Whats your take on Unions?

[countryboy]

Todays consumer can be made to buy **** in a hamburger bun, so I don't really think there's any problem steering the twits toward the junk that WalMart imports.
WalMart is not a success it's a disgrace and a destroyer of small and medium sized businesses and a looter of towns and cities across the globe. That it exists at all is a giant crime against humanity.

Agree totally on your hamburger example. Wal-Mart is the largest retailer in the world but it's no crime that it exists. "We" caused that to happen, all perfectly legal. It's all about "us"...the consumers. Same with the hambugers/fast food.

Until something comes along that is better value for the consumer - in terms they will understand and respond to - not much will change.

Wal-Mart is not a bad company...they've just applied the rules of business very intelligently and come up with a winning formula - sell lots of cheap goods to lots of cheap consumers. Simple.

Smart companies are free to compete with them, and many do. Outservicing Wal-Mart (on certain items) is not impossible...same with the food - making a better, more nutritious burger is a no-brainer...you could hardly make it less nutritious than some of the well-known chains! It might cost more, and not all consumers would buy the better burger because they don't recognize the value in it. Or they can't afford it, because they have to pay union dues...:lol: (just kidding!)...

But this is true of any product or any company. As an example, I used to work in the industrial end of the paint business...working for a large, multi-national company and selling to factories...products like machinery paints, furniture finishes, and such. I was working for the "Wal-Mart" of the paint business in the sense that it was the giant company.

However, I had to compete with (unsuccessfully, in some cases) smaller, regional companies who could respond much quicker to formulation changes, pricing situations, and even delivery modes than I could...I had to abide by the rules and policies of the giant corporation. The local ones could change a policy (or a paint formulation) on the spot. The local/regional enjoyed a very healthy collective share of the business by "outservicing" the big guy(s). Market focus really does work.

 

[petros]

view the employer as the enemy and that they are trying to reduce their wages and benefits

Employers are stumbling all over themselves to pay you top dollar?

Yes or no?

 

[petros]

However, I had to compete with (unsuccessfully, in some cases) smaller, regional companies who could respond much quicker to formulation changes, pricing situations, and even delivery modes than I could...I had to abide by the rules and policies of the giant corporation. The local ones could change a policy (or a paint formulation) on the spot. The local/regional enjoyed a very healthy collective share of the business by "outservicing" the big guy(s). Market focus really does work.

I see plenty of local products featured at Wal-Mart whenever somebody gets off their ass and produces instead of consumes. Whether that product remains on the shelf all depends on the producer's supply capacity Vs. consumer afforability.

Greed makes or breaks the equation not the product or demand.

 

[petros]

If people weren't getting screwed with or without unions we'd have no labour laws or labour boards which are very busy offices. No work shortage at the labour board.

 

[darkbeaver]

I'm not part of the union, but my wife is. I can tell you that the working environment between the employer and the employee is hostile. It's the union mentality. Like JLM said, the unions and it's members view the employer as the enemy and that they are trying to reduce their wages and benefits. On the other hand, the employer views the union as an organization out to milk every penny from them.

It's a perpetual tug-of-war.

The problem with unions and employers (management in particular) is that they are all greedy and the fire is fueled by the incessant need by shareholders to produce a good quarterly statement.

The unions problem is that they don't know when to stop. Every time the contract is up and needs to be renegotiated, they ask for more... EVEN WHEN THE COMPANY IS NOT MAKING MONEY! Over here on the west coast, the forest industry has been wiped out. There have been many mill closures and one in particular on Vancouver Island is put on idle indefinitely. The union would not back down on concessions and the company was unable to operate in the current conditions. What pisses me off about unions is that they would rather let the company go bankrupt than reach a lesser deal and wait for a better day. So we have this massive staring contest to see if the union or the employer would blink first. In the end, the company put down their best take it or leave it offer, but the union refused. the mill still sits idle and people are out of jobs.

The thing about management is that they don't care about the health of the company. All they care about is how well they are going to do in the next quarter. Even if a company is running at a loss, they still have the balls to give themselves a bonus. Of course, the unions always catch wind of this and use it as propaganda to make the company enemy #1. The other thing is, management doesn't understand the concept that if it's employees are taking a wage cut, they in turn, should also take a salary cut. Instead, you have employees taking massive concessions in benefits and wages, and management getting a fat bonus for successfully negotiating the deal??? That would make my blood boil too.

This perpetual tug-of-war creates the hostile environment. The employee hates the company and does not, and will not, perform their best. They will actually perform below par because they know that it would take the company tremendous effort to have them fired. As an example, look at Air Canada and Westjet.... one is unionized and one is not. Can you guess which company treats the customer better?

OMG, this is turning out to be a rant, but the point is that management and the employees need to put the company first above all else. I think management salaries and employee contracts should be reviewed every year based on the company's results. If the company posts a loss for the year, nobody gets a bonus and nobody gets a raise. Period... end of story. If the company gets to the point of bankruptcy then both sides should concede on benefits and wages. When the company recovers, what was conceded should be given back. This is almost like a scale where you have management on side and employees on the other. You put something on side, you have to put something on the other. Similarly, if you take something off one side, you have to take something off the other... or the whole thing teeters and eventually tumbles.

What you suggest is called, collective bargaining. All you have to do to understand why collective bargaining came about is to read of the struggle between labour and capital, every point you made was studied in great detail more than a a hundred years ago to address the problems inherent in labour capital marriages. These inherent problems are exactly the same today. If a nation does not erect barriers to the transfer of capital the capital will flow unempeeded out of the community in which it was generated and it will flow right back to the head office without making any stops in your community, you lose, the community loses your children and grandchildren lose and you get WalMart which drives in the last spike and you wake up someday in a ghost town. The necessary balance provided by collective bargaining ensured community growth through the labourer who supported local businesses, now he supports WalMart, they don't live where you do, they don't even know you exist and they could care less while they vacuum up the last bit of assets in your town.

 

[TenPenny]

The necessary balance provided by collective bargaining ensured community growth through the labourer who supported local businesses, now he supports WalMart, they don't live where you do, they don't even know you exist and they could care less while they vacuum up the last bit of assets in your town.

It was funny, when GM was shutting down the Oshawa plant, there were lots of 'buy local, save jobs' bumper stickers on the GM workers' cars....in the parking lot of WalMart.

 

[darkbeaver]

I see plenty of local products featured at Wal-Mart whenever somebody gets off their ass and produces instead of consumes. Whether that product remains on the shelf all depends on the producer's supply capacity Vs. consumer afforability.

Greed makes or breaks the equation not the product or demand.

Supply and demand, the nuts and bolts, capital must by definition work to throttle supply this invariably inflates demand and price. This is best understood when we examine the case of hidden oil reserves kept from the market to artificially inflate the unit price, far outside the labour costs. Labour availability is similarly but oppositely throttled up instead of down by unrealistic minimum wages enhanced unemployment and mechanization, this drives the demand for jobs, at an increased cost to labour, (less wages to labour ultimately means greater personal cost to that labourer who has to work longer and harder for the same loaf of bread) hunger is the great labour motive force, as always. Mr Mullooney promised hundreds of thousands of good jobs, and he delivered, but he did not mention even once that you would need three of them to pay the bills. There hasn't been an increase in Canadians take home pay since the early 70s, thanks to education and legislation paid for by the bankers.

 

[Johnnny]

Ive only ever been in one union, that was when i was 16 and got a job as a grocery clerk.

When i worked out west and hopefully work again its all contracts, and i like the contracts. Besides what i owed the government and the BC health plan all my money was mine and not a penny went to unions

 

[petros]

This is best understood when we examine the case of hidden oil reserves kept from the market to artificially inflate the unit price, far outside the labour costs.

That makes me laugh but hard. Maintenance and labour is a fixed cost set at contract or on the auction block around $5 a bbl.

 

[cdn_bc_ca]

Employers are stumbling all over themselves to pay you top dollar?

Yes or no?

I think you should direct that question to the investors working at the big banking houses who got TARP money and are also paying out 21 million dollar bonus cheques... the reason? Because if they don't, the next employer will.

big bonuses at bailed out banks got you down move your money: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance

In my case, I don't know because I'm not looking for a job. But I know I've got some good skills... I know VMS and COBOL. HA HA!!

What you suggest is called, collective bargaining

Which part? Sure. The employees reach an agreement for say 3 years with measly increases in wage and benefits, but management is not restricted as to what payout they receive each year (which could be in the millions)? Collective bargaining only applies to the employees, I'm talking about management as well.

It seems to me that collective bargaining, in todays environment, is ignorant to the health and well-being of the company. That's the problem.

 

[darkbeaver]

It was funny, when GM was shutting down the Oshawa plant, there were lots of 'buy local, save jobs' bumper stickers on the GM workers' cars....in the parking lot of WalMart.

Isn't tragedy always funny like that TenPenny. If it was a solid old time labour union there would have been not one unionized workers car in that lot. Like I said before stupidity and corruption have crept into every crack in the social order and unions are no exception. Outlaw them entirely and see what the outcome is.

 

[petros]

I think you should direct that question to the investors working at the big banking houses who got TARP money and are also paying out 21 million dollar bonus cheques... the reason? Because if they don't, the next employer will.

Govt, labour and investor are all being robbed blind. In reality there are very few heads that need to roll but once lopped the remaining will drop in line REALLY fast.

Historically shots would have been fired and the bankers lynched by the public years ago.

 

[darkbeaver]

I think you should direct that question to the investors working at the big banking houses who got TARP money and are also paying out 21 million dollar bonus cheques... the reason? Because if they don't, the next employer will.

big bonuses at bailed out banks got you down move your money: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance

In my case, I don't know because I'm not looking for a job. But I know I've got some good skills... I know VMS and COBOL. HA HA!!



Which part? Sure. The employees reach an agreement for say 3 years with measly increases in wage and benefits, but management is not restricted as to what payout they receive each year (which could be in the millions)? Collective bargaining only applies to the employees, I'm talking about management as well.

It seems to me that collective bargaining, in todays environment, is ignorant to the health and well-being of the company. That's the problem.

Our government, bank employees everyone, reduced corporate taxation specifically to reward themselves. You can find managements who are interested only in short term gains to meet stockholder expectations, the list of companys stripped and pushed under by this method far exceeds those whose union was stupid enough to have milked the brains and guts out of their cow gig. Remember it's your own hands that feed you not the nonexistent social workers in the head office.

 

[darkbeaver]

Govt, labour and investor are all being robbed blind. In reality there are very few heads that need to roll but once lopped the remaining will drop in line REALLY fast.

Historically shots would have been fired and the bankers lynched by the public years ago.

Yes but young people today are little pink fingered panzies who play with dolls and are only virtually alive anyway, when I was a kid our dad would wake us up at three in the morning to lick the highway clean and beat us for breakfast, we appreciated the interest, you try to tell a young person that today and they won't believe you.:lol:

 

[Johnnny]

and are only virtually alive anyway

that requires a seperate topic

 

[countryboy]

I see plenty of local products featured at Wal-Mart whenever somebody gets off their ass and produces instead of consumes. Whether that product remains on the shelf all depends on the producer's supply capacity Vs. consumer afforability.

Greed makes or breaks the equation not the product or demand.

Sure, there are lots of local products at Wal-Mart...the fact that they're there in the first place is based on the demand from consumers. It they didn't want them, they wouldn't be there. And if Wal-Mart couldn't make a fair buck on them, they wouldn't be there. Ability to supply and consumer affordability are only two of the things that influence whether or not they remain on the shelf.

I think the average consumer has the ability to think on their own, and they do make the final buying decision. I think you're saying the consumer's buying decision is made entirely on price. Not true. Unless there is a demand for the product, which could be based on anything from colour to technical innovation - and lots of "needs" in between - it won't sell at any price.

Just consider things like MP3/4 players...does the consumer want the cheapest one, or the one that has the most features? Yes to both...it depends on the customer. Cars? Same thing - if they all wanted the "best price deal" only, they'd all by buying Kia products and nothing else. Clothing? Furniture?

You call getting the best value for your consumer dollar "greed?" I call it smart buying.

 

[GreenFish66]

I've worked in both union and none Union places .in various positions .I'm Independent now ..Thank God..(4 now )....but I've always prefered the none union (besides the extra 2-4 $ which get's eaten up in union fees and other small added fees).

I found with Unions is it's just another middle man between you and the boss.Too much politics and constant gossip and squabbling ...

Another problem with unions, is when the employee gets in the polar middle postion between the union and boss ..Unions will ultimately almost always , 8 x out 10 vote in the favour of the Big Bossman .Leaving the person feeling teamed up on ..Beaten down ..Systematically discriminated against..Or not included in talks about Him/Her at all.

Most Union leaders are buddy buddy with the boss..Mostly older or lazier (not to tie the two together )..Too comfortable with their position ..Only time Union leaders (unions)fight for their fellow workers is when it's contract time or elections..Only because it's in their own personal interest ..like any gov/biz/3rd party organization...

Anyway ..Rules are so well establised now that Unions are not necessary ...Just sign the forms Union Rep .The company never has extra money to bargain with..2% and healthcare is all you'll get ..Cuz that's the law.....If you strike for more..You'll be legislated back to work...If the company doesn't like the plan ..The contract doesnt get signed.

Company always wins cuz it's their place..Union or not..(nowadays anyway since gov took all the peoples power away )

Unions are a glorified Complaints department for shady Big business practises..

The outcome is always predictable and in the companies favour .As documented in the well establised rules and Labour laws...Regardless how hard the Union rep pencil pushers push ...They will always sign on the dotted line to keep their jobs at the expense of the new temps

 

[cdn_bc_ca]

Historically shots would have been fired and the bankers lynched by the public years ago.

I look to you to lead this charge!!! ;-)

 

[GreenFish66]

Our government, bank employees everyone, reduced corporate taxation specifically to reward themselves. You can find managements who are interested only in short term gains to meet stockholder expectations, the list of companys stripped and pushed under by this method far exceeds those whose union was stupid enough to have milked the brains and guts out of their cow gig. Remember it's your own hands that feed you not the nonexistent social workers in the head office.

We must always remember The B.S. Games (Bailout .Stimulus)..Lest we forget

1 - Gas/oil/house/commodity...prices.. ect ..soar to double what they should be, indicating the bubble was about to burst with a lot of hot air from Wall street ..Just before market crashs/End of Bush Rep. Presidency

2 - After Shady lending practises many( insiders knowing the bubble was going to burst/Adding Hot Air/Holding the pin)fraudulently sell off over inflated properties and assests...

3 - Market Crash becomes Crisis

4 - Big Biz/Banks are Too big too fail after sticking people with over priced properties and overly laxed loaning practises ..

5 - Big Brother Gov Bails Big Biz /Banks/Wall street out , with tax payer(the ppls) money, even though Main Street was already hurting due to over inflated market/consumer prices.

6 - Bailout/ Stimulus(B.S) plan is formed linking /tieing Obama's administration to the whole Scam .It becomes a U.S/Global bailout/stimulus..Willingly or not ..

7 - Big Gov/ Big Biz after ripping peoples futures away, use money to invest in the Crashed market THEY helped create..Leaving a Big Deficit

- Sorry no money left for the struggling Slave drones .... have to pay down the deficit ..

It's just plain B.S. Games ....It is unjust/ Simply Sad ..

Let us never forget the facts,...The Truth ...Wall street with Big Biz/Big Govs help screwed over ALL the people(Globally)....

It's All part of the Capitalistic market game...

The market lacks heart...

Solution - A well being / environmental indicator should be added into/along side the Market system/leader board, to help ensure, this never happens again...

Johnny is right ..That requires a separte topic

 

[countryboy]

Employers are stumbling all over themselves to pay you top dollar?

Yes or no?

"TOP dollar?" What the hell does that mean? How about "reasonable pay?" Good employers do in set pay rates very competitively in order to attract and keep good employees. Eventually, if you prove your worth to the company - through performance on the job - you can certainly end up earning "top dollar." And if you don't get it from that employer, you - as a top performer - are free to go out and seek alternative employment with a company that appreciates your top performance and is willing to pay for it.

Just be sure that your definition of "top performer" is the same as your employer.