro managing people?

the drug trade would flourish if those on assistance had to account for every single choice they made with regards to the money they were given. There would be so many children in foster care and the foster homes would also have to be micro managed and it would get impossible to manage, financially and manpower wise.

That (and the popular opinion among NIMBYs) is the reason for the scattergun approach they use now.

To listen to some people's attitudes about folk who have to use the social services, one might get the impression suicide and death camp are acceptable solutions. All that matters is the money.....

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

That (and the popular opinion among NIMBYs) is the reason for the scattergun approach they use now.

To listen to some people's attitudes about folk who have to use the social services, one might get the impression suicide and death camp are acceptable solutions. All that matters is the money.....

My daughter had to use it. It took a lot of convincing for her to do so. It is woefully inadaquate for people who actually need it. I know of several people who are scamming it too. It's those people who should be cutoff if they can be caught.

 

[Sal]

I don't know about a loan as such but certainly there has to be strings attached. I have to do D&A tests to go to work so it is only right that those collecting tax money have to do the same.

can't do that...drug addicted mums or dads is one reason...if you think they could care less about themselves or their kids you are kidding yourself...you can not cut them off they will find a way to get their dope but the kids are going to die

 

[Nuggler]

I believe the Ont. welfare dept. used to pay the landlord directly, until someone discovered it was against human rights.

whatever.................:roll:

 

[Sal]

I believe the Ont. welfare dept. used to pay the landlord directly, until someone discovered it was against human rights.

whatever.................:roll:

you mean they don't now?

aren't there geared to income housing where the government pays for a portion of it, and then the renter pays a portion of it?

 

[Twila]

Way back in the day, you would have your rent paid directly to the landlord IF you required extra money from welfare for unpaid rent.

IF you paid your rent and had no issues, then as a responsible adult you were treated as such. If you proved to be irresponsible, then you were treated as that.

 

[Nuggler]

you mean they don't now?

aren't there geared to income housing where the government pays for a portion of it, and then the renter pays a portion of it?

Dunno Sal, could be. Guess I could google it. I know some people who live in geared to income. Could ask them I guess.
Oh me......................

SAY, USLESS; do you pay your rent from the money the govt. gives ya, or do they pay it for you, cause they suspect you'd spend it on booze and drugs.?

I could approach it that way................tactful me that I are.

You got the wife knocked up AGAIN ?......What's that-----------6 now?..........How much per kid?

If you move out they get HOW MUCH more?

I just took the wrong turn at the crossroads. Poor career choice.

 

[lone wolf]

My daughter had to use it. It took a lot of convincing for her to do so. It is woefully inadaquate for people who actually need it. I know of several people who are scamming it too. It's those people who should be cutoff if they can be caught.

I tried my damndest to stay off it after the accident. WCB heard what the employer had to say - all seven excuses - and made it obvious I was going to be played forever. Sort of made me wish I had a Union to back me then. A few attempts to get back in the cab didn't work out, but then the option for school came up with Vocational Rehabilitation.

In retrospect, I should have dumped my stubborn streak and took the Disability because when school didn't work out I wound up frozen into Voc Rehab instead of the rollover into Disability. The only doctor close up here and still taking patients was also on Ontario's watch list - for putting able-bodied people on Disability. Voc Rehab ended and I was dumped onto General Welfare and made to requalify under newer, meaner and leaner conditions.

Cheats? They're out here alright. Nobody checks up on them. The one time I did get pissed off enough to call the Welfare Fraud Hotline, I spoke with someone whose accent was thick enough to be walked on. He told me they'd need the person's date of birth and account number before they could do anything about it. The fraud used four different names of which I was aware. How could anyone know the truth?

 

[Sal]

Dunno Sal, could be. Guess I could google it. I know some people who live in geared to income. Could ask them I guess.
Oh me......................

SAY, USLESS; do you pay your rent from the money the govt. gives ya, or do they pay it for you, cause they suspect you'd spend it on booze and drugs.?

I could approach it that way................tactful me that I are.

You got the wife knocked up AGAIN ?......What's that-----------6 now?..........How much per kid?

If you move out they get HOW MUCH more?

I just took the wrong turn at the crossroads. Poor career choice.

lol...well it sounded like you knew already...it's amazing actually that our tax dollars go into this yet we don't know how our own system works or how much gets paid out and to whom and what one needs in order to qualify. I have googled it before but it's tough to break it down. It's less than subsistence living that's for sure.

I think they like it like that...no one checks up on the distributor.

 

[Twila]

I use to scam welfare when my daughter was young. I worked under the table for a non profit society. They actually helped me earn a little extra money here and there so my daughter could have a birthday party like her friends or buy a gift for her friends birthday or be able to go to the movies with her friends or on special occasions we would go out for dinner.

Scammed and illegal and I don't feel bad about it at all. It was not my daughters fault that I made some poor choices that landed her and myself on welfare. She shouldn't be forced to suffer because of it.

 

[Sal]

I use to scam welfare when my daughter was young. I worked under the table for a non profit society. They actually helped me earn a little extra money here and there so my daughter could have a birthday party like her friends or buy a gift for her friends birthday or be able to go to the movies with her friends or on special occasions we would go out for dinner.

Scammed and illegal and I don't feel bad about it at all. It was not my daughters fault that I made some poor choices that landed her and myself on welfare. She shouldn't be forced to suffer because of it.

seems some want to force the woman to give birth and then either say give the kid up or screw ya both I ain't helping no one...

it's beyond me the lack of compassion shown

they are kids for f*ck sake...little tots and mum's struggling to do right for them with little to no means...

 

[JLM]

I have the feeling that funding the safety net is one of the biggest problems. Any money that goes to any endeavour has to come from one source................................people. Anyway I've got an idea (probably the same idea ten thousand others have had, but I'll float it anyway) Amusement tax!!! We all see people spend money on frivolous activities (I've done it myself) . So how would a 10% tax on things like tattoos work? God knows $millions are spend on them these days! Just a thought.

 

[Twila]

seems some want to force the woman to give birth and then either say give the kid up or screw ya both I ain't helping no one...

it's beyond me the lack of compassion shown

they are kids for f*ck sake...little tots and mum's struggling to do right for them with little to no means...

yes, some how young people are suppose to be able to read the future and know that some bad sh!t is coming down the pipe and NOT have children or some how dodge that bullet.

A punishing society creates a weary, cynical, suspicious, selfish population.

A compassionate society creates a population of individuals who are happy, healthy, and emotionally mature.

 

[Nuggler]

I use to scam welfare when my daughter was young. I worked under the table for a non profit society. They actually helped me earn a little extra money here and there so my daughter could have a birthday party like her friends or buy a gift for her friends birthday or be able to go to the movies with her friends or on special occasions we would go out for dinner.

Scammed and illegal and I don't feel bad about it at all. It was not my daughters fault that I made some poor choices that landed her and myself on welfare. She shouldn't be forced to suffer because of it.

Good for you Twila. You'd a starved on welfare only. And kids deserve a party, godammit !
I was lucky enough never to have to do it, but I would have in a freakin heartbeat if the occasion had arisen.
Kudos.

 

[Twila]

I have the feeling that funding the safety net is one of the biggest problems. Any money that goes to any endeavour has to come from one source................................people. Anyway I've got an idea (probably the same idea ten thousand others have had, but I'll float it anyway) Amusement tax!!! We all see people spend money on frivolous activities (I've done it myself) . So how would a 10% tax on things like tattoos work? God knows $millions are spend on them these days! Just a thought.

So you want to charge and punish people who want a tattoo an extra 10% because....?

 

[Nuggler]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I said deluded, not dilaudid.

 

[JLM]

So you want to charge and punish people who want a tattoo an extra 10% because....?

I don't think "punish" is the right word- maybe I'm wrong but I was just thinking of getting the money to feed and house people from a source that would do the least harm. Anyway it was just a question.

 

[Sal]

yes, some how young people are suppose to be able to read the future and know that some bad sh!t is coming down the pipe and NOT have children or some how dodge that bullet.

A punishing society creates a weary, cynical, suspicious, selfish population.

A compassionate society creates a population of individuals who are happy, healthy, and emotionally mature.

there are some bizarre attitudes out there about welfare mums and ripping off the system and the luxurious life they live

then there's the punish them for having sex crowd, punish them and the babies...let the babies starve...that'll teach 'em

I don't think people like that have ever experienced love in a meaningful way, people that are cruel are missing something in their makeup and I have zero patience for it in my old age

compassion though Twila, what does compassion spring from?