there's a train a comin

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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February 28, 111 Monday 2 AdarII 3871 10:48 IST http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=209574#

Photo by: AP
People get ready – there’s a train a-comin’ By LARRY DERFNER
23/02/2011
It’s become pretty clear to me how Israeli rule in the West Bank is going to end – through Palestinian people power. I would prefer that the occupation ended in orderly fashion, without chaos, with the settlers living near the Green Line feeling unthreatened and the others having plenty of time to relocate. Unfortunately, this is not happening; I’d hoped the Obama administration would pressure Israel out of the West Bank, but nobody’s pressuring it out of anything. The 43-year status quo becomes more entrenched each day.

Still, the bad blood has been rising – among the Palestinians, the Arabs, Europe, liberal America, and the bad blood in Israel has been rising in kind. Something’s going to blow, I figured, and my guess was that Israel would start one war too many, maybe against Iran, or Lebanon, or Gaza, and masses of Israelis as well as foreigners would die, and when the smoke cleared it would be recalled that we started it, and the world would finally run out of patience with us and we would get out of the West Bank in a lather to avoid being ostracized, to save ourselves from becoming a Jewish North Korea.

Again, not my preferred way of ending the occupation. But no “good” way was presenting itself.

And then came Tunisia. And Egypt. And Iran, and Yemen, and Bahrain, and Libya, and no one knows where this is going to stop.

And it became pretty clear to me that this is how Israeli rule in the West Bank is going to end – through Palestinian people power. Masses of Palestinians, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, marching to IDF checkpoints and outposts, marching to Israeli-only roads, to settlements, to the security fence – to the nearest Israeli presence and screaming, “Out! Out!”

And refusing to leave.

WHAT THE hell is the IDF going to do then? Shoot them? Arrest them? With the whole world not only watching but, for the first time, already won over by other unarmed Arab masses facing down their oppressors? What will the IDF do under the eyes of a world that, for the first time, is seeing Arabs as people like themselves who want freedom, who deserve it and who are earning it, to say the least, with their courage?

How will the IDF and the Palestinian Authority police – those who don’t defect – get all these people to go back home and stay there?

I don’t see it. I think we’re going to have grand-scale anarchy on our hands – and we won’t be able to solve it by force, and the world will be on the side of the anarchists.

Impossible? If you say this is impossible, you’ve been on Mars for the last month. If you’ve been on Earth, the idea of the Arab revolt not reaching the West Bank is what seems impossible. To me, it’s inevitable. I’m only surprised it hasn’t started already.

After all, the Palestinians’ “war of the stones,” the first intifada in the late 1980s, was close to being a model for what’s happening in the Middle East now. The Egyptians and other Arab rebels have even adopted the term intifada, which means “shaking off.”

True, the first intifada (not to mention the second one) wasn’t nonviolent – the Palestinians threw stones and Molotov cocktails. But they certainly played David to the IDF’s Goliath. And in recent years, the “popular resistance” – the marches on the security fence in Bil’in and other West Bank villages – has been all but nonviolent, with only a few teenagers throwing stones at IDF troops, usually from far distances.

The Palestinians are the Arab world’s masters at political judo – at turning the enemy’s superior power against him. This is how civil disobedience works, and it’s working wonders in the Middle East, so why on earth shouldn’t it come to the West Bank, too?

It’s a matter of time. Maybe it’ll start Friday with the Palestinians’ “Day of Rage” against the US veto of the UN resolution against settlements. If not Friday, it’ll start soon. Something will set it off.

And yes, I’m hoping it happens. If the only other options are occupation forever or peace following catastrophe – and I think those are the only other options – I prefer people power.

It’s going to be messy. Bibi Netanyahu will be pounding the table for negotiations, and the Palestinians massed at the checkpoints, settlements and security fence will say, “Negotiations? Hmm... how about no? How about you people just get off our land? How about you people just get off our necks? Until then, we’re not leaving.”

Who’s going to save our bacon then? Barack Obama? AIPAC? Sarah Palin?

I don’t know how this is going to play out; there are 300,000 settlers living in the West Bank, 100,000 of them on the far side of the security fence. If there’s a “rosewater revolution” or something, if the IDF is helpless against it and if the whole world sides with the rebels, then we’re going to have an emergency on our hands over there.

If I were running the government, I would think about building mobile home parks for settlers – lots of them. I would think about setting aside billions of dollars to compensate these families for their lost homes.

The image of bewildered, broken families streaming out of the settlements gives me no joy. I wish this terrible sin that Israel committed by conquering the Palestinians could be undone in a less traumatic way. But conquerors tend to grow smug, they think that because they’re calling the shots they’ve got all the time in the world, then one day they find out that the earth, in fact, does not stand still.

It’s happened once or twice in history, it’s happening across the Middle East now, it’ll happen in the West Bank soon. Justice is coming our way, and I sincerely hope it doesn’t turn out to be too rough.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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There is only one way to pump Kurd oil to the Med and fuel Jew industry and that is through Jordan and Palestine/Israel and to do that means Palestine getting a cut. I'm pretty sure Syria will tell them to **** off.
 

The Old Medic

Council Member
May 16, 2010
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How come, during the 20 years that the Arabs controlled the West Bank and Gaza, they did not allow the country of Palestine to come into being?

Instead, Jordan annexed the land of the West Bank into their country, closed off East Jeruseleum to all Israeli's, and Egypt occupied and annexed the Gaza Strip.

It was ONLY after Israel defeated those two countries in war, that they suddenly decided that they would give up that territory, declaring that it was supposed to become the State of Palestine.

They had 20 years to form Palestine, but refused to do so. But the Israeli's are wrong and the Arabs are all without fault (at least according to the modern day version of the Nazi's, like the poster of this topic!)
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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How come, during the 20 years that the Arabs controlled the West Bank and Gaza, they did not allow the country of Palestine to come into being?

Instead, Jordan annexed the land of the West Bank into their country, closed off East Jeruseleum to all Israeli's, and Egypt occupied and annexed the Gaza Strip.

It was ONLY after Israel defeated those two countries in war, that they suddenly decided that they would give up that territory, declaring that it was supposed to become the State of Palestine.

They had 20 years to form Palestine, but refused to do so. But the Israeli's are wrong and the Arabs are all without fault (at least according to the modern day version of the Nazi's, like the poster of this topic!)

You haven't the guts to condemn the Israeli that wrote the piece so you do the cowardly stupid and transparent thing and direct your hate and fear toward me the poster. You must be a zionist and I have to thank you for your lack of approval for me. The world dosn't need the long dead Nazis anymore to shoulder justifiable hatred, we have contemporary Israel, land of liars and murderers of children and women. Scum of the earth. Feel the fear and see the future that Mr Derfner knows is on the tracks for Israel. Nobody will miss them.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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You haven't the guts to condemn the Israeli that wrote the piece so you do the cowardly stupid and transparent thing and direct your hate and fear toward me the poster. You must be a zionist and I have to thank you for your lack of approval for me. The world dosn't need the long dead Nazis anymore to shoulder justifiable hatred, we have contemporary Israel, land of liars and murderers of children and women. Scum of the earth. Feel the fear and see the future that Mr Derfner knows is on the tracks for Israel. Nobody will miss them.

Sure don't take much to get jew haters all in a lather.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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You haven't the guts to condemn the Israeli that wrote the piece so you do the cowardly stupid and transparent thing and direct your hate and fear toward me the poster. You must be a zionist and I have to thank you for your lack of approval for me. The world dosn't need the long dead Nazis anymore to shoulder justifiable hatred, we have contemporary Israel, land of liars and murderers of children and women. Scum of the earth. Feel the fear and see the future that Mr Derfner knows is on the tracks for Israel. Nobody will miss them.

Your opinion of Israel is well known. It does not matter who wrote the article. That is not relevant. The point is massive and peaceful demonstrations where the Palestinians hold their own to account for any violence. It works both ways.

Myself I wondered for decades on how many decades it would take the Palestinians to catch on to massive but peaceful demonstrations under the glare of media - unbiased media - Gandhi sent the Brits on there way using this tactic -

This was also mentioned in a novel about 20 years ago.

Problem is that some want peace and some want Israel and all Jews exterminated.

Do I think they are capable of such a controlled demonstration without any violence directed at Israeli Troops. Low probability. But I would hope that I was wrong. That would be the start of mutual peace and the long road to end the hatred.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Your opinion of Israel is well known. It does not matter who wrote the article. That is not relevant. The point is massive and peaceful demonstrations where the Palestinians hold their own to account for any violence. It works both ways.

Myself I wondered for decades on how many decades it would take the Palestinians to catch on to massive but peaceful demonstrations under the glare of media - unbiased media - Gandhi sent the Brits on there way using this tactic -

This was also mentioned in a novel about 20 years ago.

Problem is that some want peace and some want Israel and all Jews exterminated.

Do I think they are capable of such a controlled demonstration without any violence directed at Israeli Troops. Low probability. But I would hope that I was wrong. That would be the start of mutual peace and the long road to end the hatred.

You are delusional, the long road of lies and brutality by Israel is the only thing that nears an end. Reading Israeli papers one is made perfectly aware of the origin of the hate. Exactly who wants Israel and all Jews exterminated? I have never heard such rubbish unless it came from zionist idiots who hide behind the skirts of religion and peaceful Jews. Jews will dance in the streets all over the world when the zionist state falls.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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You are delusional, the long road of lies and brutality by Israel is the only thing that nears an end. Reading Israeli papers one is made perfectly aware of the origin of the hate. Exactly who wants Israel and all Jews exterminated? I have never heard such rubbish unless it came from zionist idiots who hide behind the skirts of religion and peaceful Jews. Jews will dance in the streets all over the world when the zionist state falls.


Now you are being delusional. Not I my friend. I brought forth valid points. Yet you attack the messenger knowing that what I wrote is reasonable & rational.
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
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...Exactly who wants Israel and all Jews exterminated? I have never heard such rubbish unless it came from zionist idiots who hide behind the skirts of religion and peaceful Jews. Jews will dance in the streets all over the world when the zionist state falls.

If I were a Palestinian I would want to pay the Israelis back measure for measure. That's human nature. Don't deny human nature and pretend the Palestinians don't want to kill Jews. That just isn't believable.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Now you are being delusional. Not I my friend. I brought forth valid points. Yet you attack the messenger knowing that what I wrote is reasonable & rational.

I know nothing of the sort.

If I were a Palestinian I would want to pay the Israelis back measure for measure. That's human nature. Don't deny human nature and pretend the Palestinians don't want to kill Jews. That just isn't believable.

Don't deny that mercy and compassion have been extended by victors in the past. It is the ultimate expression of strength and wisdom. You don't believe because you don't know.
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
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...
Don't deny that mercy and compassion have been extended by victors in the past. It is the ultimate expression of strength and wisdom. You don't believe because you don't know.

Do you mean mercy and compassion the way the Red Army extended it to the German people in the aftermath of WWII? Do you mean the way the Ottomans extended mercy and compassion to the Byzantines in 1453 CE? Do you mean the way the Americans extended mercy and compassion to the Sioux at Wounded Knee? Can you cite an example of a non-Western people who have extended mercy and compassion to a defeated people in the past? I can only think of the way the Americans treated the Germans and Japanese in the aftermath of WWII.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Do you mean mercy and compassion the way the Red Army extended it to the German people in the aftermath of WWII? Do you mean the way the Ottomans extended mercy and compassion to the Byzantines in 1453 CE? Do you mean the way the Americans extended mercy and compassion to the Sioux at Wounded Knee? Can you cite an example of a non-Western people who have extended mercy and compassion to a defeated people in the past? I can only think of the way the Americans treated the Germans and Japanese in the aftermath of WWII.

The Americans starved two millions of Germans after hostilities ended in Europe and Japan remains an occupied country to this day. Maybe you fear what you have sown. Well I can't say you are wrong to be concerned, it is however the future of Israel that it cast in iron by its own deeds of the genocide conducted on the Palestinian people for over sixty years. If Israel has any hope of survival in some form it must make honest peace with Palestine and it must accept Palestinian rule. Those are the hard facts Israel faces and those are the hard decisions it must make or it will face the ire of the entirety of the planet. Israel has educated the planet to the fact that it is not to be trusted on any account.
Cyrus the Persian extended mercy and compassion to everyone of the defeated of Babylon even to the five hundred thousand Jews who he equipped and released to resettle Judea after three hundred years in captivity.


Typical zionist propaganda rubbish.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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The Arab world does not want a Palestinian State anymore than Israel does.
If the Palestinians were to have a home the Arab World would have to say
there was a deal with the Jews. It would also mean there would be no more
neighbourhood Martyr to point to for an Arab cause.
On the other hand if there was a Palestinian State right next door to the seat
of Israeli power the security of the country would be at risk.
All this talk about Israel being solely responsible is nonsense. There are so
many axes to grind in the Middle East, there is no time for anyone to suggest
making peace. And no, Israel is not less to blame they are all to blame including
the Western Powers who ensure the talks go on without any significant action.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
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Do you mean mercy and compassion the way the Red Army extended it to the German people in the aftermath of WWII? Do you mean the way the Ottomans extended mercy and compassion to the Byzantines in 1453 CE? Do you mean the way the Americans extended mercy and compassion to the Sioux at Wounded Knee? Can you cite an example of a non-Western people who have extended mercy and compassion to a defeated people in the past? I can only think of the way the Americans treated the Germans and Japanese in the aftermath of WWII.


True enough, but the Americans are not a non-Western people. BTW the Israeli aren't either.
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
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...Cyrus the Persian extended mercy and compassion to everyone of the defeated of Babylon even to the five hundred thousand Jews who he equipped and released to resettle Judea after three hundred years in captivity...

Cyrus incorporated both the Babylonians and Israelites into his empire as conquered peoples. Cyrus subjugated them. Subjugation is not mercy or compassion. Babylon disappeared as an entity.

Can you think of any real examples? Why do you think it would be good for the Israelis to live under Palestinian subjugation? They would end up like the Christian Copts of Egypt or the Christians of Iraq. Second class citizens.

True enough, but the Americans are not a non-Western people. BTW the Israeli aren't either.

I know. That wasn't the point.