There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

[mabudon]

RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

yes, #juan, the reporting on the day the story broke pretty much INSISTED that the audience understand that the amount of fertilizer was THREE TIMES THE AMOUNT USED IN THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBINGS and a lot of reports actually used pics of that event to give you "perspective" (which is a perfect example of what I was mentioning in my last post) many more facts have come out but they never got all-caps headlines or once-every-15-minute repetition like that little tidbit did

And I,too,wondered when I heard of the RCMP involvement- not saying either or at this point, but as a possibility I would not rule out the "sellers" being at least partially "responsible" for the amount- when I initially heard the level of involvement, I truly wondered how such involvement might hurt the case - a good friend of mine is an RCMP undercover vice investigator/agent, and the rules surrounding his particular field of work are pretty insane- when doing prostitution sweeps, for instance (the undercover setup ones) they must be SUPER careful, speaking meticulously scripted lines(on his first operation he got in a bit of trouble when he suggested that he wanted to ask a suspected prostitute a few REALLY colourful questions pertaining to rather depraved sexual acts- he was told to stick to the script or ELSE), be VERY aware of body language and all that stuff for fear of doing ANYTHING which could impede or even negate a conviction

So who knows how that all might play out

and ITN- I don't know why "they" would choose this route, but that's what "they" did, it must make perfect sense to someone

 

[sanch]

My memory is that the first newspaper reports were vague as they usually tend to be. Complicating the reporting was that no newspaper except the Toronto Star had anyone assigned to this kind of beat. Thus most Canadian newspapers were in the rather awkward position of having to report on a big news story with few facts.

Once there was an official new conference the reason for the arrests were clearly outlined. There had been ongoing surveillance for a number of years. The motives and the stage of the operation was known to authorities. They had equipment to carry out the operation. At this point they only needed one more ingredient and that was the fertilizer. If the suspects had obtained possession of the fertilizer they had a bomb ready to go and it was only a matter of a short ride to the targets.

The authorities had no choice but to intervene. What was the option? Let them have the bomb and blow up some building and kill innocent people. That is what is being suggested here.

 

[mabudon]

RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

The authorities had no choice but to intervene. What was the option? Let them have the bomb and blow up some building and kill innocent people. That is what is being suggested here.

By whom, exactly, cos if you're referring to ME, you are DEAD wrong and have a hard time reading too

 

[Karlin]

perhaps they are not terrorists at all:
http://www.straightgoods.ca/ViewFeature6.cfm?REF=370

Security sting of terror suspects seems a bit too pat and may well be.

Dateline: Tuesday, June 06, 2006

by Ish Theilheimer

Last weekend, federal and Toronto authorities swooped down on and arrested 17 Canadian Muslim youth and young men for allegedly plotting to bomb landmarks and public buildings. It is alarming to think that "home-grown" acts of terror are likely or inevitable, as many reporters and sources are convinced. It is just as alarming when an ideologically-driven government uses an event to drive support for itself and a harsh agenda of pro-American foreign policy and repressive American-style policing and legislation at home.

No country is immune from terrorism, but neither is any country safe from politically-motivated and heavy-handed police operations that are intended to scare the public as much as to protect them. We should wonder about the credibility of a sting operation and media circus headed up by Stockwell Day, whose penchant for hyperbole is well known. (His partner in ideology is Justice Minister Vic Toews). We should also wonder why the media is not more cautious.

There is reason to believe there are Muslim extremists in Canada. But there are also a lot of holes in what is being presented to the public. Unfortunately, Canada's news media have, for the most part, told the story to the public much as the government and police have told it. Then they have moved on to discussions about why young Muslims in Canada would turn to violence. This skips an important part of the proceeding — proof and a trial — and proceeds quickly to incitement of racism and reactionary measures.



The police, for instance, linked the suspects to the terrorist group Al Qaeda, without providing evidence, claiming the suspects were "inspired" by Al Qaeda.

One of the few journalistic exceptions has been, surprisingly, in the Toronto Sun, where Eric Margolis wrote:

"Before we rush to judgment, it's worth remembering the 19 foreign students, mostly from Pakistan, arrested in 2003 in and around Toronto, allegedly for plotting to blow up the nuclear reactors at Pickering or the CN Tower.

"After a huge media uproar and lurid claims the charges were dropped and the accused deported for visa irregularities... These raids... against a relatively small number of mostly young Muslim suspects in Mississauga, Toronto and Kingston suggest this high-profile operation may have been designed as much for public relations and diplomatic reasons as national security. No doubt, Washington will be very pleased...

"FBI and Canadian authorities believe they have uncovered an important terrorist cell plotting major attacks in Canada and the US, but the FBI's track record to date has not been impressive. Recall that of the more than 2000 Muslims arrested in the US since 2001 for suspicion of terrorism, less than 15 were convicted, and those mostly for minor visa offenses."

Margolis believes terrorist attacks in Canada are a certainty given Canada's involvement in Afghanistan. He is, however, one of few media voices expressing skepticism about the Toronto arrests.

Two others appear in the Toronto Star: Linda Diebel and Thomas Walkom.

Diebel vividly described the first media view of the suspects: "under massive police security which included sharpshooters on nearby roofs and tactical squad officers with submachine-guns, suspects were brought in leg irons to the provincial courthouse in Brampton."

"These events," she writes, "were as much about creating an image for the public as about charging the individuals. And it's an image, they argue, that could hurt the right of the accused 12 men and five youths to a fair trial."

The police, for instance, linked the suspects to the terrorist group Al Qaeda, without providing evidence, claiming the suspects were "inspired" by Al Qaeda.

Diebel quotes US security expert John Pike of Virginia as saying, about the Canadian police show of force. "They are putting on a good spectacle, a show. We are used to that here. There has been an inexorable militarization of the police in the United States since the 1980s, but there has been a substantial ratcheting up of security since 9/11."

Also in The Star Tom Walkom pointed to many inconsistencies:

"What we do know about Operation O-Sage is that the RCMP, as well as the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, have been tracking the suspects since 2004. We also know that at least some of their neighbours knew police were watching them. Presumably, some of the suspects did, too.

"If the alleged conspirators knew they were under surveillance, it seems odd that they continued along merrily with plans to make explosives.

"But perhaps they are not bright terrorists. Or perhaps they are not terrorists at all.

"With luck, we will get these answers at trial. This time at least, Canada has chosen to deal with alleged terrorists in the proper way, by charging them with criminal offences and allowing the case to come to court in Canada."

He contrasts this with the case in 2002 where CSIS agents escorted alleged Canadian terrorist Mohamed Mansour Jabarah across the border to be arrested by the FBI. Then there was the New York arrest (with RCMP cooperation) of Canadian Maher Arar, who was later transferred to Syria and tortured.

The recent Muslim round-up just happened to dovetail perfectly with the political agenda of Canada's new federal RepubliCon government. Police action shows the government is tough on crime. It ingratiates Canada to George W Bush and America. And it builds political support for more American, repressive police work.

Does it make Canadians any safer?

Canadians, under Harper, can look forward to a lot more of this sort of stuff, with the Harpocrats using this event much as Bush did after 9/11 to move forward on an imperial agenda.

Straight Goods makes no apologies or excuses for those who would kill innocent people. We do not dismiss the possibility that there may be some among those arrested who are making such plans. However, we expect our national media to have professional skepticism and concern for the public interest when reporting these arrests and the police and political circus surrounding them.

Ish Theilheimer has been Publisher of the leading, independent Canadian online magazine Straight Goods since founding it in January 2000. He lives in Golden Lake ON, in the Ottawa Valley.

See? Its not just me, a one-off whacko... its anyone with eyes open.
Karlin

 

[#juan]

One more thought,

The ammonium nitrate was fake. Why not let them try to blow something up with it. That, I would think, would be solid evidence. As it is, I can see a lot of potential problems prosecuting them.

 

[mabudon]

RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

LOL #juan, that is WAY too smart, the right-wing media would be all over it down south presenting us as incompetent, whereas setting these jokers up with totally inert "explosives" and actually catching them most embarrassingly red-handed would have been a genius way to go- hell, I can almost imagine a DVD release of the Worlds Poorest Terror Attack- I might even buy that sucker

 

[#juan]

Hey mabudon

There could be a movie. We coiuld call it, "The Mouse That Roared 2" Too bad Peter Sellers isn't around to play the chief bad guy.

 

[fuflans]

Hey mabudon

There could be a movie. We coiuld call it, "The Mouse That Roared 2" Too bad Peter Sellers isn't around to play the chief bad guy.

That's sooooooooo 1963

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057328/

 

[Karlin]

Ok, so that article from Straight Goods, on p4 of this thread, is a bit long for people who allready have their minds made up, so I will break it down into bite sized blurbs:

The recent Muslim round-up just happened to dovetail perfectly with the political agenda of Canada's new federal RepubliCon government. Police action shows the government is tough on crime. It ingratiates Canada to George W Bush and America. And it builds political support for more American, repressive police work.

Does it make Canadians any safer?

Canadians, under Harper, can look forward to a lot more of this sort of stuff, with the Harpocrats using this event much as Bush did after 9/11 to move forward on an imperial agenda.

So its not just my idea that the Toronto 17 incident was either fully faked or just "media warped" to gain support for occupation of Afghanistan by Canadian military, alongside the American forces, and for the benefits of corporations who are trying to build a pipeline across Afghanstan, among other goals there.

here is the link again:
http://www.straightgoods.ca/ViewFeature6.cfm?REF=370

 

[sanch]

Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

The authorities had no choice but to intervene. What was the option? Let them have the bomb and blow up some building and kill innocent people. That is what is being suggested here.

By whom, exactly, cos if you're referring to ME, you are DEAD wrong and have a hard time reading too

if one looks empirically at it, seems to have been getting the most taxpayer dollars into private hands, when you strip away all the emotional crap that is exactly what has happened and the facts about this are publicly known, BUT there is little outcry because the issue is not presented truthfully to the largely ignorant public- you can try to say this is not true and raise the spectre of the mushroom clouds or whatever, but without all the windowdressing, George Bush has more or less bankrupted the US under flase pretenses- OH and just in case anyone DOES manage to put 2+2 together, there are other ways of dealing with them- marginalizing them, arresting them without detention, you know, the kind of thing that gets done around here whenever ANYONE questions the "official view" (and I have yet to see any question of the official view get treated with anything more than derision, at BEST)

Well I have tried to disassemble or deconstruct this and I still come to the conclusion that you seem to think 1) This is all some type of a charade orchestrated by the government, a suggestion I find ludicrous. 2) And you suggest that they could have been marginalized or arrested without detention as alternatives. The outcome of what you suggest I believe may have been the carrying out of a terrorist act in Canada.

My view of what 2 + 2 equals and yours is probably very different. I really don’t care if you think I am part of the ignorant public. And it is your prerogative to believe you exist on some higher plain of intelligence.

At the same time the hysteria you are trying to promote with references to mushroom clouds and swift-boat deceptions is intended to raise questions about anything law enforcement is doing in Canada to protect the Canadian public. So it is not only you who have rights.

 

[the caracal kid]

since this thread has included talk of what the perceived risk vs the real risk of a successful terrorist attack on canadian soil, this article seems to fit here:

Majority believe terrorists will hit Canada
BRIAN LAGHI

OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF

Canadians are increasingly convinced that their nation will suffer a terrorist strike within the next few years and that the mission in Afghanistan makes it more likely.

But a rising number of Canadians also say they support the mission in the strife-torn country, according to a new poll taken in the wake of last week's arrests of alleged terrorists in Toronto.

"There's a recognition that this is just part of the world we live in right now and that we have to participate in it," said Allan Gregg, chairman of the Strategic Counsel, the firm that conducted the poll for The Globe and Mail/CTV News.

"It's part of almost an international realism."

The wide-ranging survey also suggests that Canadians don't believe their immigration laws need overhauling and that they are somewhat more confident that their security forces are well-prepared to deal with a terrorist threat. An overwhelming majority do believe the arrests will cause a backlash against the Muslim community in Canada, but Mr. Gregg said the poll generally reflects a Canada that is not prepared to give up its basic cultural tolerance or the rule of law.

... snip...

A new poll generally reflects that Canada is not prepared to give up its basic cultural tolerance or the rule of law.

How likely is it that an act of terrorism will take place in Canada within the next few years?

Aug. 3-7, 2005
Likely 62%
Not likely 36%
Don't know 2%
Jun. 7-8, 2006
Likely 71%
Not likely 26%
Don't know 4%

How likely is it that Canada will be a target of terrorism because it has troops in Afghanistan?

Aug. 3-7, 2005
No bearing 44%
Not likely 13%
Likely 38%
Don't know 5%
Jun. 7-8, 2006
No bearing 34%
Not likely 5%
Likely 56%
Don't know 5%

How well prepared is Canada to deal with a terrorist threat?

Aug. 3-7, 2005
Not well prepared 67%
Well prepared 25%
Don't know 8%
Jun. 7-8, 2006
Not well prepared 56%
Well prepared 37%
Don't know 7%

Do Canadians believe the terrorism arrests will cause a backlash against the Muslim community?

Jun. 7-8, 2006
Serious backlash 74%
Not much backlash 22%
Don't know 4%

Do Canadians Support or Oppose Sending Troops To Afghanistan?

Jun. 7-8, 2006
Support 48%
Oppose 44%
Don't know 8%

*Numbers may not add up to 100 due to rounding

SOURCE: THE STRATEGIC COUNSEL

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060610.wxterrorpoll10/BNStory/National/home

 

[mabudon]

RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

1) This is all some type of a charade orchestrated by the government, a suggestion I find ludicrous

Not even close, and it's folks loudmouthing BS that is the problem with this whole situation, though I do think that it didn't hurt the current government and seeemingly may have even helped by making spooky headlines

2) And you suggest that they could have been marginalized or arrested without detention as alternatives. The outcome of what you suggest I believe may have been the carrying out of a terrorist act in Canada.

Okay, you just got my post totally wrong here, is all, I meant that the "big moves" such as the MSM's fearmongering and bombast on the day this story was released (or is THAT not a fact either but some figment of my looney imagination??? argue if you like but it was just last week and my memory is not that short) are the main method, and just in case promoting marginalization of question-askers, the ones that actually CAN put 2+2 together (NEVER did I intend "marginalization" as a strategy for stopping vandals or "terrorists" as you seem to have gotten from my post) is a good back-up policy, and if these questioners gain any traction, use the new sweeping laws to shut them up otherwise

My view of what 2 + 2 equals and yours is probably very different. I really don’t care if you think I am part of the ignorant public. And it is your prerogative to believe you exist on some higher plain of intelligence.

I AM a very intelligent fellow, but it's not like I'm the only one man, and I was NEVER attempting to label you as ignorant so I apologize for you taking it that way, just anyone who would immediately call for rounding up all the muslims cos they're terrified of them now that "all of them are suspects" and the folks who now think we must "fight them where they live" without knowing who "they" even are or why they exist, and this would go a long way into shoring up popular support for our stupid waste in Afghanistan AND give the loudmouths a talking point to yell- namely "We ARE under attack" which is silly on so many levels, yet to deny it or question it is labelled as being a "terrorist denier" "sympathizer" whatever

At the same time the hysteria you are trying to promote with references to mushroom clouds and swift-boat deceptions is intended to raise questions about anything law enforcement is doing in Canada to protect the Canadian public. So it is not only you who have rights.

MAN you were so wrong on this that I just HAD to correct it to- you are HONESTLY accusing ME of trying to PROMOTE HYSTERIA?? after last weeks "THREE TIMES THE EXPLOSIVE USED IN THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBINGS IN THE POSSESION OF AN AL-QUAEDA INSPIRED TERROR CELL WHO PLANNED TO BLOW UP THE PARLIAMENT AND DECAPITATE THE PM"
since ROFLMAO has kinda lost its "zest" I don't know how to describe what happened when I read that post man... if I'd been drinking anything at that very moment you would owe me a new keyboard, that is quite honestly the funniest thing I've seen on this site yet, and that's saying something

To the other p[articipants in this discussion- is that REALLY how my posts come out??? If so, I may have to stop posting here as my english and logic seems SOOO foreign

Seriously, you somehow didn't get what I said SO BADLY that I had to reply, if only to save me from having idiots quote my posts out of context in other threads (not calling you an idiot either so chill, but there are others here who do such things)

 

[Karlin]

This has deteriorated into the usual name-calling cr*p.

The subject has all but been lost now. Its getting very convoluted, difficult to follow even one post's ideas.

Points:
- It is not ludicrous, it is plausable that the arrests are a charade to get support for the militarisation agenda of Harper, a la BushCo.

- The media is complicit in public fearmongering, portraying this incident in only one light, lacking "journalistic balance" by not mentioning the lack of fertlilizer, and implying the bomb was ready to go and "blow a hole hree times the size of the Oklahoma bombing".

 

[mabudon]

RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

Sorry Karlin, I was really trying to stay on-point and address what had been so wrongly attributed to me, I really wasn't calling anyone names and hope THAT wasn't misconstrued too, I just felt that sanch's post so totally misrepresented every single post I'd made so far in this thread that I had to post my corrections, cos I felt that both the content and the manner of delivery of his/her explanations of my posts was kinda insulting and totally incorrect, and I wanted whatever discussion may ensue to be held free of anyone trying to put words in other folks mouths

 

[Graeme]

Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

Umm Fertilizer nor ammonium nitrate is tracked by law in big quantities. In fact it is completely voluntary, farms order upwards of 10 tonnes and no one bats an eye.

But these guys wern't farmers. Plus the police had been watching them for years.

 

[Karlin]

mabudon, I wasn't actually referring to you, because you didn't start name-calling and personal insults. In fact, you have been very supportive of what I am trying to do here.

As for graeme, why do you say that? - I heard the police say on TV that "all large fertilizer orders are carefully monitored to go only to known farmers".

So ya, maybe we are both right, the point being that people who are not officially registered as farmers, a taxform information thing, will be scrutinized by police when trying to get large fert orders. Thats what they said on TV, more or less. I believe it, its not hard to do. I worked in a farm supply place, and we knew the farmers, and we would have noticed a non farmer for sure. Its all "local", where outsiders or unknowns are noticed.

 

[akpower]

What was that white powder then and why was in such large quantities?

Also, why did they order so much fertilizer anywayz?

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

What was that white powder then and why was in such large quantities?

Also, why did they order so much fertilizer anywayz?

How SCRS pretent the terrorist to be professional, and on the other hand the terrorist knew they were spyed by the police?How can you planified big murder, like killing harper and ordering big amount of nitrate , when you know you are constantly spyed?


According to suspected terrorist, they thought the SCRS would only observed their terrorist act, but not arrest them, sorry but this story just don't make sense, and came at a very needed moment, like secret service budget, the jusfiication of canadians troops in afganisthan.

 

[akpower]

^^ i agreew/most of ur points but that still doens't answer those questions...

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

^^ i agreew/most of ur points but that still doens't answer those questions...

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Their sights are lousy.

The safety is placed in a very poor position, as you have to completely remove one hand from the firing position to engage/disengage the safety.

The safety goes CLANK when pushed off.

The rifle is poorly balanced.

The rifle is not very accurate.

But it does WORK!