U.S. war resister granted stay of deportation order

[Praxius]

Right...they don't end up going to the gallows or spending life in prison.

However you should be happy to know that when they do get out they recieve a Bad Conduct Discharge at the minimum. This will follow them for the rest of their lives. It will come up on every background check when they go for employment. It is a stigma that they will never shake. It is all fun and games now...the spot light is on them...but when the lights and momentary fame wears down and they are forgotten by the people that coddle them they will be stuck with that black mark forever. Look what the Liberals did to Cindy Sheehan. Once the Democrats won Congress back she was shoved aside as these guys will be eventually.

See that's the whole point why this guy is fighting it the way he is right now.... as explained multiple times, he did everything he was supposed to and he is being d*cked over by his own government....

Why should he have to live with a Bad Conduct Discharge for the rest of his life when he filled his obligations already and because the military won't give him his DD Form 214?

Why should he be forced to go back to Iraq and fight because of their refusal to meet their own obligations?

Why should he face jail time for their failure to meet their obligations?

Why should he have to suffer for already serving his country as requested and take the brunt of the Military's incompetence on his shoulders?

Why the hell should he have to suck it up and be forced to fight longer then he was supposed to or goto jail like he lives in some communist run state?

Why does the Government/Military get away with breaking their own obligations and rules, while the little guy who sacraficed year(s) of their lives already has to take more crap from their country that should be looking after them and not using them like disposable tampons?

You guys keep talking about how sick the Left makes you feel, or how sick it makes you think people like this are treated like heros.... well what makes me sick are the people who continually turn a blind eye to a corrupt government which doesn't give a rats ass for the people they should be working for.

 

[lone wolf]

He's not being screwed over though. The contract is like two parts - one for you and one for me. He got the one for you. Who's screwing who now?

 

[Colpy]

The point is this: they volunteer.

I know the terms of service were extended......but that happens in any country. Join the militia in Canada, and you can be called back after you quit......I think it is 5 years. I had a frien who in the militia.......was sent to a course for MPs in the USA (because so many US troops come to Gagetown), the course was canceled, so they sent him to a desert warfare school in the US. This was in 1988 or 89........he quit shortly after and went to university.....he was SURE he was going to be recalled.

Recall or extended service is not unusual. It is part of the obligation.

If you don't want to serve your country, don't sign on the dotted line. Period.

If you wish to make a stand on principle, do it where it counts...AT HOME! taking a stand is only an admireable thing if it COSTS..........If it is obviously to your advantage, then it is not taking a stand, it is something else.

I want these guys sent back to the USA.

They can serve their 6 months.

BIG DEAL!

If they'd stayed there and made a stand, I'd have some sympathy.

 

[Praxius]

[/color][/b]

Now we are going to get into some military legal jargon here. The guy is full of it. How can he get transfered to the IRR w/o a DD 214? You NEED a DD 214 before you get transfered to Inactive Reserve Status. When I was transfered to the IRR and checked in they asked...

"Can I see your DD 214?"
"Yes Sir...here it is."

Wallah! I was now on IRR status.

If he does get called up to serve while on IRR status he WILL be facing trouble. As of now the Army says that he is on IRR and has not been called up. He is basically whining about nothing.

I agree with that. Nobody is at fault in this case. Neither the government, the Army, or Corey. He can come and go as he pleases. He is making this something it isn't.

How did the d*** him over? He did his time, is on IRR status and in good standing and has not been called back to active status.

He can stay in Canada and be up on stage and protest all he wants. You can coddle and pay his bills give him a place to stay...do whatever. He's a free loader.

Up to this point you are right. He is under the IRR required to serve additional time if he is called. So far he has not been called up. If he does get called up and does not report THEN the young man is screwed. The IRR is no loop hole. It has been part of the military contract LONG before this guy signed up. When you sign up you get a 6 to 8 year contract depending on the MOS (job) you sign up for. So many years will be served on active or reserve status...the balance will be on the IRR. In the IRR you can be called back to active duty status. It is in black and white.

Sorry but if I have a U.S. Judge Advocate General and a civilian lawyer telling me I still face punishment if I return, I think I might rather not head back until that changes.

If they figure out he "officially" and "Legally" faces nothing if he returns, then I have no issue with Canada giving him the boot.

But in any situation where an individual faces unjust punishment by their own government and may face an unfair battle against that government if they return, I have no problems letting them stay in our country in safety until the situation is resolved.

And the comment of wasted tax dollars on him makes little difference to me, as we're all pretty well used to the government wasting our tax dollars on much more retarded things then this.

 

[EagleSmack]

Sorry but if I have a U.S. Judge Advocate General and a civilian lawyer telling me I still face punishment if I return, I think I might rather not head back until that changes.

If they figure out he "officially" and "Legally" faces nothing if he returns, then I have no issue with Canada giving him the boot.

But in any situation where an individual faces unjust punishment by their own government and may face an unfair battle against that government if they return, I have no problems letting them stay in our country in safety until the situation is resolved.

And the comment of wasted tax dollars on him makes little difference to me, as we're all pretty well used to the government wasting our tax dollars on much more retarded things then this.

You see...I am having trouble believing his story. Not all deserters or the like are honorable people. I am sure that some have, in their minds legitimate questions on the war. Just like not every soldier is honorable...these deserters are not always honorable either.

He says he has talked to people but the Army Major went on record saying that this guy is free to come and go. I grant you that OTHER real deserters ARE indeed in trouble.

I think this guy in particular wants attention.

 

[Praxius]

The point is this: they volunteer.

Volunteering doesn't mean you give up every and all your rights for the system to do as they please with you. Volunteering isn't a blank cheque.

....If you don't want to serve your country, don't sign on the dotted line. Period.

He already served his country, that's the whole point.

If you wish to make a stand on principle, do it where it counts...AT HOME! taking a stand is only an admireable thing if it COSTS..........If it is obviously to your advantage, then it is not taking a stand, it is something else.

I want these guys sent back to the USA.

They can serve their 6 months.

BIG DEAL!

If they'd stayed there and made a stand, I'd have some sympathy.

The favor is tilted to the system, so how does one expect them to actually make a stand in an environment where everything is against them? That's why they leave the country in the first place.

you can't really fight the system if you're thrown in jail before you can start.

Give him the forms he requests, finish the procedures set in place..... properly, and this person's situation will be finished and over with.

 

[MikeyDB]

Why should some "code", some "agreement" even a "contract" that's entered into by two parties be honored by both when it becomes obvious that the contract was initiated and made binding....predicated on lies and half-truths..?

When the United States reverses its position on detainment, torture, secret prisons, chemical weapons, a fairly large string of broken "agreements" and "committments"....by what standard ought the individual be judged? If we apply the standard of the current U.S. government....

 

[Praxius]

You see...I am having trouble believing his story. Not all deserters or the like are honorable people.

Fair enough, I never said any or all of them generally were honerable people without question, and I feel each situation should be addressed on a case by case basis, as one generic solution doesn't work for all.

For this guy in paticular, his surrounding situation is questionable to me, and I only think it is fair that he remains here until things are straightened out and he has a chance to deal with his legal battles in the US in a fair manner.

I am sure that some have, in their minds legitimate questions on the war. Just like not every soldier is honorable...these deserters are not always honorable either.

He says he has talked to people but the Army Major went on record saying that this guy is free to come and go. I grant you that OTHER real deserters ARE indeed in trouble.

I think this guy in particular wants attention.

He might want attention, and I didn't say he was honerable or not, but if he feels his future is at risk for things he feels are unjust against his situation in paticular, then he should be given a safe place to carry out his legal troubles until they are clear on what should be done.... and if that means toss him back to the US to deal with things, then so be it... it is what it is.

I'm not speaking as someone against the Iraq war, but I am speaking as someone who feels everybody should be given their fair day in court and to be protected until that time.... which is why I have issues with Git.Bay and what's being done there with Omar (I know, not the same situation, but it is another example of where law has been lost to suit an objective and is an unfair process.)

If someone is claiming their rights are being violated or they face jail time for something they feel unjust, and has no faith in their own legal system's ability to protect them fairly in this process of fighting, then it should be taken seriously and looked into.

 

[Praxius]

Why should some "code", some "agreement" even a "contract" that's entered into by two parties be honored by both when it becomes obvious that the contract was initiated and made binding....predicated on lies and half-truths..?

When the United States reverses its position on detainment, torture, secret prisons, chemical weapons, a fairly large string of broken "agreements" and "committments"....by what standard ought the individual be judged? If we apply the standard of the current U.S. government....

And when you lose faith and trust in your own government because of these types of actions.... and you feel they wouldn't have an issue breaking those types of securities on yourself or other citizens of your nation, how can one expect them to stand up and fight the system when they already know they will never win?

People speak about courage and honor, standing up and fighting those things someone finds wrong, and being cowards for running off..... I say those people who think they individually stand any possible chance against the US government and think they can win fairly in an unfair environment.... are just dumb-ass foolish.

When you can't trust your government and you can't trust your military, how can one expect to trust the legal system the government and military setup for you to run through?

 

[EagleSmack]

Volunteering doesn't mean you give up every and all your rights for the system to do as they please with you. Volunteering isn't a blank cheque.

Volunteering for the military means you give up a lot of rights. You are also granted other rights but you are held more accountable than the common citizen. A citizen and even another soldier may say...

"Hey...that is not fair...he (I) has (have) rights."

True...you have the rights granted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Violating your sworn oath is not a right. They sign up and they are expected to serve out their full term including that of their IRR status.

He already served his country, that's the whole point.

True...up to this point he has and has done so according to his contract. But he wants to be thought of as a poor courageous soldier who is being hunted by the big bad military. You guys are placating to this kid who isn't in any trouble at all!

The favor is tilted to the system, so how does one expect them to actually make a stand in an environment where everything is against them? That's why they leave the country in the first place.

you can't really fight the system if you're thrown in jail before you can start.

Give him the forms he requests, finish the procedures set in place..... properly, and this person's situation will be finished and over with.

Why did he even leave? Nobody's charged him with anything. What he is doing is making your system look foolish. He's craves attention and he is really ridiculing those who ARE in serious trouble. He is taking resources from them because he likes being up on stage and being the center of attention.

 

[EagleSmack]

For this guy in paticular, his surrounding situation is questionable to me, and I only think it is fair that he remains here until things are straightened out and he has a chance to deal with his legal battles in the US in a fair manner.

What legal battles? He says he has a legal battle but the US Govt. has come out and said this guy is not under threat of arrest because he hasn't done anything!

He can stay there as long as he wants.

Enjoy him. Listen to him. Coddle him and stroke his poor little ego.

I'm not speaking as someone against the Iraq war, but I am speaking as someone who feels everybody should be given their fair day in court and to be protected until that time.... which is why I have issues with Git.Bay and what's being done there with Omar (I know, not the same situation, but it is another example of where law has been lost to suit an objective and is an unfair process.)

If someone is claiming their rights are being violated or they face jail time for something they feel unjust, and has no faith in their own legal system's ability to protect them fairly in this process of fighting, then it should be taken seriously and looked into.

The guys who are running are given their fair day in court. They are running because they know they have violated their contract and that the "fair day" will mean them going to jail and getting a Bad Conduct Discharge.

A "fair day" doesn't mean that it is only fair if they get off w/o punishment. They are fighting to stay in Canada because it is as clear as day what awaits them upon their return. They know they have violated their contract and have deserted. They know that what they did is going to land them in the brig.

It is just as clear as knowing what would happen if a soldier or Marine was to strike an Officer or NCO. Whether or not they think it is right or they were right, punching an officer or sergeant (etc.) is wrong and there will be punishment. In the military there is no...

"Well I guess Major "So and So" deserved to get punched so you are free to go."

Same with desertion.

 

[Nuggler]

8O Could be a neat way to beat the immigration lineup?

.........nah!

 

[Praxius]

Update - Figured this would enlighten a bit more on the Government's position on Resisters:

U.S. army deserter could be headed home today
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...0715/Army_deserter_080715/20080715?hub=Canada

An American army deserter could be deported back to the U.S. today after a Federal Court judge rejected his application for a stay of his deportation order.

In 2005, Robin Long fled to Canada to avoid serving in Iraq. Last October, he was arrested in Nelson, B.C., on a Canada-wide warrant.

In her ruling Monday, Federal Court of Canada Justice Anne Mactavish said Long did not provide enough convincing evidence that he will face irreparable harm if he's sent back to the United States.

She noted that the percentage of American military deserters prosecuted in the U.S. has increased since 2002. However, she said the vast majority were not prosecuted, let alone jailed for desertion.

Between 2002 and 2006, Mactavish said about 94 per cent of U.S. deserters only received "a less than honourable discharge from the military."

Long, 25, had argued that he would be "singled out for harsh treatment by the Americans because of the publicity associated with his case."

But the judge ruled that Long failed to provide clear evidence in support of his argument.

Following the ruling, the chairman of the Vancouver War Resisters' Support Campaign said he believed Long's deportation would be the first time an army deserter has been forced out of Canada.

Bob Ages said Long will likely be deported Tuesday and returned to Fort Knox.

"We will be caucusing, trying to figure out what we can do,'' said Ages.

He said there likely wasn't enough time to file papers with the Federal Court of Appeal.

"We're down to the wire here," he said.

Long is one of several U.S. army deserters who have claimed refugee status in Canada but none have yet been successful.

 

[EagleSmack]

Good job. Soon this guy will be back in the US and under arrest. His hair will be cut, back in uniform and standing in front of his peers that he deserted. He won't have any Canadians patting him on the back. Once he gets his less than honorable discharge, hopefully worse he can go back to find that he is old news and no longer needed. :lol:

No more smirks on this guy's face!

 

[Praxius]

Good job. Soon this guy will be back in the US and under arrest. His hair will be cut, back in uniform and standing in front of his peers that he deserted. He won't have any Canadians patting him on the back. Once he gets his less than honorable discharge, hopefully worse he can go back to find that he is old news and no longer needed. :lol:

No more smirks on this guy's face!

Meh, if it was me, as in relation to the "Why Care" thread.... I wouldn't give a rats arse if I was standing around my peers that I deserted.... I'd probably give them all the finger and tell them to shove it, and if they got a problem, come and get some.

Might as well go out with a bang....

 

[EagleSmack]

Meh, if it was me, as in relation to the "Why Care" thread.... I wouldn't give a rats arse if I was standing around my peers that I deserted.... I'd probably give them all the finger and tell them to shove it, and if they got a problem, come and get some.

Might as well go out with a bang....

Yup...he could do that too. He could have a childish outburst and feel good for a few moments. It would not help his case out much and his sentencing would surely be tougher.

I did some research about some of these guys and a lot of them are getting Bad Conduct Discharges. I guess that is what the Canadian judge meant. That type of discharge stays with you forever.

 

[Scott Free]

Meh, if it was me, as in relation to the "Why Care" thread.... I wouldn't give a rats arse if I was standing around my peers that I deserted.... I'd probably give them all the finger and tell them to shove it, and if they got a problem, come and get some.

Might as well go out with a bang....

He deserted them so they're not really his peers. They probably never were his peers; he joined the army and then realized he didn't want to be a Nazi. Get him in front of a bunch of other deserters and he would be in front of his peers, mind you, then he wouldn't be in so much sh!t; so what does that tell us about ourselves?

 

[Scott Free]

Yup...he could do that too. He could have a childish outburst and feel good for a few moments. It would not help his case out much and his sentencing would surely be tougher.

Since when did being an "American" mean you had to be such a conformist? I remember once when you guys prided yourselves on being "rugged individuals." Now you're a nation of jack boots. WTF happened to you guys?

 

[lone wolf]

Why can't these guys figure out that if they're not medically acceptable, the service won't take them ... of course, it's mostly the pain they want to avoid isn't it?

 

[EagleSmack]

Since when did being an "American" mean you had to be such a conformist? I remember once when you guys prided yourselves on being "rugged individuals." Now you're a nation of jack boots. WTF happened to you guys?

Spare me the color would you. "Jack Boots", "Nazis"... please.

Conformity is PART of being in the military. That is what makes armies work. Individualism is how armies fail.

He signed up...He deserted...Now he's going to get a BIG CHICKEN DINNER...otherwise known as a BAD CONDUCT DISCHARGE. Then...after he does his hundred days or so in the brig he can go back to Canada and mooch off you folks as he has been. His name will forever be MUD in the states.