Trudeau 'welcomes' ethics probe of alleged PMO interference in SNC-Lavalin case
- Thread starter Danbones
- Start date
First we get to hear from that hysterical twit - the clerk of the Privy Council. In light of Geppetto's complete denial of any interference, I doubt that we will hearing a word of dissent from Wernick. Will the committee call Wilson-Raybould back being that it is stacked with liberal appointees.
Wish Raitt had more time to question him the rest of the time was almost a waste.
What kind of answer is nobody interfered but there was jobs at stake wtf?
What kind of answer is nobody interfered but there was jobs at stake wtf?
Canadians are no further ahead in understanding exactly what went on between the former AG and the government lackeys. It is he said - she said complete with texts and emails on both sides.
IMO the one that kept answering that he wasn't aware of what was going on around him, and that he only had 1 meeting with JWR
So now the little potato gets to pull of his drama queen stunt wherein he will once again deny any wrong doing and offer an empty apology for his performance so far.
He won't make anymore statements for a while yet beyond jobs blah blah blah Canadians blah blah blah challenges blah blah blah climate change.
For those who may have missed it - a summary of Geppetto's testimony.
Gerald Butts testifies at Commons justice committee: Key updates
Butts says the January cabinet shuffle had nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin affair at all, but rather was prompted by an unexpected, and swift, departure of former Nova Scotia minister Scott Brison. Butts says the prime minister had already made his pre-election shuffle and was happy with the existing lineup.
At first, Trudeau wanted to move Wilson-Raybould to the Indigenous Services portfolio, but she did something Butts says he has never seen before in government: she refused the position outright, saying she spent her whole career fighting the Indian Act.
Butts says he is not here to "quarrel with the former attorney general or say a single negative word about her personally," but adds that at all times, the Prime Minister's Office believed the decision to direct the director of public prosecutions to sign a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) with SNC-Lavalin would be hers to make.
Butts says because so many jobs are at stake — more than 9,000 direct jobs, but also the many in the company's supply chain — people in government suggested Wilson-Raybould should solicit outside legal counsel on whether it was appropriate for her to pursue a DPA.
Butts says Wilson-Raybould should have raised any and all concerns about what she has described as inappropriate pressure with the prime minister directly.
Butts said there was no co-ordinated effort inside the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) to pressure Wilson-Raybould to overrule the director of public prosecutions and negotiate a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) with SNC-Lavalin so it could avoid a trial over allegations it used bribery to secure government contracts in Libya.
"Absolutely not," he said when asked if he or anyone else exerted such influence on the former minister. "I really don't have an opinion on what decision the current or former attorney general should make. I'm glad I'm not in their shoes."
Butts also categorically denied that Wilson-Raybould was removed from cabinet because of her refusal to pursue a DPA — as she herself said under questioning last week — and said rather the shuffle was prompted solely by former Treasury Board president Scott Brison's unexpected December resignation.
Butts said he was not aware of her apparent discomfort about lobbying efforts on the SNC-Lavalin file until she was removed from the Justice portfolio in January 2019 as part of that shuffle.
Under questioning from NDP MP Charlie Angus, Butts said he has a "very different version of events" than does the former attorney general and would not "cast aspersions" on a former colleague for what he called her subjective take on the matter.
"What I am here to do is to give evidence that what happened last fall is in fact very different from the version of events you heard last week," he said.
Reading from text messages he exchanged with Wilson-Raybould, Butts told the committee that the only meeting he had with her on the issue was held at her request. Wilson-Raybould had testified that they both had sought out the Dec. 5 meeting at Ottawa's Chateau Laurier.
"Hey there GB — do you want to chat? I have a number of things to bring up … maybe you do as well? Tomorrow after Cabinet perhaps? Thx Jod," the text message from Wilson-Raybould said.
Butts suggested that if Wilson-Raybould requested the sit-down — which was to include discussion of files other than SNC-Lavalin — it would be unfair to say he personally had pressured her to take a particular course of action on the prosecution.
Butts said the government encouraged Wilson-Raybould to hire outside legal counsel — like former Supreme Court chief justice Beverley McLachlin — to solicit advice on whether she should sign a DPA.
"This was a novel law. It was the first time it had ever been used," Butts said.
Butts said the Prime Minister's Office wanted Wilson-Raybould to consider all options, given the potential for grave economic consequences for the company if it were convicted of the criminal offences.
"In a case like this when so many people's livelihoods are stake ... we took a really hard look at it because you want to be able, when you go knock on your doors on the weekend, you wanted to be able to look employees and pensioners in the eye and say, 'We gave this a good hard look.' That's all that was motivating us," he said.
Butts said the former attorney-general never made it clear to him that she had come to a final conclusion on the matter, adding he first learned she was not open to further intervention on this file from her appearance before the committee last week.
If Wilson-Raybould felt if the lobbying efforts to get her to consider hiring legal counsel for a second opinion on a DPA crossed the line, he said, "she had an obligation to at least inform the prime minister in writing."
Butts said he doesn't understand why Wilson-Raybould continued to accept meetings on the matter months after she is said to have made a final decision not to pursue a DPA.
"Why would there be a next step at all? Why would the Attorney-General take and solicit meetings on a closed matter?" Butts said.
Asked whether it was appropriate to mention an upcoming provincial election in Quebec in discussions about signing a DPA — something Wilson-Raybould said happened — Butts said public policy decisions are not made on the basis of electoral fortunes alone, and noted that the government concluded its NAFTA negotiations by agreeing to controversial dairy provisions that don't sit well with farmers in Quebec.
Under questioning from Conservative MP Lisa Raitt, Butts said the PMO was principally concerned about the fact that Wilson-Raybould only considered whether to pursue a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) for 12 days.
According to Wilson-Raybould's version of events last week, the director of public prosecutions decided on Sept. 4 not to pursue a DPA with SNC-Lavalin and Wilson-Raybould came to a similar conclusion on Sept. 16.
Speaking of his childhood in Cape Breton, where coal mining was once the dominant industrial employment, Butts said he hoped Ottawa considered the matter of closing the then Crown-owned coal operations for more than 12 days. When Cape Breton Development Corporation (DEVCO), the federal Crown corporation that ran the island's mines, wound down its operations, thousands of people lost their jobs.
Butts said Wilson-Raybould never told him she had made a final decision on this file by that date, which explains why lobbying efforts continued.
"My understanding is that nobody in the PMO or PCO [Privy Council Office] knew that at the time either. In fact, it is not to my knowledge how the law works. My understanding, which was informed by the public service and lawyers in the PMO, is that the attorney general's power to direct the DPP extends until the time a verdict is rendered," Butts said.
"My further understanding is that the attorney general is free to take advice on the decision until that point, and is obligated to bring fresh eyes to new evidence," he said.
Butts said the government suggested outside legal advice because the legislation allowing for a DPA was so new; it had only just been passed as part of omnibus budget legislation less than six months earlier, in spring 2018.
Butts said he believes Wilson-Raybould was "obliged" to consider new evidence in the case. The director of public prosecution herself reconsidered a DPA — when new evidence was presented by the company — on Oct. 9, he said.
Butts said the January cabinet shuffle had nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin affair at all but rather was prompted by the unexpected, and swift, departure of former Nova Scotia minister Scott Brison. "We had no idea he was even thinking about retirement," he said.
"Let me say at the outset, categorically, the January cabinet shuffle had absolutely nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin. In fact, I spent at least as much time working with colleagues to prevent the shuffle from happening as I did in preparing my advice for it," Butts said.
Butts said the prime minister already had made his pre-election shuffle and was happy with the existing lineup.
At first, Trudeau wanted to move Wilson-Raybould to the Indigenous Services portfolio, but she did something Butts said he has never seen before in government: she refused the position outright, saying she'd spent her whole career fighting the Indian Act.
Butts said Former Treasury Board president Jane Philpott flagged to the prime minister during an in-person meeting on Jan. 6, 2019 — before the actual shuffle — that Wilson-Raybould might perceive a move to Indigenous Services as a demotion from a portfolio she loved: justice.
Butts said Philpott then told the prime minister that she worried Wilson-Raybould might wonder if her move was connected to the "DPA issue." Trudeau assured her that move was not at all related to the DPA or SNC-Lavalin, but rather to Brison's departure and the need for an experienced minister to take over his Treasury Board portfolio.
Butts said that was the "first time I ever heard anyone suggest that this cabinet shuffle was in any way related to the SNC-Lavalin file."
Butts said he believes he and Wilson-Raybould had worked well together. "I felt like we could generally work things out," Butts said. He says trust between the two broke down in the context of the cabinet shuffle when Wilson-Raybould voiced displeasure with any sort of move.
More and Geppetto's opening statement:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gerry-butts-testifies-commons-committee-updates-1.5044709
Gerald Butts testifies at Commons justice committee: Key updates
Butts says the January cabinet shuffle had nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin affair at all, but rather was prompted by an unexpected, and swift, departure of former Nova Scotia minister Scott Brison. Butts says the prime minister had already made his pre-election shuffle and was happy with the existing lineup.
At first, Trudeau wanted to move Wilson-Raybould to the Indigenous Services portfolio, but she did something Butts says he has never seen before in government: she refused the position outright, saying she spent her whole career fighting the Indian Act.
Butts says he is not here to "quarrel with the former attorney general or say a single negative word about her personally," but adds that at all times, the Prime Minister's Office believed the decision to direct the director of public prosecutions to sign a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) with SNC-Lavalin would be hers to make.
Butts says because so many jobs are at stake — more than 9,000 direct jobs, but also the many in the company's supply chain — people in government suggested Wilson-Raybould should solicit outside legal counsel on whether it was appropriate for her to pursue a DPA.
Butts says Wilson-Raybould should have raised any and all concerns about what she has described as inappropriate pressure with the prime minister directly.
Butts said there was no co-ordinated effort inside the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) to pressure Wilson-Raybould to overrule the director of public prosecutions and negotiate a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) with SNC-Lavalin so it could avoid a trial over allegations it used bribery to secure government contracts in Libya.
"Absolutely not," he said when asked if he or anyone else exerted such influence on the former minister. "I really don't have an opinion on what decision the current or former attorney general should make. I'm glad I'm not in their shoes."
Butts also categorically denied that Wilson-Raybould was removed from cabinet because of her refusal to pursue a DPA — as she herself said under questioning last week — and said rather the shuffle was prompted solely by former Treasury Board president Scott Brison's unexpected December resignation.
Butts said he was not aware of her apparent discomfort about lobbying efforts on the SNC-Lavalin file until she was removed from the Justice portfolio in January 2019 as part of that shuffle.
Under questioning from NDP MP Charlie Angus, Butts said he has a "very different version of events" than does the former attorney general and would not "cast aspersions" on a former colleague for what he called her subjective take on the matter.
"What I am here to do is to give evidence that what happened last fall is in fact very different from the version of events you heard last week," he said.
Reading from text messages he exchanged with Wilson-Raybould, Butts told the committee that the only meeting he had with her on the issue was held at her request. Wilson-Raybould had testified that they both had sought out the Dec. 5 meeting at Ottawa's Chateau Laurier.
"Hey there GB — do you want to chat? I have a number of things to bring up … maybe you do as well? Tomorrow after Cabinet perhaps? Thx Jod," the text message from Wilson-Raybould said.
Butts suggested that if Wilson-Raybould requested the sit-down — which was to include discussion of files other than SNC-Lavalin — it would be unfair to say he personally had pressured her to take a particular course of action on the prosecution.
Butts said the government encouraged Wilson-Raybould to hire outside legal counsel — like former Supreme Court chief justice Beverley McLachlin — to solicit advice on whether she should sign a DPA.
"This was a novel law. It was the first time it had ever been used," Butts said.
Butts said the Prime Minister's Office wanted Wilson-Raybould to consider all options, given the potential for grave economic consequences for the company if it were convicted of the criminal offences.
"In a case like this when so many people's livelihoods are stake ... we took a really hard look at it because you want to be able, when you go knock on your doors on the weekend, you wanted to be able to look employees and pensioners in the eye and say, 'We gave this a good hard look.' That's all that was motivating us," he said.
Butts said the former attorney-general never made it clear to him that she had come to a final conclusion on the matter, adding he first learned she was not open to further intervention on this file from her appearance before the committee last week.
If Wilson-Raybould felt if the lobbying efforts to get her to consider hiring legal counsel for a second opinion on a DPA crossed the line, he said, "she had an obligation to at least inform the prime minister in writing."
Butts said he doesn't understand why Wilson-Raybould continued to accept meetings on the matter months after she is said to have made a final decision not to pursue a DPA.
"Why would there be a next step at all? Why would the Attorney-General take and solicit meetings on a closed matter?" Butts said.
Asked whether it was appropriate to mention an upcoming provincial election in Quebec in discussions about signing a DPA — something Wilson-Raybould said happened — Butts said public policy decisions are not made on the basis of electoral fortunes alone, and noted that the government concluded its NAFTA negotiations by agreeing to controversial dairy provisions that don't sit well with farmers in Quebec.
Under questioning from Conservative MP Lisa Raitt, Butts said the PMO was principally concerned about the fact that Wilson-Raybould only considered whether to pursue a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) for 12 days.
According to Wilson-Raybould's version of events last week, the director of public prosecutions decided on Sept. 4 not to pursue a DPA with SNC-Lavalin and Wilson-Raybould came to a similar conclusion on Sept. 16.
Speaking of his childhood in Cape Breton, where coal mining was once the dominant industrial employment, Butts said he hoped Ottawa considered the matter of closing the then Crown-owned coal operations for more than 12 days. When Cape Breton Development Corporation (DEVCO), the federal Crown corporation that ran the island's mines, wound down its operations, thousands of people lost their jobs.
Butts said Wilson-Raybould never told him she had made a final decision on this file by that date, which explains why lobbying efforts continued.
"My understanding is that nobody in the PMO or PCO [Privy Council Office] knew that at the time either. In fact, it is not to my knowledge how the law works. My understanding, which was informed by the public service and lawyers in the PMO, is that the attorney general's power to direct the DPP extends until the time a verdict is rendered," Butts said.
"My further understanding is that the attorney general is free to take advice on the decision until that point, and is obligated to bring fresh eyes to new evidence," he said.
Butts said the government suggested outside legal advice because the legislation allowing for a DPA was so new; it had only just been passed as part of omnibus budget legislation less than six months earlier, in spring 2018.
Butts said he believes Wilson-Raybould was "obliged" to consider new evidence in the case. The director of public prosecution herself reconsidered a DPA — when new evidence was presented by the company — on Oct. 9, he said.
Butts said the January cabinet shuffle had nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin affair at all but rather was prompted by the unexpected, and swift, departure of former Nova Scotia minister Scott Brison. "We had no idea he was even thinking about retirement," he said.
"Let me say at the outset, categorically, the January cabinet shuffle had absolutely nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin. In fact, I spent at least as much time working with colleagues to prevent the shuffle from happening as I did in preparing my advice for it," Butts said.
Butts said the prime minister already had made his pre-election shuffle and was happy with the existing lineup.
At first, Trudeau wanted to move Wilson-Raybould to the Indigenous Services portfolio, but she did something Butts said he has never seen before in government: she refused the position outright, saying she'd spent her whole career fighting the Indian Act.
Butts said Former Treasury Board president Jane Philpott flagged to the prime minister during an in-person meeting on Jan. 6, 2019 — before the actual shuffle — that Wilson-Raybould might perceive a move to Indigenous Services as a demotion from a portfolio she loved: justice.
Butts said Philpott then told the prime minister that she worried Wilson-Raybould might wonder if her move was connected to the "DPA issue." Trudeau assured her that move was not at all related to the DPA or SNC-Lavalin, but rather to Brison's departure and the need for an experienced minister to take over his Treasury Board portfolio.
Butts said that was the "first time I ever heard anyone suggest that this cabinet shuffle was in any way related to the SNC-Lavalin file."
Butts said he believes he and Wilson-Raybould had worked well together. "I felt like we could generally work things out," Butts said. He says trust between the two broke down in the context of the cabinet shuffle when Wilson-Raybould voiced displeasure with any sort of move.
More and Geppetto's opening statement:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gerry-butts-testifies-commons-committee-updates-1.5044709
I'm a protectionist, better termed a constructive nationalist, not an isolationist. Only Free Trade zealots refer to nationalists as isolationists or xenophobes.
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Butt, butt, butt..............what was all that about skipping the Regina pep rally to huddle with his advisors for advice so he can come out after Geppetto testified and give us yet another of his drama performances????
I see Butts doesn't see it as pressure but as lobbying efforts to change her mind OK got it Lol
Reflecting on Geppetto's testimony, I believe his statement about SNC Lavalin having nothing to do with the cabinet shuffle. I don't believe for a moment that he and the little potato were 'surprised' by Brison's resignation. I believe Brison was asked to leave due to his involvement in the Admiral Norman affair.
CTV is reporting that the liberals on the Justice Committee voted down a motion to recall Wilson-Raybould.
Wernick is testifying now. Once again a Conservative member is calling for the twit to be put under oath - once again it is denied
If anything, this inquiry is shining the spotlight on the cockroaches who actually run this country...maybe that's a good thing I guess.
The Liberals are constantly telling us that they were doing all this for the 9000 jobs in jeopardy...but it's not true...there were no jobs in jeopardy. SNC is an Engineering and General Contracting firm which bid on, and if successful, complete work in the jurisdiction that the construction project is proposed. If SNC is no longer allowed to bid on those projects, other engineering firms will get them, and the contractors and workers in that jurisdiction will still be employed...they'll still get those jobs. This tired line being fed to Canadians (particularly focused on Quebecers) is pure bullsh*t.
Every time the Liberals crow about hijacking a legal prosecution to try and save 9000 jobs in Quebec, one hundred and twenty thousand unemployed western Canadians bristle with frustration and anger.
Every time the Liberals crow about hijacking a legal prosecution to try and save 9000 jobs in Quebec, one hundred and twenty thousand unemployed western Canadians bristle with frustration and anger.