This summer may see first ice-free North Pole

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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Thanks for finding that.



And thanks for that. I'm going to have to spend a little time with both of them. It would be nice to see the full report.
Wait for Tonnington to buy it, he,ll share.

Yes, it is.




Of course nothing down here affects solar. Nobody suggested likewise. So let's dispense with that strawman. As for no functioning greenhouse gas effect, that's simple denial of reality on your part.
CO2 experiment - YouTube

And for those interested in the methods of the paper linked to by the dark rodent, an easy validation of those methods is found here:
Comment on “The phase relation between atmospheric carbon dioxide and global temperature” « Troy's Scratchpad

Spoiler alert, their results fail validation.
The sun is a strawman in your estimation then. I thought it was a handy initiator of global warming and should likely be considered in all investigations but you, re happy to employ next years CO2 to heat todays oceans. The only straw here keeps your ears from colapseing.

Comment: It seems that the basic problem in gaining acceptance for ionization technology is the facile description of what causes rain. And that is a problem inherited from the experts –’ the meteorologists and atmospheric scientists. The water molecule is fascinating because, unlike the nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the air, it is electrically polarized.
The oxygen (blue) side of the water molecule is more negative than the hydrogen side (red), forming an electric dipole.

In an electric field, the water molecule will rotate to line up with the field. When it condenses in a cloud the average electric dipole moment of a water molecule in a raindrop is 40 percent greater than that of a single water vapor molecule. This enhancement results from the large polarization caused by the electric field induced by surrounding water molecules. In the atmospheric electric field the water molecules will be aligned with their dipoles pointing vertically and in a sense that is determined by the charge polarization in the cloud. It is interesting to note that the tops of storm clouds are positively charged and the base is negative. That is the reverse of the radial charge polarization within the Earth itself. And it is this charge polarization that gives rise to the low-order attractive force we call gravity. So it is proposed that water droplets in clouds experience an antigravity effect. It appears to be related to the ‘Biefield-Brown Effect,’ where a charged high-voltage planar capacitor tends to move in the direction of the positive electrode. That effect may explain how millions of tons of water can be suspended kilometres above the ground, when cloud droplets are about 1,000 times denser than the surrounding air.
Of course, this raises the issue of charge separation in clouds. The conventional ‘isolated Earth’ view is that positive and negative charge is ‘somehow’ separated by vertical winds in clouds and that this process in thunderstorms is responsible for charging up the ionosphere and causing the atmospheric electric field. But this begs the question of cause and effect. Recent high-altitude balloon flights find that charge is not built up in the cloud, it already exists in the ionosphere above. In January 2002 I argued the electric universe model:

Electric Weather | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

Halton Arp’s appraisal of the effect of modern education seemed fitting, “If you take a highly intelligent person and give them the best possible, elite education, then you will most likely wind up with an academic who is completely impervious to reality.”
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
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thepeacecountry
Wait for Tonnington to buy it, he,ll share.
The sun is a strawman in your estimation then. I thought it was a handy initiator of global warming and should likely be considered in all investigations but you, re happy to employ next years CO2 to heat todays oceans. The only straw here keeps your ears from colapseing....

Your comment that, "Nothing down here effects solar output," was a strawman argument since noone has an argument with the statement. There is nothing in this statement from the study, " CO2 released from use of fossil fuels have little influence on the observed changes in the amount of atmospheric CO2, and changes in atmospheric CO2 are not tracking changes in human emissions." that means very much without more information. Little influence depends on what the authors consider little, and I question anybody who would make such a comment without better definition. The percentage of human caused increase of co2 is small compared to total co2. It is the fact of an increase that throws the system out of balance. Changes in atmospheric CO2 would not track changes in human emissions because some of the human emissions, (I've seen as high as 45%) are being reabsorbed into the ocean, soil and plant matter. The big question is how much of that CO2 can be absorbed before the natural cycle is saturated, bumps up a measure, and just starts releasing more to compensate.

As to the comments that changes in CO2 are lagging temperature changes, have a look at the explanation in the link that Tonington provided. If the authors of the Global and Planetary Change article have set up their model in an effort to prove a point rather than trying to discover a point that might explain why their findings are at such a distance from the scientific concensus.

Another factor that occurs when you look at it is a question about where you start a model like that. If anthropogenic CO2 increase is a steady growth, from the fifties, where does change occur that would be significant enough to describe as being either before or after the current temperature changes. The CO2 increases took off dramatically long before the study time frame, and temperatures did as well.
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
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thepeacecountry
There is no natural imbalance and nothing called scientific conscensus exists.

Is this that, whatchamacallit, newspeak, that George Orwell brought to our attention, War is Peace, Love is Hate, 97% of scientific opinion is not a concensus, adding something to one side of a balace beam does not create an imbalance?
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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the-brights.net
I've explained it to you before. Have you forgotten already? Try explaining cloud height with your electric universe hypothesis. I can do math, I'd like to see yours for theoretical limits on cloud height using first principles of your electric hypothesis.
Don't ask him to do math; neither he nor his "electric universe" heroes come up with any.
Beavers should stick to making things with sticks and eating bark.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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Is this that, whatchamacallit, newspeak, that George Orwell brought to our attention, War is Peace, Love is Hate, 97% of scientific opinion is not a concensus, adding something to one side of a balace beam does not create an imbalance?

You call climate change imbalance implying a fixed norm. Constant variation is the norm. I think you,re reacting to impending doom
like it,s unnatural. Scientific concensus would be if the science support the scientists claims and statements. Yardsticks, thermometers and telescopes all in agreement, that,s scientific concensus, a bunch of beholden academics scared ****less to lose tenure and face and funding certainly can,t be mistaken for scientific consensus. However I have fixed our spelling problem. CONSENSUS
The present climatic change is normal and regular.

Don't ask him to do math; neither he nor his "electric universe" heroes come up with any.
Beavers should stick to making things with sticks and eating bark.

Thank you for the interest Les. You know fate loves to be tested. I get a chuckle every time you invite the wrath of fate. You are a prime candidate for a lightning strike. Please have someone send pictures to CC
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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Wanna put that in English so it's coherent?

My english is flawles you hillbilly ruffian.

Hello kiddies please ask your science teacher tomorrow what keeps tons of rainwater in the sky. Of course you have the info below and they likely have some completely insane answer like the wind or hot air, both of which are cause not effect.
On second thought, don,t, they burn heretics still.db






So it is proposed that water droplets in clouds experience an antigravity effect. It appears to be related to the ‘Biefield-Brown Effect,’ where a charged high-voltage planar capacitor tends to move in the direction of the positive electrode. That effect may explain how millions of tons of water can be suspended kilometres above the ground, when cloud droplets are about 1,000 times denser than the surrounding air.

electric universe model:

Electric Weather | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

1000 times denser than air but still not nearly as dense as CO2 dogma.
 

beaker

Electoral Member
Jun 11, 2012
508
0
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thepeacecountry
You call climate change imbalance implying a fixed norm. Constant variation is the norm. I think you,re reacting to impending doom
like it,s unnatural. Scientific concensus would be if the science support the scientists claims and statements. Yardsticks, thermometers and telescopes all in agreement, that,s scientific concensus, a bunch of beholden academics scared ****less to lose tenure and face and funding certainly can,t be mistaken for scientific consensus. However I have fixed our spelling problem. CONSENSUS
The present climatic change is normal and regular.
First off, this is a comma , and this is an apostrophe ' a comma does not work very well as an apostrophe, comprehension wise.

You have created the implication of a fixed norm from my comments unjustifiably. One can have variation within a fixed range of parameters. When one of the parameters exceeds its normal range it leads to variation that is a result of imbalance between it and other factors. In this case that imbalance is causing problems which a lot of us don't want to have to deal with, which makes me think that it is outside the normal and regular.

Thank you for consensus, I'm not sure which looks odder.

consensus; an opinion held by all or most.

Now then from

Climate Change Consensus? | Weather Underground

"There is an overwhelming level of scientific consensus on human-caused climate change. Over 95% of actively publishing climate scientists agree that the earth is warming and that human activity is the cause.

These are the factors which they agree on, .The earth is getting warmer
.The warming is mostly due to human activity
.If greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions continue, the warming will accelerate "

It is all very well to say that this is only the result of fear, but I would have to see some proof that over 95% of actively publishing climate scientists are more worried about their jobs than they are about the fate of the planet, or its economy.
 
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gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
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My english is flawles you hillbilly ruffian.

Hello kiddies please ask your science teacher tomorrow what keeps tons of rainwater in the sky. Of course you have the info below and they likely have some completely insane answer like the wind or hot air, both of which are cause not effect.
On second thought, don,t, they burn heretics still.db






So it is proposed that water droplets in clouds experience an antigravity effect. It appears to be related to the ‘Biefield-Brown Effect,’ where a charged high-voltage planar capacitor tends to move in the direction of the positive electrode. That effect may explain how millions of tons of water can be suspended kilometres above the ground, when cloud droplets are about 1,000 times denser than the surrounding air.

electric universe model:

Electric Weather | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

1000 times denser than air but still not nearly as dense as CO2 dogma.


One small problem with your explanation there bubba. There are no water droplets in clouds. Once the moisture condenses into droplets, they fall.

So? Steel is more dense than water, and yet steel hulled boats float. Expand your scope rodent. :lol:


see above
 

Redmonton_Rebel

Electoral Member
May 13, 2012
442
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16
Arctic Sea Ice

The Arctic sea ice volume is at less than 4,000 km^3, less than 1/3 of what it was 30 years ago.

Which makes having a pinned thread on how the globe is cooling completely insane...or par for the course for this forum.

Some reality from Suzuki.

http://www.straight.com/article-770371/vancouver/david-suzuki-threat-melting-arctic-ice

The Arctic ice cap also helps regulate weather, affecting ocean currents and atmospheric circulation. “This ice has been an important factor in determining the climate and weather conditions under which modern civilization has evolved,” NASA chief scientist Waleed Abdalati told Associated Press. A study in the journal Geophysical Research Letters concludes that melting Arctic ice could lead to more extreme weather events, including drought, floods, heat waves, and cold spells—especially in Europe and North America.

Why not totally screw up the climate, almost 2/3s of the USA was in drought conditions this summer. How messed up do you truly have to be to not realize or care what's happening?

http://dawn.com/2012/08/28/in-climate-landmark-arctic-ice-melts-to-record-low/

The sea ice fell to 4.10 million square kilometers (1.58 million square miles), some 70,000 square kilometers (27,000 square miles) less than the earlier record charted on September 18, 2007, the center said.

Scientists said the record was all the more striking as 2007 had near perfect climate patterns for melting ice, but that the weather this year was unremarkable other than a storm in early August.

Michael E. Mann, a lead author of a major UN report in 2001 on climate change, said the latest data reflected that scientists who were criticized as alarmists may have shown “perhaps too great a degree of reticence.”

“I think, unfortunately, this is an example that points more to the worst-case scenario side of things,” said Mann, director of the Earth System Science Center at Penn State University.

“There are a number of areas where in fact climate change seems to be proceeding faster and with a greater magnitude than what the models predicted,”Mann told AFP.
 
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darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
You call climate change imbalance implying a fixed norm. Constant variation is the norm. I think you,re reacting to impending doom
like it,s unnatural. Scientific concensus would be if the science support the scientists claims and statements. Yardsticks, thermometers and telescopes all in agreement, that,s scientific concensus, a bunch of beholden academics scared ****less to lose tenure and face and funding certainly can,t be mistaken for scientific consensus. However I have fixed our spelling problem. CONSENSUS
The present climatic change is normal and regular.
First off, this is a comma , and this is an apostrophe ' a comma does not work very well as an apostrophe, comprehension wise.

You have created the implication of a fixed norm from my comments unjustifiably. One can have variation within a fixed range of parameters. When one of the parameters exceeds its normal range it leads to variation that is a result of imbalance between it and other factors. In this case that imbalance is causing problems which a lot of us don't want to have to deal with, which makes me think that it is outside the normal and regular.

Thank you for consensus, I'm not sure which looks odder.

consensus; an opinion held by all or most.

Now then from

Climate Change Consensus? | Weather Underground

"There is an overwhelming level of scientific consensus on human-caused climate change. Over 95% of actively publishing climate scientists agree that the earth is warming and that human activity is the cause.

These are the factors which they agree on, .The earth is getting warmer
.The warming is mostly due to human activity
.If greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions continue, the warming will accelerate "

It is all very well to say that this is only the result of fear, but I would have to see some proof that over 95% of actively publishing climate scientists are more worried about their jobs than they are about the fate of the planet, or its economy.

It/s a new fangled keyboard, there are soooo many little scratchy things on the keys I can't fin -----------mudder of doug there it is

1/ consensus is purchased like bolts doors and desks, the same lethargy which has crippled the economy has also damned academia--culture cancer
2/" fixed range of parameters" a fixed range is oxymoronic ain't it? The parameters of the climate on earth are quite wide and observable. Global catastrophic climate change has proceeded unaided by human intervention every single time in the past.
3/ There is virtually no chance that this present climate burp is in any way connectedto human activities.

Water vapor in rising air cools and condenses to forms clouds. The conventional explanation for rising air relies upon solar heating. The electrical weather model has an additional galactic energy source (the same that powers the Sun) to drive the movement of air. It is the same energy source that drives ferocious high-level winds on the giant outer planets, where solar energy is extremely weak. Once the water vapor condenses into water droplets it is more plausible that millions of tons of water can remain suspended kilometres above the Earth by electrical means, rather than by thermal updraughts. The clouds would act to reduce thermals.Electric Weather | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

One small problem with your explanation there bubba. There are no water droplets in clouds. Once the moisture condenses into droplets, they fall.



see above
Prove it.
 
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L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
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You don,t like anthropological thinking do you you less?
Still have no idea what you are gibbering about here. You mean I don't like anthropoligical thinking any less?

Wanna put that in English so it's coherent?

My english is flawles you hillbilly ruffian.
Yeah, right. What is a "you you less"?

Hello kiddies please ask your science teacher tomorrow what keeps tons of rainwater in the sky. Of course you have the info below and they likely have some completely insane answer like the wind or hot air, both of which are cause not effect.
On second thought, don,t, they burn heretics still.db






So it is proposed that water droplets in clouds experience an antigravity effect. It appears to be related to the ‘Biefield-Brown Effect,’ where a charged high-voltage planar capacitor tends to move in the direction of the positive electrode. That effect may explain how millions of tons of water can be suspended kilometres above the ground, when cloud droplets are about 1,000 times denser than the surrounding air.
electric universe model:

Electric Weather | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

1000 times denser than air but still not nearly as dense as CO2 dogma.[/QUOTE]Gibberish. A child can create a water cycle in a small container. Let's see you apply your idiotic "electric" model and produce a water cycle in an actual experiment.

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/watercyclesummary.html

So? Steel is more dense than water, and yet steel hulled boats float. Expand your scope rodent. :lol:
Really. People make pontoons out of concrete even (like the bridge at Kelowna, for instance).
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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the-brights.net
Thursday, August 30, 2012

New blockbuster paper finds man-made CO2 is not the driver of global warming
A substance doesn't have to be a driver to affect a change. Nor does that mean that it can't become a driver later.

The earth is not swathed in an emergency blanket of CO2.
There's no CO2 in the atmosphere? lol Your link says otherwise. Make up that teeny weeny little rodent mind of yours.
Nothing down here effects solar output,
I think you're right that nothing here affects solar output. It's stuff here that affects solar radiation after it gets here, though.
there,s no such thing as a functioning greenhouse gas effect.
Derp

http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/projects/greenhouse.html

So it is proposed that water droplets in clouds experience an antigravity effect. It appears to be related to the ‘Biefield-Brown Effect,’ where a charged high-voltage planar capacitor tends to move in the direction of the positive electrode. That effect may explain how millions of tons of water can be suspended kilometres above the ground, when cloud droplets are about 1,000 times denser than the surrounding air.
Big deal. Anything can be proposed. People propose dumbass shyte like flat planets, lemming suicides, and Alabama redefined the value of Pi to be 3, too.

Weather... thats what is happening.
lol It usually does happen, yes.