US Fiscal Cliff-

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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Actually America could turn things around but the Tea Party of no compromise a few years
back ended that. I agree Obama should not cave into the spoiled rich people, they have to
pay their share. I am sick of seeing the Middle Class for the rich folks bill while they whine
and demand even more. here we have the very wealthy wanting more breaks while they ask
for cut backs to seniors pensions. Enough I think Obama is on the right track here and history
will bear this out.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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Enough I think Obama is on the right track here and history
will bear this out.


Yup......we're on the right track......




Yes......we are... ;-)

 

Dixie Cup

Senate Member
Sep 16, 2006
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Actually America could turn things around but the Tea Party of no compromise a few years
back ended that. I agree Obama should not cave into the spoiled rich people, they have to
pay their share. I am sick of seeing the Middle Class for the rich folks bill while they whine
and demand even more. here we have the very wealthy wanting more breaks while they ask
for cut backs to seniors pensions. Enough I think Obama is on the right track here and history
will bear this out.


Ok, so increasing taxes for the rich will result in how much revenue??? 16 trillion?? ARe you kidding me?? They already pay over 50% of the taxes! (shake my head)
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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Ok, so increasing taxes for the rich will result in how much revenue??? 16 trillion?? ARe you kidding me?? They already pay over 50% of the taxes! (shake my head)

All those that don't qualify to pay taxes want more for fee.
The question that has to be asked is what is the point of working hard to get ahead if the government is just going to take it away to give to someone that does not work? I've also noticed that those on the receiving end are the ones that claim everyone must pay their fair share. Funny that.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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I do not see how the US can avoid raising taxes and cut spending on all social programs.
I listened to a program today.


They can't totally avoid it, but it seems that they can most certainly defer the issue for a few years or so.

1/10th of 1 percent of the population hold approx 8 % of the wealth. At one time not long ago it was 1 % controlled 10 % of the wealth.

It's not hard to imagine. At one time not long ago, there weren't in excess of 50% of the US population not paying federal income tax.


$21-30 trillion sheltered overseas in tax free accounts.

End the corporate welfare state, end the recession and deficit.

Sounds good... All you need to do now is change the laws in every country that the offshore accounts are in.

Shouldn't be too hard
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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They can't totally avoid it, but it seems that they can most certainly defer the issue for a few years or so.



It's not hard to imagine. At one time not long ago, there weren't in excess of 50% of the US population not paying federal income tax.




Sounds good... All you need to do now is change the laws in every country that the offshore accounts are in.

Shouldn't be too hard

Problem is they are fast approaching the 90 % level. Then the sht begins- Perpaps as Greenspan stated- go over the cliff and work thru the recession. They could/would emerge in better fiscal health.
 

tay

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May 20, 2012
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Senator Kent Conrad, outgoing chair of the Senate Budget Committee



So do you think there are actually good policy arguments for raising tax rates on capital gains and dividends to raise revenue, as opposed to raising the individual marginal tax rate?

Sure there are. The argument against raising marginal rates is that has a very different economic impact than it does to raise capital gains taxes, or to raise capital gains and broaden the base. Broadening the base is seen by most economists as more efficient, with better incentives. And when you’re having [taxes on] capital gains and dividends at 15 percent, when everybody else is at 35 percent, it creates these incredible distortions in which very wealthy individuals are paying a fraction of the rate of those with far more modest incomes. You can see a rationale for doing it that way.

If if we raise $1.6 trillion in tax revenue, as the president has proposed, does that also mean $1.6 trillion in savings from entitlement reform? If so, how would you envision that happening?

We’ve got to separate out Social Security — the savings derived from there should be purely for the purpose of extending solvency of Social Security itself. Social Security has not contributed to the deficit problem.


Sen. Conrad: “No way to get the revenue necessary without significant changes on capital gains and dividends”
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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http://ideas.time.com/2012/11/13/viewpoint-why-we-should-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/

The fiscal cliff is a powerful metaphor. It sounds like an impending disaster, but in reality, we’ll wake up on the morning of Jan. 3 and life will be unchanged. Sure, tax rates will nominally be higher, some tax breaks will have been canceled, and the government will be expected to implement major cuts in military and domestic spending. If that continues for several months, it will have an adverse effect on the economy.

But letting the law take effect will also have some real benefits. For one thing, on the other side of the cliff, we’ll be a big step closer to the kind of fundamental reform of the tax code that both Democrats and Republicans say they want. Two provisions that limit the deductions and personal exemptions the wealthy can take — similar to the cap on deductions proposed by Mitt Romney — will come back into effect. Capital-gains rates will rise from 15% to 20%, and dividends will be taxed at normal rates, reducing the incentives for tricks like the notorious carried-interest loophole. And instead of a tax system that produces less revenue as a percentage of GDP than at any time since 1950, we’ll move toward one that is adequate to the needs of a modern, dynamic economy. The fiscal cliff is, all by itself, a budget deal and a step toward tax reform. A flawed and dangerous one, to be sure, but a far better starting point for a real budget agreement than the temporary rules of 2012.

Greenspan: Recession a

There’s no point denying it, says Alan Greenspan: the tax increases that will come with any solution to the fiscal cliff will hurt economic growth. And that’s fine with him, if it means finally dealing with the U.S. budget deficit.

“If the cost of getting out of this is a modest recession, I think that is a cheap price,” Mr. Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman, said at a conference in Washington on Friday.

Now, to be clear, Mr. Greenspan is no fan of raising taxes. He said the U.S.’s budget issue is fundamentally about spending. Even raising the rates of the wealthiest is problematic. The rich save the most, and savings are the basis of economic growth and productivity gains because they support business investment. Mr. Greenspan says that as government spending increases, saving decreases. For the former Fed chief, that explains why U.S. growth and productivity are starting to lag.

But his reluctant embrace of tax increases is a recognition of the politics of government fiscal planning. Voters view Medicare, Social Security and other entitlement programs as just that – entitlements, akin to a contract. Tax policy is less rigid. The public is used to watching their taxes rise and fall.

That makes altering the tax code an easier path in the short term. Spending must be brought under control, but that will be harder. So, says Mr. Greenspan, raise taxes now and lower them again when the budget deficit is brought under control.
 
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Locutus

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Jun 18, 2007
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Inconvenient Fiscal Cliff Facts

The Joint Committee on Taxation found that raising the tax on millionaires (the so-called Buffet Rule) to 30% federal would raise $5 billion per year.


Worse, if the Democrats passed all of their tax increase wish list - Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation concluded the best case scenario (if no one changes their behaviour) - would raise $82 billion.....or just 7% of the current deficit.



In short there is simply no possibility that the Fiscal Cliff will be solved without MASSIVE spending cuts. Don't tell that to a lefty like CNN's Candy Crowley though, as the math simply does't fit this idiot's fantasy..... as she proved on Sunday's State of the Union when she pitched Tax Hikes Without Even Mentioning Spending Cuts




http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/021995.html#comments
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Grover Norquist Taxpayer Protection Pledge to be broken by several Republicans in fiscal-cliff compromise | News | National Post

WASHINGTON – U.S. Republicans appear to have opened the door to a compromise in negotiations over the much-feared fiscal cliff that economists say could plunge the world into a recession.

Four prominent Republican congressmen announced this weekend and Monday that they are prepared to shed the so-called Grover Norquist Taxpayer Protection Pledge that over the last 20 years has bound many lawmakers to vote against tax increases.

The Norquist disavowal appears to have cracked the concrete wall that has divided U.S. congressmen on budget issues and tax reform, often grinding congress to a halt.

Norquist is a unique American phenomenon. He’s a Washington lobbyist and part-time amateur comedian who basically represents rich people who don’t want to pay taxes and Tea Party supporters who want the government to slash spending to the bone.

Norquist, who once said that he wanted to make government small enough so he could strangle it in the bathtub, first started pressuring lawmakers to sign his no-tax pledge in 1992.

Backed by rich Americans such as the Koch brothers, his Americans for Tax Reform organization cowered politicians who refused to sign by launching publicity campaigns to discredit them. Many lost their seats as a result, greatly strengthening Norquist’s position on Capitol Hill.

With prominent Republicans such as Peter King of New York and Sen. Saxby Chambliss of Georgia now saying the care more about their country than a 20-year-old pledge, Norquist is beginning to look deflated.

Jon Meacham: Has Republican Party

And so it begins. When Senator Saxby Chambliss announced last week that he no longer considered himself bound by a no-new-taxes pledge he signed two decades ago, the Georgia Republican made an important break with a GOP article of faith — an early sign that compromise could yet be possible in the coming weeks and months.


And maybe years. Endorsed by Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and by Representative Peter King of New York, the Chambliss decision — one that put him on the other side of Grover Norquist and the conservative base — is reminiscent of what began happening among Democrats in the aftermath of the 1984 Reagan landslide. Old allegiances to traditional Democratic constituencies were re-examined; the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) urged office holders and candidates to adopt centrist rhetoric and a promarket orientation.

It worked. In the 1990s Bill Clinton became the first two-term Democratic president since FDR, and Al Gore — another early DLCer — won the popular vote in 2000. The climatic moment of the New Democrat ascendancy came in 1996, when Clinton declared that “the era of big government” was over.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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I couple weeks ago a refered to the US economic situation as "pushing a boulder up a slippery slope."

But pushing a boulder up a cliff? That's pretty much saying "sorry folks, we're ****ed."
 
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Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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I couple weeks ago a refered to the US economic situation as "pushing a boulder up a slippery slope."

But pushiing a boulder up a cliff? That's pretty much saying "sorry folks, we're ****ed."

And how goes the US economy goes the rest of us.
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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captain morgan; said:
They can't totally avoid it, but it seems that they can most certainly defer the issue for a few years or so.

Sounds good... All you need to do now is change the laws in every country that the offshore accounts are in.

Shouldn't be too hard


I'm not worried about anyone else's laws. The thing to do is to end the corporate welfare state here by ending tax shelters and loopholes.


---------------

As for the notion that corporations pay 50% of the taxes, people like me and others have already posted enough links which prove some corporations haven't paid taxes in many years.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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I'm not worried about anyone else's laws. The thing to do is to end the corporate welfare state here by ending tax shelters and loopholes..

Great... Then don't hold your breath on getting access to the information or the funds that are in those offshore accounts


As for the notion that corporations pay 50% of the taxes, people like me and others have already posted enough links which prove some corporations haven't paid taxes in many years.

All that is really saying is that the corps that do pay, will have an even heavier burden subsidizing the 50% of the population (and growing daily) that voted for a free ride. Sounds all well and good; right up to the point that there are fewer corps around to pay for everyone else.

In the end, this is not my problem; but don't take it all personally when I tell you to get off the train tracks 'cause the 5:15 is coming your way at full speed.
 

Highball

Council Member
Jan 28, 2010
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Why not lets us go over? At least this time those who made the original swindle plan and executed it with precision won't find the hundredes of billions of taxpayer dollars to run with. Right now the three wealthiest persons in the Congress are Democrats and they aren't happy with the Presidents plan to add to their already almost non-existant tax burden. The gap widens and the rich are digging in for a big fight.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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The gap widens and the rich are digging in for a big fight.


The gap will only continue to increase as long as the gvt motivates companies to look to make up the difference in the tax bill with cheaper solutions to the cost of doing business (read: foreign sources of goods/services and lowering wages domestically)... That and the potential that the wealthy companies/individuals seek to go offshore in terms of relocating their corporate HQ and/or physically moving themselves (individuals) to more tax friendly places.

That said, don't expect too much of a fight... Capital reacts very quickly and it takes nothing to wire it to another country