There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

Vicious said:
the caracal kid said:
Safety is in understanding the threats.

The greater threats to you are closer than terrorism.

Terrorism should be one of the least of your worries.

Of course, the truth is people are raised to accept authority and trust authority. They are "the good guys". :lol: Most people do not like having their frameworks questioned. It raises uncertianty. Far better to live in the coccoon than step into the realities of the world. Challenge your own constructs.

I'm frightened that I'm starting to understand you. In order to confirm my understanding...

If you're saying life is a precious thing to be savoured every step of the way and that you would rather live your life by thumbing your nose at would be terrorists than alter your life one bit and show them the power of their threat. Then I'm behind you 100%. F*** 'em and let them rot in hell.

On the other hand, if your are saying all life is a waste of time and we're all just worm food walking around looking for that event that will plant us in the ground permanently. I can't support that. However, I've been there as well. But like alot of the people on this forum, I grew up, realized that the world wasn't being played out just for my entertainment and that when people die they don't just hit the Start Again button and then the game is back on.

No, I am not saying life is a waste if time....

Life is indeed precious,

but,

we have to weigh the threats properly, and understand the root causes of the threats we face, rather than have knee-jerk reactions to the superficial.

as for you, swifty,
Please stay with the program rather than throwing out nonsense in an attempt to divert from the real issues. I understand that you can't attack what I am saying so you resorted to attacking me, though.
 

Swifty

New Member
May 19, 2006
37
0
6
Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

the caracal kid said:
why?

because a few people didn't get blown up?

your right. blowing them up would disrupt industry and not serve the intrests of the government well. Keeping the minions slaving away, now that serves their purpose. Should they die from exposure to toxins, or other reasons after enough exploitation, well thats ok. We would not want to shut down the meat-robot lines, would we.

There will always be malcontents. It just so happens the minions are told to be happy to be safe so that they will willingly continue to be exploited. "Oh no, there is a big bad terrorist out there that might just have killed a few people. Good thing our government which through its actions kills thousands of people a year stopped it. Now I am much safer". :lol:


I think you started the insults to us all when you made this statement above.


Your Ideology or simplistic rationale is to excuse the loss of perhaps thousands of Canadian lives by terrorists, because it doesn't compare to our government which through its actions kills thousands of people a year.

How does our government kill thousands per year and why is this worse than being blown up by terrorists ?
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

Swifty said:
the caracal kid said:
why?

because a few people didn't get blown up?

your right. blowing them up would disrupt industry and not serve the intrests of the government well. Keeping the minions slaving away, now that serves their purpose. Should they die from exposure to toxins, or other reasons after enough exploitation, well thats ok. We would not want to shut down the meat-robot lines, would we.

There will always be malcontents. It just so happens the minions are told to be happy to be safe so that they will willingly continue to be exploited. "Oh no, there is a big bad terrorist out there that might just have killed a few people. Good thing our government which through its actions kills thousands of people a year stopped it. Now I am much safer". :lol:


I think you started the insults to us all when you made this statement above.


Your Ideology or simplistic rationale is to excuse the loss of perhaps thousands of Canadian lives by terrorists, because it doesn't compare to our government which through its actions kills thousands of people a year.

How does our government kill thousands per year and why is this worse than being blown up by terrorists ?

you confuse looking at the real probabilities of perceieved threats vs excuses.

the ways in which government actions increase the likelihood of disease and death is worse in that it is a calculated risk to the "individual" vs the gain to "governmental interests". It is a violation of the trust people place in their government. If you think it is an insult to identify that the government does not act in your best interests then you are just being naive.

I am not excusing death by terrorism but being realistic. How many people have died in canada from terrorism? What is the real risk that you or I will get killed or injured by a terrorist act? You have greater risk from the negative effects of the pesticides sprayed on lawns. Look at the real risk, not the sensationalism of what a bomb going off looks like.

Do not confuse not mourning the dead with not having compassion for life. There is not enough time in one's life to mourn all the deaths that occur every day of humans, of animals.
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
30
48
Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

No sweat Karlin :D

And something caracal kid posted struck me as delicious black humour- the threat to humanity(and human life in general I guess, sorry for not stating it very well) from millions of tons of fertilizer LEGALLY APPLIED TO FIELDS EVERY YEAR is pretty much a non-starter, but 3 tons of phoney white powder in the hands of a bunch of seemingly incompetent fellows is enough to change EVERYTHING, overnight, and forces us to make some tough decisions???

I don't get the hooplah, and I certainly don't understand how it is wrong to react with some good questions- just because I am not screaming for muslim blood or the pre-emptive attack on some nation of darker-skinned people doesn't mean I am a GD "terrorist" or a "denier" OR a "sympathizer", it means that I am quite suspicious at the timing and the astounding lack of objectivity in the reporting of this...

Hell, the initial story made it sound like there was a bomb ON a truck with a map of all of Ontario and a bunch of battle-hardened, fight-to-the-death troops who "hate our freedoms" ready to strike at any time (tho likely "imminently") but as more facts came out it turns out that the reporting was, to use a euphemism, disingenuous at least :D
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
Good post mabudon

On one hand the "terrorists" thought they were buying the real stuff. On the other hand, It would have been very hard to explain if they had been allowed to buy the real Ammonium Nitrate and somehow put a bomb together and blew up a building in downtown Toronto.

It does get a bit fuzzy around the edges when we know that what they had was harmless, but the intent was there, and they thought they were buying explosives. Is the crime the intent, or the successful execution of that crime?
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
30
48
Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

man some folks just don't get it.. but first to address #juan's question since it was asked honestly and not in some pointless "shut you down" way, then I can try to talk some sense to ITN's post

#juan- sure, it is a kin of grey area- it really comes down to whatever the charges are- in the case of a simple charge of "conspiracy to commit 'terror'" well, you have mens rea and actus reus, so that charge can and in my view should stick, if that's the route being taken- I am in no ways suggesting that folks who actually plan and attempt to do things like these people supposedly were should be tolerated until they succeed, and am glad that CSIS seems to be functioning as well as we could hope, they should be prosecuted for their attempts, since in their own views they had both a plan and the means to do it, it's pretty simple really and I am supportive of such prosecution of these and any future individuals who are planning any sort of spectacular violence...

ITN- I really don't know what you mean since you just keep repeating it like a mantra, but I will do my best...

Who has gained what from this whole deal?? Well, by breaking this story in the manner in which it was done, and the constant "WE ARE NO LONGER SAFE" headlines and the "mushroom cloud" style fearmongering which went along with it, a whole LOT of ignorant folks in this country (usually a pretty vocal group, too BTW, and since they're shouting the imperialist crap they are quite popular with the warmongers and fearmongers) now believe that our country is one of the "frontlines" in the "war on terror" and that we may need to not only KEPP the hastily slapped-together "terror laws" and heck, may even strengthen them....

So in answer to who has gained what, well, all the war cheerleaders got their soundbite toi copy and paste all over places like this (an example would be a few of the proud "winners" on this site trying to tell all of us who ask questions that we were wrong and stupid and should be ashamed since it was a FACT that Canada was about to be destroyed, which is now obviously pure fallacy) and Harper got his justification for maintaining the "terror laws" and in a lot of idiots minds no doubt the "global war lovers" were made to look "correct" despite the fact that it was pretty much all hype and innuendo and a few outright lies- there truly was no danger, but I have already heard a LOt of stupid people say that we "avoided terror by a hairs breadth" when our agencies had the whole thing taken care of for quite some time and there really never was a threat from this group.. don't matter tho, cos the mushroom cloud pics etc speak WAY louder than facts buried in some long detailled article in the classifieds

OH and muslim haters who like to think that all Muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists got their "YEE HAW lets go show 'em they aren't welcome in our country" moment, a beautiful "justification" to go and smash some building- at least the vandals hit a mosque this time, as in the aftermath of 9-11 I remembe rat least one instance of a Hindu worship centre being burned to the ground, and sad as that was I had to laugh (no one was injured BTW) at how friggin stupid anyone could be to go out and blow something up cos people who sorta look like other minority groups (tho not too much really) happen to gather there, so I guess as long as the racists know who they are being racist against and practice some diligence, it is better, otherwise anyone that ain't lily white could find themselves dead without so much as an actual reason
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
So mabudon you are saying that despite the investigation trascended two governments, the intent all along has been to keep Canadians "under control", correct?
 

Swifty

New Member
May 19, 2006
37
0
6
Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZER - Toronto 17

How does our government kill thousands per year and why is this worse than being blown up by terrorists ?



"Look at the real risk, not the sensationalism of what a bomb going off looks like."
What is the real risk ?
(Pesticides,Global warming,Christianity,World domination by the right wing Capitalists).


"If you think it is an insult to identify that the government does not act in your best interests then you are just being naive."

Of course the Government doesn't always act in our best interests.It's not a perfect world,human beings are fallible including yourself.
Should we trivialize every tragedy because there are millions dying of aids every year and that is far worse.

"you confuse looking at the real probabilities of perceieved threats vs excuses."
What excuses ?






[/quote]Timeline: Probe into alleged terror plot began in 2004
CTV.ca News Staff

The investigation that culminated in the arrest of 17 terrorism suspects had its start in 2004, authorities say, when tech-savvy spies noticed a group of youth espousing anti-Western rhetoric in an online chat room.

Fall 2004: Canadian Security Intelligence Service agents noticed some teens reading and posting to radical Islamist websites, espousing anti-Western views, sources revealed to the Toronto Star.

November 2004: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police was brought into the case by CSSIS agents who believed they had enough information to launch a criminal investigation.

Three tonnes of what was believed to be ammonium nitrate, but was in fact a harmless substances, was purchased from undercover officers.

March 2005: Two Americans who popped onto the radar of authorities after communicating by email with the Canadian group hopped onto a bus for two round-trip tickets to Toronto.

According to U.S. court documents, they were to meet with "like-minded Islamists."

"According to Ahmed ... they met regularly with at least three subjects of an FBI international terrorism investigation," the court documents allege, and discussed "strategic locations in the United States suitable for a terrorist strike."

August 2005: Canadian investigators were watching closely as a car tried to cross back into Canada across the Peace Bridge in Fort Erie.

The Star says the car was allegedly rented by Fahim Ahmad, 21 -- who is one of the suspects facing terrorism charges.

When the car was stopped at the border, another two suspects -- Yasin Abdi Mohamed, 24, and Ali Dirie, 22 -- were found inside.

Mohamed was carrying a loaded handgun while Dirie had two pistols found on his body.

Both of the men, who are landed immigrants, told the court they had the guns for their own protection.

They pleaded guilty and both are now serving two-year sentences.

Winter 2005/2006: Police allege some of the younger members allegedly went north to what is being described as a "training camp."

February 2006: Intelligence analysts called a briefing for chiefs of Ontario's police forces to bring them into the loop of what they believed was a high-level terrorist threat

June 2, 2006: SWAT teams raided several residential homes in Toronto and nearby Mississauga and arrested 12 men and five youths on terrorism charges.

[/quote]




Should CSIS not have done nothing and just let these 17 go on with there happy little lives ?
 

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
1,275
2
38
I am not excusing death by terrorism but being realistic. How many people have died in canada from terrorism? What is the real risk that you or I will get killed or injured by a terrorist act? You have greater risk from the negative effects of the pesticides sprayed on lawns. Look at the real risk, not the sensationalism of what a bomb going off looks like.

the threat to humanity human life in general from millions of tons of fertilizer LEGALLY APPLIED TO FIELDS EVERY YEAR

Great objectivity! And wrap it up in a blanket of corporate greed and conspiracy with government to allow these poisens harm us year in and year out for decades, and VIOLA!! - there is it, the proof that the government and our 'good corporate citizens' [such as corporations try to pretend they are], are not doing things "for the benefit of all concerned", and not even "to the benefit of the greatest numbers as possible", but allways TO THE BENEFIT OF A SMALL GROUP OF ELITE WEALTHY PEOPLE. {i.e. "they"}.

We know who "they" are, they could even be your family members who succeeded in the corporate world, formerly good people who "sold out". Its real people, all "sold out" to the Bilderberg-based ideas, all working on the "Plan for a New American Century".

Powerfull, dangerous, scary.

Scarier than terrorists, once you understand the situation.

They spray us with pesticides, they stopped production of the safest vehicles, they thwart production of the electric car that would have saved us a lot of global warming and other pollution [movie about to come out], and they don't hesitate to offer us pharmacy drugs that they know could kill us [and did, over 100,000 now fm Vioxx alone] , and the list goes on and on with examples where we, the citizens, would have done better without their help.

Its because they are only after money, and the fallout is "collateral damage". It isn't "de-population" or a pact with aliens, nothing strange at all, its just about money, energy , economy, and concentrating the wealth in those few sweaty palms of the Elites.


Once again, its not the potential bombings, or occaisional real bombings, in North America we are in danger from, its the elites who are so afraid of losing their position.
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
30
48
Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

ITN- in a way, yes, "perception management" and all that took us a little while longer to get the hang of up here, as did using wedge-issues to stall true democracy..

I don't think that these folks were government agents or ANYTHING like that, but the Harper government has shown great interest in incorporating the recently near-perfected US concept pioneered who knows how long ago, that of keeping the population in control (and by "control" I mean controlling what they are paying attention to more than anything else, not trying to control where people go or whatever)with fear- it sure does work, and I honestly believe that the REAL "interests" in our country would benefit very much so from having people SO afraid of the bogeyman that they stop paying attention to anything else- look at what has happened under George Bush in the US, with the "terror alerts" and all that- the priority, if one looks empirically at it, seems to have been getting the most taxpayer dollars into private hands, when you strip away all the emotional crap that is exactly what has happened and the facts about this are publicly known, BUT there is little outcry because the issue is not presented truthfully to the largely ignorant public- you can try to say this is not true and raise the spectre of the mushroom clouds or whatever, but without all the windowdressing, George Bush has more or less bankrupted the US under flase pretenses- OH and just in case anyone DOES manage to put 2+2 together, there are other ways of dealing with them- marginalizing them, arresting them without detention, you know, the kind of thing that gets done around here whenever ANYONE questions the "official view" (and I have yet to see any question of the official view get treated with anything more than derision, at BEST)

So that's it in a nutshell, our country is being swiftboated just like yours was, and there are some folks here who kinda have a problem with that
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Re: RE: There was NO FERTILIZ

mabudon said:
So that's it in a nutshell, our country is being swiftboated just like yours was, and there are some folks here who kinda have a problem with that

Actually, swiftboating would be to have let the bombing take place, why all the fanfare and secrecy and clumsiness and not let it take place. Boom, overnight you're subdued, like us dumb Amerikans.

Sounds like a much more reasonable tactic of control, doesn't it?
 

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
1,275
2
38
OH YA, well said. But you and I are not much of a force for change by ourselves.

The way you laid it out, it seems that most people could get a grasp of it, and understand that "The War on Terror" isn't what it seems, that we - Canada for one - should not be particpating in it.

Controlling "what grabs the attention of people" is the issue, as you said. The truth is not only too bland and too difficult, it is overwhlemed by the mass media's ability to control "what grabs people's attention".

It is a grand plan, its coming together, and all it would take to unravel it is something to grab people's attention long enough to see the truth. Is there going to be an opportunity to do that somehow?
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
There is one small thing

All of the 12 men and five juveniles nabbed in raids late Friday and early Saturday remained in jail, isolated from one another and awaiting bail hearings on Tuesday.

Some 400 police officers were involved in the arrests, the Globe and Mail reported.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service began monitoring the group in 2004 based on exchanges being made in Internet chat rooms, the Toronto Star reported.

When the group ordered three tons of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police participated in the delivery of it and the raids began hours later.

Everything I can read tells me that ordering more than a few pounds of ammonium nitrate will raise red flags all over the place. The "terrorists" must have known this. We no longer make the stuff in Canada so it would have to be imported. All of a sudden, they get three tons of it delivered. The RCMP "participated" the delivery. Did they also "participate" in the amount? I worry a bit when the police are so involved. A few years ago I think Mindy Chan's murderer got off because the police got too close to the case and ruined the evidence.
 

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
1,275
2
38
Thats an interesting slant on the issue juan, that the RCMP might have influenced the amount of fertilizer ordered. The more fert, the more fear.

{Note - the 'delivery' was not real fertilzer }

If these arrests were something arranged to garner support for occupation of Afghanistan by Canadian troops, it would be quite easy for undercover cops to help unsuspecting angry Muslims to create a very convincing threat , perhaps something that was not going to happen without the RCMP's help.

Is it likely, or just possible?
 

Swifty

New Member
May 19, 2006
37
0
6
Great objectivity! And wrap it up in a blanket of corporate greed and conspiracy with government to allow these poisens harm us year in and year out for decades, and VIOLA!! - there is it, the proof that the government and our 'good corporate citizens' [such as corporations try to pretend they are], are not doing things "for the benefit of all concerned", and not even "to the benefit of the greatest numbers as possible", but allways TO THE BENEFIT OF A SMALL GROUP OF ELITE WEALTHY PEOPLE. {i.e. "they"}.

We know who "they" are, they could even be your family members who succeeded in the corporate world, formerly good people who "sold out". Its real people, all "sold out" to the Bilderberg-based ideas, all working on the "Plan for a New American Century".

Powerfull, dangerous, scary.

Scarier than terrorists, once you understand the situation.

They spray us with pesticides, they stopped production of the safest vehicles, they thwart production of the electric car that would have saved us a lot of global warming and other pollution [movie about to come out], and they don't hesitate to offer us pharmacy drugs that they know could kill us [and did, over 100,000 now fm Vioxx alone] , and the list goes on and on with examples where we, the citizens, would have done better without their help.

Its because they are only after money, and the fallout is "collateral damage". It isn't "de-population" or a pact with aliens, nothing strange at all, its just about money, energy , economy, and concentrating the wealth in those few sweaty palms of the Elites.


Once again, its not the potential bombings, or occaisional real bombings, in North America we are in danger from, its the elites who are so afraid of losing their position.[/quote]













And now the REAL Karlin is exposed. 8O



And wrap it up in a blanket of corporate greed and conspiracy with government to allow these poisens harm us year in and year out for decades, and VIOLA!!

There is some corporate greed but the majority employ thousands of Canadians and donate millions to charity.Communism doesn't work.I will take my Canada over your Ideology anytime,thank you. :canada:




Its real people, all "sold out" to the Bilderberg-based ideas, all working on the "Plan for a New American Century".

More Left Wing dribble from the NDP and proof the NDP Party is once again crawling with every small Interest group that has absolutely know interest in Canada other than to destroy it's system, and way of life.Not going to happen Karlin not on my watch sweetheart. :) :canada:




They spray us with pesticides, they stopped production of the safest vehicles, they thwart production of the electric car that would have saved us a lot of global warming and other pollution [movie about to come out], and they don't hesitate to offer us pharmacy drugs that they know could kill us [and did, over 100,000 now fm Vioxx alone] , and the list goes on and on with examples where we, the citizens, would have done better without their help.

More nonsense :)

Some pesticides are bad but most are regulated by many many well educated bureaucrats in our Government, which have proven the pesticides to be harmless.Once again Karlin the world is not a perfect place,we find problems and we try and resolve them the best way we can.(The World or Capitalism is not coming to an end lol)



"We have not thwarted the production of the electric car that would have saved us from global warming" :)

We can't completely shut done Oil/gas production since it would
create a global recession and put millions out of work.(I know you would like this but it's just not going to happen) :)
We are moving to alternative fuels just like we moved into the age of technology.There were some jobs lost but gradually many were able to adapt and the effects were minimal.

Global Warming,don't worry about it.We humans are very resiliently and Intelligent.Many many are working on this "debatable problem" and guess what, there not all Leftist. :) So don't worry you will be safe in your lifetime from Global Warming.



and they don't hesitate to offer us pharmacy drugs that they know could kill us [and did, over 100,000 now fm Vioxx alone

More Nonsense. :)

It's very difficult to predict how a drug will affect us over a long period of time.But I can tell you this, there are many persons with Aids who would be quite willing to try out the new drugs coming on the market that have not gone through a ten year trial.

Once again there are a few(Minority) groups out there that would take advantage of the profit made on drugs and lie because of greed.But this is not the norm and we are only human and can't control everyone's behavior like the Looney Left would like to.(I'ts not humanly possible to control everyone's mind set unless we venture into the Communist world). :wink:




To all you NDP supporters/Voters out there I would suggest you weed out these Extreme subversives in your party.This is why the NDP failed miserably in the last election when it was there best opportunity to gain seats. Considering the Liberals were at there lowest after the sponsorship scandal.





[/quote]
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
195
0
16
It came out today that there was not actually any fertilizer shipped to these "terrorists".

Um no it didn't "come out" today. The G&M was aware of that a while ago.


YOU became aware of it today.


.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
"you confuse looking at the real probabilities of perceieved threats vs excuses."
What excuses ?

I was refering to you saying I was making excuses or trivializing terrorism. I was not making excuses for or excusing acts of violence. I was pointing out that we should be realistic in our evavluation of risks faced and not sensationalize things.

Now why do you like to refer to communism so much? I have not seen any suggestion that communism was the solution to terrorism. Communist governments have exploited their peoples just as badly as capitalist and socialist governments have. When I said to challenge your constructs I meant to challenge your constructs, not to use your constructs in a different way.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
The way it was initially reported

At least in my perception, was that these guys were caught with three tons of ammonium nitrate and that they had targets already picked. Nobody mentioned that the stuff was fake, or that the fake fertilizer was only just delivered before the raids. It turns out that what they were "caught" with, was three tons of oregano, or something other than explosives.