Was Jesus a Socialist?

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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Salvation into heaven CANNOT be a path. "Lest any man boast" (Ephesians 2:9). God made it INCREDIBLY EASIER than following a path, he made salvation and eternal life a door, Jesus said "I am the door" (John 10:7). And Jesus was neither capitalist, communist, or a socialist. He lived his life on a much higher spiritual plane. Like I already told you, he looked to his heavenly Father for provision. The kingdom of God's economy is above any other method or philosophy you can think of.



Again, Jesus didn't need to capitalize on miracles because first, that would detract the glory God deserves for performing such a miracle. And second Jesus got ANYTHING he needed whether it be MONEY, a place to stay, protection, sustenance, etc from God the Father - NOT SELLING MIRACLES AS MAGIC TRICKS. "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) and he goes further "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." (Luke 10:22)And there's countless more pieces of evidence that completely annihilates your assertion that Jesus was a socialist. How does this exclude him from being a socialist? Because you can certainly be a socialist and believe in God, but socialism doesn't rely on God's resources for provision and therefore Jesus, who did rely on God's resources and not the resources of man, doesn't meet the criteria to be defined as a socialist.

Having you guys tell me who Jesus Christ is amounts to a sad attempt to put on a play. I'm the one in a living relationship with Jesus Christ, he lives in me John 14:20, he chose me John 15:16, and he made me right with God the Father Romans 5:19. On top of that, I get to live the same life Christ did and rely on God's provision Phil. 4:19, and not worry about the world's crappy economy. So, like I said, having YOU guys tell me who Christ is would be like me telling you who your mother or father was.

You have no case against Christ and I doubt I will reply further, especially since I owned this thread(for him)and if you wish to continue then I seriously suggest we open the steel cage.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.​


It seems to me some of these people who think they have a free ticket because they received the light of Jesus Christ into their hearts while in rehab and were born again are in some serious deep ****. The only way to be a Christian is to be like Christ not act and think like some slack jawed yokel on a bad crank trip.​
 

damngrumpy

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I believe he was left of center if that is what you mean. Socialists are not Godless people either.
I know many people who are indeed socialists who are in fact devout Christians. I wonder how
many people are really socialists that claim to be and others who profess they are not, who think
like socialists. My father also told me once, if you are ever thinking of being a socialist make sure
you are a rich one.
Christ was opposed to the Roman Empire which was at the extreme of the right wing fascist
movement of the day. There is one other thing that comes to mind. Christ was able to communicate
across societies, for example Christ, who was Jewish is the number two prophet in the Muslim World.
I think he had right and left wing leanings but to state he was a socialist I don't think so.
 

JLM

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I believe he was left of center if that is what you mean. Socialists are not Godless people either.
I know many people who are indeed socialists who are in fact devout Christians. I wonder how
many people are really socialists that claim to be and others who profess they are not, who think
like socialists. My father also told me once, if you are ever thinking of being a socialist make sure
you are a rich one.
Christ was opposed to the Roman Empire which was at the extreme of the right wing fascist
movement of the day. There is one other thing that comes to mind. Christ was able to communicate
across societies, for example Christ, who was Jewish is the number two prophet in the Muslim World.
I think he had right and left wing leanings but to state he was a socialist I don't think so.

It's just about impossible to figure out what a socialist really is. The vast majority of Union people (capitalists to the extreme), generally vote for the Socialist. Has anyone figured that one out?
 

Cliffy

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It's just about impossible to figure out what a socialist really is. The vast majority of Union people (capitalists to the extreme), generally vote for the Socialist. Has anyone figured that one out?
It is all about sharing the wealth. 2% of the planet owns 80% of the wealth. Union workers want a piece of the pie. Why is that such a bad thing? Of course, the union leadership has become so much like the corporate leadership it is hard to tell them apart. I think union workers are getting shafted from both ends.

Jesus, on the other hand railed against the status quo, political and religious. He was a rebel and an anarchist. But like everything else, his message was subverted by those in control to suit their own ends. So called Christianity bares no resemblance to the original teachings. It has become a political tool for the control of the masses.
 

earth_as_one

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It's just about impossible to figure out what a socialist really is. The vast majority of Union people (capitalists to the extreme), generally vote for the Socialist. Has anyone figured that one out?

Socialism might be described as individuals working together as a group for the benefit of the group. Unions are a socialist concept because of collective bargaining for pay, rights, pension plans, health and dental care... When people everyone acts in unison, they have more power than if they acted as an individual. One person going on strike can be ignored and replaced. An entire union on strike is far more difficult to ignore.

It is all about sharing the wealth. 2% of the planet owns 80% of the wealth. Union workers want a piece of the pie. Why is that such a bad thing? Of course, the union leadership has become so much like the corporate leadership it is hard to tell them apart. I think union workers are getting shafted from both ends.

Jesus, on the other hand railed against the status quo, political and religious. He was a rebel and an anarchist. But like everything else, his message was subverted by those in control to suit their own ends. So called Christianity bares no resemblance to the original teachings. It has become a political tool for the control of the masses.

There are at least two forces at work here. The owners of wealth, use their wealth to create wealth... but they don't actually do the work. Workers don't own the wealth, but they labor to create wealth in exchange for a share of the wealth. The owners would like to maximize their profits. The workers want a greater share of the wealth they produce. Unions empower the workers. Unfortunately Union executives can become self serving and control the workers for personal benefit, sometimes in collusion with the owners.

Jesus was a rebel or a revolutionary, but he was hardly an anarchist. He upset the status quo to cause change. Some degree of anarchy can be expected during any revolution, even if that's not the revolution's objective. Jesus encouraged people to share their wealth through charity. He encourage to strong to help the weak. These are socialist ideas.

The recent events in Egypt are a good example of how revolution can create anarchy, even though its not the objective. People working together as a group to overthrow their corrupt leaders, for the benefit of the majority is an example of socialism.

If think you oppose socialism in all cases and that its evil, then you must oppose these examples of government social programs:

Public Education System (Grades 1-12, university to some degree, but not capitalistic private schools for profit)
Highways (paid by taxes rather than the capitalist toll system)
Public Health Care (not including for profit hospitals and clinics)
Unemployment Insurance
Welfare and support for people with low incomes
Car insurance in Manitoba (far cheaper than other provinces and the profit goes to the Manitoba government reducing taxes)
Canadian Pension Plan and Old Age Security (young people paying for a benefit they will see if they live long enough)
Environmental Protection Act (protects the environment for everyone benefit, capitalism would allow industry to maximize profits)
The Criminal Justice System (paid by tax dollars for the benefit of society)

Basically all government programs funded by taxes for the benefit of the people are examples of socialism.

An important concept that some extreme socialists don't understand is the importance of encouraging wealth creation. In order for wealth to distributed, it has to be created first. Capitalism is the best system for wealth creation, to a point.

An important concept that some extreme capitalists don't understand is that some degree of socialism is required to create wealth efficiently. Extreme capitalism would result in an uneducated workforce, sick people and a polluted environment.

The Chinese government understood that balance is essential. When Hong Kong returned to Chinese control, they wisely left Hong Kong's capitalistic system intact. They could have seized all Hong Kong's wealth, but they didn't because, it doesn't make sense to cook a goose that lays golden eggs. Sure you'd get one big meal, but you'd soon be hungry. Better to protect the goose and allow it to keep laying golden eggs... Hong Kong and the Autonomous Zones which dot China's coast modeled after Hong Kong show the Chinese government understands the importance of balancing socialism and capitalism to create long term wealth and growth. The recent collapse of major banks in the US are an example of what happens when the balance shifts too far towards capitalism. The collapse of the USSR shows what happens when the balance shifts too far toward socialism.
 

petros

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It's just about impossible to figure out what a socialist really is. The vast majority of Union people (capitalists to the extreme), generally vote for the Socialist. Has anyone figured that one out?
You've been taught all your life by the Capitalists, fascists and Communists that Socialism is bad. If those three are telling you it's rotten and the worst possible then the odds are very high that it's by far the best one for the people of the world.

Not much to figure out really. Unions (socialist) are what created the middle class, educated your children and invested heavily into Canadian economy on the behalf of Canadians and their members.

If you'd like to go back to being a serf keep trashing unions and labour.

Hong Kong and the Autonomous Zones which dot China's coast modeled after Hong Kong show the Chinese government understands the importance of balancing socialism and capitalism to create long term wealth and growth.
Would you support "Free Trade and Manufacturing" zones within Canada where there are no labour or immigration laws?
 
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damngrumpy

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It is clear that the Jesus of history was not proponent of the Roman Empire. Jesus was on the
political left and his movement was hijacked by a more conservative element at a later date.
Was he a socialist? I think he was somewhere in between. He was intelligent, a natural leader,
someone who cared about the poor and he believed everyone had a right to their accomplishments.
Somewhat contradictory for a labelled anything. Jesus preached against the greedy but not
against the wealthy if you look carefully at the message.
I think he was smart enough to understand the time is the only thing that tempers the minds of men
and women anywhere in the world. We have come some measure down the road of human history.
Most societies have abandoned slavery, there are many now who have embraced racial equality,
equal rights for men and women, poor people have a right to education and so on.
By the same token, we have a long way to go, and it will be generations before we give up our
need for superstitions about religion, and other symbols of good luck etc.
I don't think Jesus was into religion, I think he was into individual conscience, and he wanted people
to adopt things as a matter of conscience. If you read ancient texts carefully, he never said he was
the son of God. His response was, You say that I am.
What I would like to see is all those hidden texts in the Vatican Vaults that have a measure of truth,
in them. I think he was a revolutionary and someone who wanted us to embrace the world in a new
light. He was a measure of a socialist in some ways and the opposite in others.
He wanted people to think for themselves and create their own revolution withing themselves rather
than burn down the world, for he knew that even after people banded together to change the condition
of mankind, they still had to live on the planet.
There is a saying Change yourself and you begin to change the World.
And NO I am not religious in the Biblical sense, haven't been to church in years except for weddings
and funerals. You might say I am a retired Catholic, and even though I doubt that anyone is a son of
God or what ever, I do recognize the contribution that the historical Jesus made and others exploited.
 

petros

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Jesus preached against the greedy but not against the wealthy if you look carefully at the message.
He preached against the monetization of sin which eventually spilled over into Christianity. Ironically though, the more rich people sinned and then paid their tithe for forgiveness (you could even pre-pay) the acts of charity the church could do and the further across the globe it could expand.
 

JLM

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You've been taught all your life by the Capitalists, fascists and Communists that Socialism is bad. If those three are telling you it's rotten and the worst possible then the odds are very high that it's by far the best one for the people of the world.

I agree wholeheartedly with you- AS LONG as every member is willing to do his/her share + plus 1%, but as soon as one member tries to get away with doing his/her share minus 1%, the system fails. :smile:
 

damngrumpy

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Every society at some point has tried the old lets share everything concept and it always
turns out the same. Some work like hell and others sleep till noon except on payday.
Ones efforts should be rewarded by their effort and not at the generosity of the state.
Having said that, I believe the wealthy or any other group should pay their fair share of the
tax load to contribute to the well being of the society. Yes, I do believe that even the
poor should pay something. For example you may in fact get an assistance check, but
there should be at least five dollars in tax paid on it.
The reason is simple, people who contribute something have a real voice that should be
heard, paying at least five dollars in taxes is the measure they can contribute and it gets
them used to paying into the societies welfare. No one should be left out when it comes
to being part of the society. In addition, those who claim the poor get a free ride would be
silenced by the truth, and they too might see the world through different eyes.
If you think about it Capitalism and Socialism are mere tools that portions of them can be
used to make a better world without taking away peoples rights and initiative. All too often
the term assistance is replaced by the word entitlement and then the trouble starts.
Was Jesus a socialist? It is not part of the equation, he was trying to convince people to
fix their inner selves and that way they could reach the level of their own potential.
I personally think he was a free thinker and he would have left your vision of the world up to
you. Putting Jesus in a box has allowed religion to become a self imposed prison for many
people who do not wish to think or act for themselves. Their missed the vision Jesus was
talking about and they don't have one of their own.
I don't want to put myself in a Liberal Conservative or socialist box because I am a mixture
of all of them like many others are, the difference is some know it and others do not.
 

petros

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I agree wholeheartedly with you- AS LONG as every member is willing to do his/her share + plus 1%, but as soon as one member tries to get away with doing his/her share minus 1%, the system fails. :smile:
Any venture, union or not will see losses from those who slack off. It must be a while since you've been on a jobsite because labour, more than ever has become disposable and it's no longer about producing X amount at all cost. It's safety first and then quality and production. If you try to **** the dog the OHS guys will hound you and as soon as a bootlace comes loose or you take off your safety glasses to wipe your brow you are fired instantly.

Things have changed in big ways when it comes to skilled labour.
 

earth_as_one

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Would you support "Free Trade and Manufacturing" zones within Canada where there are no labour or immigration laws?
My son lives in one of these zones and it is very regulated! Both Chinese citizens and foreigners need a government permit first before they can live work in these zones. No one can just move to these zones. You had to already be living in one, or get a job offer. Rate of pay is also much higher in these zones than China proper. As a result these economic zones lack many of the problems of common in other large Asian cities. I saw no slums or homeless people when I visited my son in Shanghai. Everyone was busy and violent crime is rare.

I agree wholeheartedly with you- AS LONG as every member is willing to do his/her share + plus 1%, but as soon as one member tries to get away with doing his/her share minus 1%, the system fails. :smile:

Which is why communism doesn't work on the large scale. In a small commune (less than 100 people), communism would probably work. If someone slacks off, the other 99 people know and evict the slacker. Also a single hard working creative person can make a difference. Traditional Inuit society before western contact was a true communist society. Everything belonged to the group. All tasks were for the benefit of the group. Successful hunters were not rewarded with money or possessions, but with sexual favors from grateful women...

On the scale of a country, socialism will work when the needs of the group are balanced with the need to reward the individual for their hard work and creativity. We need a class system, but the poor must not be allowed to sink into extreme poverty. Basic necessities (food, clothing, shelter and education) ideally would be free. Luxuries (classy restaurants, designer clothes, mansions, toys, cars) would be heavily taxed to pay for the basic necessities.

If you are a true Christian, you make a donation to the church. The purpose of that money is to benefit the congregation (the group). The people with the most donate a portion of their wealth to help care for the poor. At one time, most schools and hospitals were run by religious groups and funded by donations by the wealthy. That was socialism in action.
 
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petros

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For example you may in fact get an assistance check, but
there should be at least five dollars in tax paid on it.

The reason is simple, people who contribute something have a real voice that should be
heard, paying at least five dollars in taxes is the measure they can contribute and it gets
them used to paying into the societies welfare. No one should be left out when it comes
to being part of the society. In addition, those who claim the poor get a free ride would be
silenced by the truth, and they too might see the world through different eyes.
When you get to the nitty gritty those with the least are taxed the most. Someone on assistance has to spend every penny to just make ends meet.

5% GST + X% PST of $500 is far far harder to swallow than for someone who has $5000 a month in income.
 

JLM

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Any venture, union or not will see losses from those who slack off. It must be a while since you've been on a jobsite because labour, more than ever has become disposable and it's no longer about producing X amount at all cost. It's safety first and then quality and production. If you try to **** the dog the OHS guys will hound you and as soon as a bootlace comes loose or you take off your safety glasses to wipe your brow you are fired instantly.

Things have changed in big ways when it comes to skilled labour.

12 years 1 month and 12 days and I haven't missed a fricken minute. My goal upon retirement was to stay retired for more years than I worked, still got about 25 to go. Safety and production go hand in hand, it's when you are dithering around unorganized and not paying attention that accidents happen. I never had a time loss accident in 35 years- got some stitches in a finger once, but it was right at quitting time when I had the accident.

When you get to the nitty gritty those with the least are taxed the most. Someone on assistance has to spend every penny to just make ends meet.

5% GST + X% PST of $500 is far far harder to swallow than for someone who has $5000 a month in income.

You can't please everyone. Taxing consumer products suits some because they don't HAVE to buy what they don't feel like paying tax on. It is one good means of boycotting.
 

petros

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YouTube - Dear Jesus...

12 years 1 month and 12 days and I haven't missed a fricken minute. My goal upon retirement was to stay retired for more years than I worked, still got about 25 to go. Safety and production go hand in hand, it's when you are dithering around unorganized and not paying attention that accidents happen. I never had a time loss accident in 35 years- got some stitches in a finger once, but it was right at quitting time when I had the accident..
Well JLM in those 12 years things have changed in big ways. There isn't a surplus of labour anymore and getting and retaining skilled workers is getting harder and harder. Technology has really help on the production end but it has also taken the training qualifications of apprentices and journeyman to a whole new level. Some unions have even started their own education and training centrs because the Provincial trade school's standards are too low.

On the other hand you probably wouldn't like how strict things have gotten in many aspects either.