Why would anyone trust the Liberals, the NDP or the Bloc?
- Thread starter The Old Medic
- Start date
Shows what you know about how our government works.... in a minority government, in order to have it stable and last, it is required for parties to form alliances and work together to get things done, because no one party holds a majority to do it on their own.
Back when the Liberals ran the government, the Conservatives worked with and dealt with the Bloc and NDP on a number of occasions in order to get bills they supported passed.
The fact that the Conservatives continually tried to go at it all on their own in a minority government, and continually fought all the other parties as if they held a Majority, clearly showed that they were not responsible enough to lead in such an environment and had no idea how to operate in a minority government. The other parties did exactly what they were supposed to do, and your fear mongering over a Coalition with the Bloc is a lame attempt to try and win an argument when the Cons did either the exact same thing, or very similar many times in the past.
Why would anyone trust the Liberals, NDP or Bloc?
With the long list of corruption, lies to the public, broken promises, MP's committing shady deals & scandals while in power, shifting more stimulus money to areas that voted Conservative then areas that voted another party.... why would anybody trust the Conservatives is what you should be asking.
Either way, what's done is done..... I'm willing to toss all the crap the Conservatives done while in Minority aside to give them one last chance at running things as a Majority. Perhaps everyone else should do the same in regards to the other parties.
Keep in mind, you can't blame the leadership of one party based on what the other parties did or didn't do.... hence "Leadership"..... and if the Conservative's screw something up during their Majority rule, you can't go and blame anybody other then themselves. This is what they wanted, now let's see what they do with this new found power.
I'm not getting my hopes up though.
But they did lead in that exact environment and as much by using their capacity to divide and conquer. The 'opposition' parties paid lip service to the many opportunities that they had to topple the gvt, but always chickened-out when it came down to brass tacks.
All the Bloc, Libs and NDP did was thump their chests about how they were going to invoke a non-confidence vote.... As it stands they had many years to get it done and when they finally did muster up the courage, the Bloc was systematically dismantled and the liberals almost wiped out.
It appears that Harper was right after all in suggesting that Canadians didn't want a coalition gvt considering the decimation of the natural governing party and the representatives that want to tear the country apart.
No one can beat the Liberal party for corruption, lies, deceit and fraud... No one.
Why leave the Conservatives out of that? Why would you trust them? They tried pretty much the same thing when they were the opposition during a Liberal minority government, even wrote a letter to the G-G about it. Another poster has given a link in support of that claim a few posts back.
I see in your profile that you're in Kentucky, originally from Oregon, and your political views are Conservative. I presume from that that you're an American. I think from what you've posted that you don't quite understand how the Canadian system works. It's very different from the American system, and nobody in opposition, not the Liberals, the Bloc, the NDP, or the Conservatives, has done anything illegitimate within the rules of our parliamentary system. A lot of people think they have, but that's just ignorance, a lot of Canadians have no better an understanding of it than you do. And as Winston Churchill observed, the good politician is the one you agree with.
Because Harper hasn't burned the Reighstag yet, although he's probably working on a sneaky way to achieve the same effect, so people still put hope into parties opposed to Christonazi dictatorship elected by a minority.
How many Canadians know that in a situation like this, their last and only check-and-balance option of hope is to go to the Queen?
Other have raised this point earlier, but the Conservative party, under Mr Harper did the same thing to the minority Liberal gov't in the days of the Gomery Inquiry: tried to make common cause with the NDP and the Bloc to bring down Mr Martin's gov't. Only floor crossings by Scott Brison and Belinda Stronach saved the Liberals in the short term, and they weren't enough to save them in the longer run.
Now attacking those parties on the basis of the credibility on issues like the deficit/debt/"stimulus bailouts may have a little more meat: all 3 parties criticized the Conservatives for not doing enough on the economic stimulus front, then attacked the gov't for going back into debt... as if they would have been any better.
One could also attack them on foreign policy issues but that gets more into where do your beliefs reside: that Canada should be isolationist, essentially leaving all international issues to the whims of the UN and withdraw from organizations such as NATO or do we live up to our obligations and side with/support friendly gov'ts abroad?
I won't argue about issues like the Bloc turning into a parody of itself and becoming more pigs at the Ottawa trough rather than working towards an independent Quebec, the NDP realistically being a socialist party that's afraid to admit it, lest they scare off the elecorate or that the Liberals have done anything they could to retain and re-acquire power... the only thing I will add is that the Conservatives are almost identical to the Liberals in many regards, as Mr Harper proved in naming his first cabinet 5 years ago, appointing Michael Fortier to the senate and a cabinet post and rewarding David Emerson with a cabinet post for crossing the floor before the House even sat.
Retired Canadian Soldier had it right when he said everyone that goes to Ottawa either gets the stink on them or is ineffectual... and I can see how it can happen. Politics is the art of making deals: you support my economic initiative and I compromise my values and support your social one because I think the economics are more important... and so on down the line until perspective is lost on why you are making the deals, and you think you have to keep making them to do what you think is best for the country... except your view on what is best is affected by holding onto power to affect the changes you think need to be made. Its why I both admire and despise politicians: what they do is important and necessary, but I am far too idealistic (as I think most people are and certainly those who post here) to make the compromises needed to keep things moving.
I believe that I was insulted for suggesting this to had happened.
Old Medic might need to change his meds.
I love to see how many excuses people will make; how they will twist the facts; and just how prejudiced they are against one party or another.
Yes, the Conservatives cooperated with other parties while a minority. ANY minority government MUST do that, or they simply can not be the Government. BUT, the Conservatives did not bargain away their basic principles in the process.
The Liberals claim to stand for everything that the Bloc is against, especially a united Canada forever. They also stand against the basic principles of the NDP. Yet they were willing to grant both the Bloc and the NDP specific positions in the Cabinet and various government agencies, that would ENHANCE the positions and power of those parties.
The ONLY reason why those parties agreed to do this was simply to bring down the Conservatives, who had received significantly more votes from the people than any of those other parties.
And, the Liberals BROKERED those kinds of deals TWICE, in less than 4 years, which cost Canada many millions of dollars, disrupted government, and eventually led to their virtual demise as a party.
The majority of Canadians finally saw them for exactly what they were: a power mad party that actually had no principles at all.
What amazes me is that so many of you are willing to excuse the NDP (who also betrayed virtually every principle that they supposedly believed in, in making that alliance with the Liberals). Instead, all too many of you voted for duplicity, encouraging politicians to act in a manner that you then condemn.
Why are the parties like this?
They act like this because way too many of the people, like so many on this forum, will not hold them accountable. Instead, the people just say, "well that's the way it is", and they blindly go out and support more of the same corruption, the same mismanagement and the same venality.
Instead of actually holding those that do these thing responsible, ALL of them responsible, the turn around and reward the Politicians that slip the mickey to them.
The leadership of the NDP is just as corrupt as the leadership of the Liberals and the Bloc, but the voters actually REWARDED the NDP for trying hard to screw the people.
You wonder why politicians act like they do? The answer is really simple. They do it because you not only accept it, but you actually encourage them to behave like this, by voting them to the highest level they have ever enjoyed..
Yes, the Conservatives cooperated with other parties while a minority. ANY minority government MUST do that, or they simply can not be the Government. BUT, the Conservatives did not bargain away their basic principles in the process.
The Liberals claim to stand for everything that the Bloc is against, especially a united Canada forever. They also stand against the basic principles of the NDP. Yet they were willing to grant both the Bloc and the NDP specific positions in the Cabinet and various government agencies, that would ENHANCE the positions and power of those parties.
The ONLY reason why those parties agreed to do this was simply to bring down the Conservatives, who had received significantly more votes from the people than any of those other parties.
And, the Liberals BROKERED those kinds of deals TWICE, in less than 4 years, which cost Canada many millions of dollars, disrupted government, and eventually led to their virtual demise as a party.
The majority of Canadians finally saw them for exactly what they were: a power mad party that actually had no principles at all.
What amazes me is that so many of you are willing to excuse the NDP (who also betrayed virtually every principle that they supposedly believed in, in making that alliance with the Liberals). Instead, all too many of you voted for duplicity, encouraging politicians to act in a manner that you then condemn.
Why are the parties like this?
They act like this because way too many of the people, like so many on this forum, will not hold them accountable. Instead, the people just say, "well that's the way it is", and they blindly go out and support more of the same corruption, the same mismanagement and the same venality.
Instead of actually holding those that do these thing responsible, ALL of them responsible, the turn around and reward the Politicians that slip the mickey to them.
The leadership of the NDP is just as corrupt as the leadership of the Liberals and the Bloc, but the voters actually REWARDED the NDP for trying hard to screw the people.
You wonder why politicians act like they do? The answer is really simple. They do it because you not only accept it, but you actually encourage them to behave like this, by voting them to the highest level they have ever enjoyed..
Ah, so now you're qualifying and twisting your original assertion.
I don't recall any 'bargain away their basic principles' weasel words in your original post, nor in your claim that I must be dense to suggest that the conservatives had attempted to do such a thing.
Densify yourself, buddy.
Just so you know where I am coming from, I supported the Reform and then Conservatives in all the elections since Mulroney left office. I felt they were the best of a bad bunch (I mean seriously, Stockwell Day as PM? Thank all thats holy that it never happened!). Overall,I distrust the tendancy in this country to veer away from the center to the left, as it has almost continuously since Trudeau was elected and as someone raised in Alberta, I have never seen anything the least bit attractive in the way the NDP or Liberals addressed issues of concern to me, and those around me. At the same time, if we want to talk about the past, we need to be honest about it and not try to revise or gloss over parts that we find less palatable. I would never vote for jack Layton's party and I will probably never vote for a federal Liberal, but that doesn't mean the Conservatives can do no wrong:, it just means they are the least offensive to me.
The bottom line is they are all tarred with the same brush, concern #1. their longevity in power, concern #2 their potential big fat pension, which they get if they can hang in there for six years. :smile:
You don't have a clue, do you. The cons did the exact same thing, try to arrange a coalition and make deals with the NDP and Bloc, when the Libs held a minority government and they were tentatively the official opposition. It's the way our Government system works, period. Either educate yourself about HOW our system of Parliament works or STFU, because you're coming across as a whining conservative lapdog.
The plan was for a Liberal lead coalition government with the NDP. There was absolutely no plan for the Bloc to be given cabinet positions. All three parties have admitted this.
Also, in a minority parliament situation-or really any situation compromises will have to be made. No one gets 100% of what they want.
The NDP and the Bloc are actually very similar in many ways separatism aside. They are both social democratic parties which is why it was so easy for Quebec voters to switch from the Bloc to the NDP. It's hard to really say what the Liberals stand for these days or for the past 5-10 years really. They tend to go where the wind blows a little too late. The Liberals under Trudeau offered the possibility of a coalition government with the NDP in 1972, Pearson also put through universal health care which was an NDP idea. So the Liberals do not necessarily stand against everything the NDP stands for.
The Progressive Conservatives did bargain away their principles when they joined with the Alliance/Reform parties. Joe Clark resigned after the unification as the new party did not stand for the same things he did.
Re: Why would anyone tust the Liberals, the NDP or the Bloc?
Too funny, cruel but funny.
So you are admitting that your party and the separatists are both a bunch of freeloaders?
Too funny, cruel but funny.
So you are admitting that your party and the separatists are both a bunch of freeloaders?
Re: Why would anyone tust the Liberals, the NDP or the Bloc?
No, I am not. Where does it imply that?
No, I am not. Where does it imply that?
Re: Why would anyone tust the Liberals, the NDP or the Bloc?
Social democrats? AKA freeloaders.
Social democrats? AKA freeloaders.