What would you do if the US invaded?
- Thread starter RoseMartland
- Start date
He can't. So he just keeps saying the same thing. What else can he do?
I shall give you the role of the Black Knight Risus...
Enjoy!
YouTube - Monty Python And The Holy Grail- The Black Knight
I just don't understand why some Canadians still rejoice in the war of 1852, acting like they inherited the blood of the guys killing and whatnot.
I have as much connection to that as to the formation of the Bering Straights.
I do enjoy booze though. Must be my irish roots.
I have as much connection to that as to the formation of the Bering Straights.
I do enjoy booze though. Must be my irish roots.
Seriously?
I'd shrug and get out of the way and wait for the mosquitoes to drive them nuts while their own political process figures out a way to draw and quarter their President for messing up the flow of trade.
In particular with an axe to grind would be the governor of Michigan. We already know that Canada and the US are the world's two greatest trading partners in terms of volume and value, but did you know that if Ontario and Michigan were to each split from their respective countries, then just between the two of them they'd be the world's greatest trading partners?
They don't want to invade, and their own analysis have told them it's not worth it unless an enemy were to nuke or gas every single Canadian, leaving the northern half of the continent empty, such that someone has to go up there to keep an eye out for waves of invaders landing from Sri Lanka, whereupon they send forth interpreters to carefully point out and explain to the Tamils where the border is.
It's too vast an area to cover with too much geographical diversity having too many places for guerrillas to hide, and if you think their troops get frustrated telling who's the enemy in places like Vietnam and Iraq, wait until they have to deal with an enemy who looks like their cousin ("Oh wait... that *is* my cousin") and who looks, acts and speaks so much like you that you would seriously never be able to relax worrying about sabotage. (There's 600,000 Canadian passport holders living in LA alone).
That being said, the US *does* have a standing policy which is ready to go at any time, and which they've Never Made A Secret Of; you just have to go up to one of their diplomats and ask.
It's that, if the *government* in Ottawa were to collapse in a way where it could not pull itself back together and things start breaking down such that not even the provincial governments can hold their territories together, then they'll march up with a force strong enough to plug-in as a provisional government and then they'll stand there with their arms folded until the Canadians figure out how to pull a federal government back together.
The won't care if it's a constitutional monarchy, they won't care if it's a French-style republic, they won't care if it's copied from Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain or the frikkin' Confederacy of the Six Nations as long as it's democratic, and as long as it can maintain order.
When the Canadians have recovered, they'll leave. It's just too much paperwork to do it any other way.
And before you feel picked on, understand that this planed policy extends to ALL members of NATO.
As far as they're concerned, if you're NATO, and if your government collapses and you can't reassemble one yourself, then it's tough love, and consider yourself lucky they care enough for it to be a democracy that comes back, and not some dickey dictatorship like they'll prop up in some other countries they don't give a damn about as long big-business isn't complaining.
The only time it almost happened was Italy one year, and the fun part is when you ask the diplomat if the reverse is true...
"If the government in Washington collapses, and the States can't maintain order, are all the other members of NATO expected to assemble a force to occupy Washington with a provisional government while Americans get their act together?"
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Not quite. Think of US land acquisitions during and after the Spanish-American war of 1898. In fact, the word 'imperialism itself was first coined by the American Anti-Imperialist League, founded in 1898 to oppose the Spanish-American War and American brutalities extending as far as the Phillipines. This is not to say of course that imperialism did not exist prior to that war, but simply rather that Americans were the first to become aware of not just empire, but the ideology behind it. Looking at it that way, Americans deserve applause for that (Canadians were still lauding the British Empire unconscious of the ideology on which it was based).
You can read more on it here too.
We also have to acknowledge cultural imperialism, subtler yet more insidious than other forms of imperialism. Gramsci and, more recently, Robert Phillipson have analysed it in great depth. While the US and the UK are both guilty of culturla imperialism, Canada is no angel in that regards either. Britain's arm of culturla imperialism is mainly the British Council. The US' is mainly USAID; and Canada's is mainly driven by the Canadian International Development Agency.
I don't think this is going off-topic, hope not. The OP obviously has not read a real novel written by a IMO great author that is part satire, part futuristic speculative 'what if?', memorable characters and a has, as its basis the "USUK" (yes, its very funny too) Alliance between Britain & the US which leads to US Marines landing in Britain to "protect" the Brit's from invasion by an actually non-existent foreign power. Daphne du Maurier's last novel "Rule Britannia" - my edition is shown as © 1972 by Daphne du Maurier, Doubleday & Company, Inc.
I read this in the seventies and have reread it quite a few times since and it has come to mind a lot in this thread, as it mainly focuses on a group of small town inhabitants (most of them eccentric of course - but aren't most Canadians? :lol
, their reactions and then revolt against what becomes an invasion. I highly recommend it as a good read and fictionally pertinent to a very speculative fictional topic, (keeping in mind that in the upper-class Du Maurier world of the first half of the twentieth century "those demned Yanks!" would be regarded and treated as such merely because they were American and not Brits. Just as Canadians, Australians, etc., were regarded as "those demned colonials!".).
No preview unfortunately, but reviews and overview at Google Books: Rule Britannia - Google Books
Rule Britannia - Google Books
I read this in the seventies and have reread it quite a few times since and it has come to mind a lot in this thread, as it mainly focuses on a group of small town inhabitants (most of them eccentric of course - but aren't most Canadians? :lol
, their reactions and then revolt against what becomes an invasion. I highly recommend it as a good read and fictionally pertinent to a very speculative fictional topic, (keeping in mind that in the upper-class Du Maurier world of the first half of the twentieth century "those demned Yanks!" would be regarded and treated as such merely because they were American and not Brits. Just as Canadians, Australians, etc., were regarded as "those demned colonials!".).No preview unfortunately, but reviews and overview at Google Books: Rule Britannia - Google Books
Rule Britannia - Google Books
Had you opened your eyes, you'd have noticed a cool and nifty poll to go with that one, along with the founding of the Bear Nation. Where's the king of that nation in this thread? I think you need a massage, do some yoga, or maybe some tai chi chuan. Or maybe you could read some poetry or listen to some Baroque before going to bed a night. Eat more veggies. It'll help you loosen up a little.
If you guys participated in burning the White House as you said, then you also were responsible for dropping the Atomic Bomb on Japan. Just following your logic.
That would be # 617 on my list of things to worry about and right now I'm trying to contend with the top 5.
It's not quite like that. What would be more like what happened would be if a Canadian bomber had been order by the US to drop A-Bomb on Japan.
In 1812, Canada was legally a colony of Britain, but settlers had been there as long as Americans had been settling their part of the continent... namely, hundreds of years, such that the colonialists had basically cut their roots from Europe for centuries.
However, the *administration* of government was still being driven out of London, so Sherman marched north, figuring he'd be welcomed with open arms by colonialists being liberated from British control, which was not an altogether unreasonable presumption, except for a few historical issues that were somehow overlooked.
Specifically, when the American Revolution happened, what's not talked about a lot is that fully one third of American colonialists did not support it. What's also not talked about much is why not all of the colonies joined in, because there were more than 13 colonies. To the north there was Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Newfoundland.
Newfoundland never joined the revolution because they were so remote they might not have heard about it, plus they were very comfortable doing what they did, which was catch and sell fish to the Brits. Quebec would have joined the revolution in the blink of an eye if there hadn't been a language barrier, and I don't know why Nova Scotia never joined in; probably for the same reason as Newfoundland, namely, they were comfortable being fishermen selling their catch to England.
When it became clear that the revolution was going to succeed, there was a point where Boston harbor had as many as 300 ships anchored and waiting to take wealthy loyalists who could afford the passage a trip back to England.
But a lot of them could not afford the trip back, and even if they could, they wouldn't have had any land to go back to, so those ones packed up and headed north.
Some of them went east into Nova Scotia, which was larger then. The areas that the Loyalists settled into eventually split off from Nova Scotia to form New Brunswick.
Some went more towards the center, into Quebec, which was much larger then. Those Empire Loyalists settled in-and-around the Niagra peninsula, and eventually resulted in creating Ontario, split off from what had been Quebec territory.
When Sherman marched north, he forgot that a lot of the people he was heading forth to liberate had explicitly moved there to *not* be part of the United States, so when the British governing authority put out a call to arms for recruits to defend the invasion, they found no shortage of volunteers.
In terms of lines of authority it was indeed a British command, and Canadians will insist on it being noted that the grunts actually doing the fighting were Canadian, but if you *really* want to dig into it, what Sherman was fighting included a lot of American expats who'd been happy with the status quo and who hadn't wanted to see the Revolution succeed... so they had a bit of a chip on their shoulders. It might have been the first time America marched forth to liberate a people, presuming they'd be welcome, only to be surprised to find that they were not welcome.
Jumping forward to 1867... the issue was that British North America had been watching with concern the American Civil War, and were very concerned to see how it ended because, oops, did they tell you that the governing administration of British North America had been supporting the south? The *people* supported the north, but the *governing administration* had been supporting the south, and at the end of it, the Yankees found themselves with the largest standing army in the world at the time... all seasoned combat vets... which is what you have to be scared of.
So, some home-grown Canadians of the educated class freaked at what would happen if Uncle Sam were to decide to turn their seasoned, standing army around and march it north to settle an old score from 1812, so in a mad-dash they scrambled to do a couple of things, including pull most of the key executive decision making processes for managing defense over to this side of the Atlantic so they wouldn't have to wait for the 2-3 week turnaround for orders to go between BNA and London, plus change the name to something very New World like Canada and get away from being called British North America (you know, so you can say to Yankees, "Hey look, see, we're not British North Americans like those British who supported the south... we're Canadians!... we *like* the north... heck, we're true-north strong and free!"), and the first thing they did was go on a mad-panic construction of canals connecting upper and lower Canada so they could move forces back-and-forth anywhere along the line to meet Americans without having to use the Great Lakes.
But the Brits had insisted on maintaining a few strings attached, and it took a long time, over several significant steps, to finally cut those string. Crumb, I think the last legislative string wasn't cut until the time of Trudeau.
So you see, that War of 1812 wasn't as simplistically Canada versus the US as many would like to think. It was a British command, and a lot of the grunts were American expats pissed off about feeling required to leave their homes simply because they wanted to maintain loyalty to the crown.
(Imagine how it was for the French Canadians when a bunch of English speaking Empire Loyalists packing a grudge pushed into their eastern frontier to settle down to eventually call themselves Ontario, and because those future-Ontario settlers are carrying a chip on their shoulder about feeling victimized and forced into exile for having supported the crown, they take it out on the indigenous Quebecois, hammering on them to honor the British Crown, when Quebecois were happy enough to peacefully forget that the British Crown existed if everyone would just shut-up about it, but the Empire Loyalists wouldn't let bygones be bygones and wouldn't stop cramming that bad salt down their throats, leading to Quebec's attempt to split from British North America in 1837-38, etc. etc. yadda yadda... but maybe that's for another thread... I'm just saying, man, the more you learn about the history of it all, the more you'll see that Quebec separatists have a point...)
Anyway... the last time there was any sort of real border dispute between the US and Canada was in 1859 when a skirmish called the Pig War - so called because it was triggered by the shooting of a pig (which in the end was the only casualty of the war) - happened over the question of where to draw the border through the waters of the southern Gulf Islands off the west coast.
It was eventually settled by third-party arbitration in 1872, and since then there haven't been any border disputes. There were some questions about US whiskey traders moving into southern Alberta, who got chased out with creation of the RCMP, and the 1903 tribunal establishing the border with Alaska was very peaceful and orderly (I'm jealous how Alaska got that huge pan-handle).
Otherwise, there hasn't been an issue. Both sides just got used to each other being there.
So what would I do if there were an invasion?
It would mean the border's disappeared, so I'll wait for a day when the weather is good to talk to the troops and find out if any of them want to trade houses, and if any takers, I'll trade him the keys, tell him not to forget to water the dandelions, and I'll tell him to give me a call the next time he's around and we can go out for a drink and he can tell me his war stories because I'm going to take the new house and play with it on the real estate market until I get a summer home in Tillamook and a winter home in Phoenix.
By the way... totally off thread, but... guess who maintained an embassy in North Vietnam and was the relay for diplomatic communications between the US and North Vietnam during the Vietnam War?
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If in fact the US decided to invade Canada for some silly reason, Canada wiould collapse very, very rapidly. Do you think that the US doesn't know where every concentration of military is in Canada? The Canadian Armed Forces are essentially 25-50 years behind the times with most weapons, (look at your Navy as just one example), and your forces are so small that they wouldn't amount to much.
The fact that over 90% of your population is within 100 miles of the border also doesn't help.
But, the reality is that since 1812, the USA has not had any desire to invade Canada. Only idiots, and real paranoids think that they would do such a thing.
The fact that over 90% of your population is within 100 miles of the border also doesn't help.
But, the reality is that since 1812, the USA has not had any desire to invade Canada. Only idiots, and real paranoids think that they would do such a thing.
ANY PLACE the US decides to invade collapses very, very quickly. It would be the same for Mexico, or England, or Australia, or anywhere. Your first-strike capability is second to none and overwhelming.
Hanging on and occupying it on the other hand... hmm... last time I seen a proper job of that was MacArthur in Japan, although maybe Grenada counts.
Yup. In those days, it was much more appealing to Americans to expand west into nice warm temperate lands rather than north into marshy mosquito infested territories, and by they time both reached the Pacific, they were established peoples who'd become basically accustomed to the fact that each other exists.
Unfortunately the War of 1812 (first invasion of the U.S. by a foreign power) is sort of a forgotten war here in the U.S., learning American history sort of mentions it quickly and moves on. We don't attribute any responsibility to Canada for causing it or even being involved, as you mentioned it was a British vs U.S. thing, actually it was big business on both sides flexing their muscles. In answer to your question, it was Canada. By the way, very good history lesson, I have one question though who is this Sherman you mention? The only one I know is Civil War General Sherman.
Mexico bad example, it has already collapsed. I am surprised we haven't seriously gotten involved in the cartel wars there having. (maybe we are, who knows)
You're right. I went back to notes, and my brain got it's wires crossed between the name of a Shawnee alley on the British side and Sherman's middle name and yes I know that doesn't make sense but most of my memory gets retrieved through pictures draw in my head while reading or as others speak.
The American General was William Hull.
But you know what else is kind'a funny about the attempt to invade what they called "The Canada's" back then? It was that New England refused to support it. They wouldn't offer supplies nor troops. Even then New England, the closest of the States to Canada, had so little issue with Canada that they refused to participate in an invasion (States were more autonomous back then). I bet that's a significant part of why the invasion failed... it was all being done by southern troops unfamiliar with the climate and terrain and geography.
By the way, did you know that the war of 1812 is what inspired composition and writing of the American national anthem?
Ugh... I had a business venture offer to go to El Paso and help set up some things, and then I read the regional stats... in particular what was going on right across the border. I respectfully declined. I so seriously do not know how you guys can be handling that.Mexico bad example, it has already collapsed. I am surprised we haven't seriously gotten involved in the cartel wars there having. (maybe we are, who knows)
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True. Many people think that anti-war movements started with hippies in the 60's, but the American Anti-Imperialist League beat them to it by decades.
Associated with the League was Mark Twain, and here's some lyrics he wrote to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic:
"Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored;
He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored;
His lust is marching on.
I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps;
I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps;
His night is marching on.
I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
Lo, Greed is marching on!"
We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;
Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat;
O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet;
Our god is marching on!
In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom -- and for others' goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich;
Our god is marching on."
Yup.
Is CIDA doing much these day?
I had a colleague suggest we send CIDA to New Orleans, and an American among the group said if we tried they'd send USAID to certain northern Inuit communities.
its not "if" but "when"
if they keep going the way they are going, they will invade........but for the time being, because you're neighbours, they dont have to, they can keep you on hold.............. my advice... a pre-emptive strike, hit em where it hurts. oh thats right right, they're probably too phucking dumb to know where it hurts...................... :lol:
if they keep going the way they are going, they will invade........but for the time being, because you're neighbours, they dont have to, they can keep you on hold.............. my advice... a pre-emptive strike, hit em where it hurts. oh thats right right, they're probably too phucking dumb to know where it hurts...................... :lol:
:sign7: Well, if a fuel-laden jetliner were to malfunction and crash into Monsanto HQ, it wouldn't hurt them as a nation one little bit. In fact, they'd feel a lot better once over the initial shock of realizing they've been liberated from a bio-economic cancer and are getting healthier with the better food they'll be eating...
:sex:
Ever wondered if part of the reason Canada has only counter intelligence with no covert ops is so it won't get blame from American conspiracy theorists for accidents like that?
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What would I do if the US invaded?
- Assume they must be frightfully bored.
- Get out my green card.
- Get out my dual British/Canadian citizenship documentation.
- Get out my Canadian Citizenship certification signed by Her Majesty - play the monarchy card.
- Paddle the canoe across the border and go play on the beach on San Juan Island until they gave up from sheer ennui and returned home.
How's that I'rak and Afghan blanket thing go'n fer ya?
You can't defeat either force and had to get NATO and other allies involved in both conflicts because you couldn't do it on your own..... if Al'Q/Taliban's technology is 50-60 years behind the times and you can't beat them, what makes you think you can beat technology that's 25-50 years behind the times (which is of course yet another gross exaggeration, but whatever makes you feel good)
Hell, for as small as our military is, in WWI, WWII and even in Afghanistan we've done the missions no other country could do and considering we've been stuck in the same spot in Afghanistan since we pretty much landed, which is one of the areas with the most conflict and fighting, which few other nations, including the US, wanted to go..... you're clearly underestimating our capabilities, much like how we were underestimated in the previous World Wars..... in fact, our military accomplishments and abilities in WWI was one of the main reasons why Canada eventually became its own dependent nation.
Being your next door neighbors, do you seriously think we don't know where all your bases are, what your military capabilities are, etc?
You know what we know, and we know what you know.
That's more of a problem for the US then it is for us.
Says the guy who comes in here to add more fuel to the fire with his own paranoid claims that you'd win and why. :-?
/stickpoke