The stratified heavens: the gaseous layers of the stratosphere?
- Thread starter eanassir
- Start date
The number makes no sense. anti-God? I think not - I just don't believe in your particularly narrow vision of 'God'.
Anti-Q'uran? Well as I don't believe in its bizarre interpretations of Christianity and Judaism, by your narrow standards I would guess that I am.
But at least I'm wading through the Q'ran to try and understand it - you've never picked up a Bible or a Torah or Talmud in your life.
I'm not arrogant - I just don't accept what you say just because you tell me it's the correct thing to think. God gave me a brain to think - I use it - something you seem to take issue with. as far as shouting? i don't shout, but ever word that comes out of MY mouth is my own - not the parrotings of another.
To bad you've decided not to reply to Anna any more. But then I suspect that it's more because she asks you to justify your statements and you can't - all you can do is copy and paste some aya.
Cliffy, what are all these lies?
What are all these lies, Cliffy?
Haven't you other sources, if you doubt or dislike my words?
www.mlivo.com/translations/Arberry.htm
What is it that I said which make you think so?
Which Creator you know then, if you don't believe in God of Jews, Christians and Muslims?
To what sect you belong, and what god other than God Almighty you know?
What are all these lies, Cliffy?
Haven't you other sources, if you doubt or dislike my words?
www.mlivo.com/translations/Arberry.htm
What is it that I said which make you think so?
Which Creator you know then, if you don't believe in God of Jews, Christians and Muslims?
To what sect you belong, and what god other than God Almighty you know?
I give you some clues in order to contemplate and think my words are true and that all Moon, Mercury and Venus do not spin around themselves,
but only Mercury and Venus circle around the Sun: one of their faces or hemisphere only is facing the Sun and the other is not and is in complete darkness and coldness.
Moon also does not spin but circles around its mother Earth with only one face towards the Earth, while the other is the unseen face or hemisphere.
That is because it is known very well that the movement of these objects are different from the rest of planets (Moon of course is not a planet)
Check is Mercury or Venus movement like the rest of the planets or is it different?
See the movement of Moon and ask yourself: what is this strange movement and what does it indicate ?
The mistake of Astronomers about Moon
Mercury Has Stopped Its Axial Rotation
Venus Has Stopped Its Axial Rotation
Last edited:
The ways the gaseous heavens are mentioned in the Quran
First: In singular: the word سماء : "sky: or "heaven" ; in this form it always means the gaseous layers or the gaseous heavens.
E.g. God said –be exalted –in the Quran 40: 64
First: In singular: the word سماء : "sky: or "heaven" ; in this form it always means the gaseous layers or the gaseous heavens.
E.g. God said –be exalted –in the Quran 40: 64
اللَّهُ الَّذِي جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الْأَرْضَ قَرَارًا وَالسَّمَاء بِنَاء
i.e. (It is God Who has made for you the earth for a dwelling- place, and the sky (or heaven) for a structure [of gaseous layers one above another.] )
Therefore, the “heaven” or “sky”, here, means the firmament or the gaseous heavens.
Last edited:
Yes they do. This has been explained to you multiple times, and little tests described that you can do at home to prove a body orbiting another one and always keeping the same face turned toward it has to be rotating on its own axis with the same periodicity as its orbit. It's a common and well understood phenomenon, completely explicable with Newtonian gravitational theory, it even has a name: tidal locking. Apparently you're prepared to deny the evidence in order to sustain your conviction that the Quran and al-Hilly's foolish "scientific"extrapolations from it are correct. Not only do you refuse to understand, I think you're incapable of understanding, you'll just continue to make assertions that are provably false and continue to live as a scientific illiterate for as long as you consider the Quran to be an accurate source of empirical data.
Second: in plural : the wordسماوات i.e. "heavens".
a- When the word سماوات i.e. "heavens" is mentioned together with the Earth, but there will be some words intervening between them.
E.g. God –be exalted – said in the Quran 31: 10
E.g. God –be exalted – said in the Quran 31: 10
خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ بِغَيْرِ عَمَدٍ تَرَوْنَهَا وَأَلْقَى فِي الْأَرْضِ رَوَاسِيَ أَن تَمِيدَ بِكُمْ...الخ
The explanation:
(He created the [gaseous] heavens without pillars you can see, and He cast on the earth firm [mountains], lest it sway irregularly with you …)
(He created the [gaseous] heavens without pillars you can see, and He cast on the earth firm [mountains], lest it sway irregularly with you …)
The “heavens”, here, means the gaseous layers, because many words intervene between the “heavens” and the “earth” viz. (without pillars you can see and He cast on).
b- When the “heavens” are mentioned after the “earth”, e.g. God -be exalted – said in the Quran 20: 4
تَنزِيلًا مِّمَّنْ خَلَقَ الْأَرْضَ وَالسَّمَاوَاتِ الْعُلَى
The explanation:
(A revelation [of the Quran] from [God] Who created the earth and the high heavens.)
(A revelation [of the Quran] from [God] Who created the earth and the high heavens.)
So, the “heavens”, here, means the gaseous layers because it is mentioned after the “earth”.
c- The “heavens” are mentioned alone without mentioning the “earth” with them.
E.g. God – be glorified – said in the Quran 67: 3-4:
E.g. God – be glorified – said in the Quran 67: 3-4:
الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا مَّا تَرَى فِي خَلْقِ الرَّحْمَنِ مِن تَفَاوُتٍ فَارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَى مِن فُطُورٍ .
ثُمَّ ارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ كَرَّتَيْنِ يَنقَلِبْ إِلَيْكَ الْبَصَرُ خَاسِأً وَهُوَ حَسِيرٌ
ثُمَّ ارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ كَرَّتَيْنِ يَنقَلِبْ إِلَيْكَ الْبَصَرُ خَاسِأً وَهُوَ حَسِيرٌ
The explanation:
( [God] Who has created seven stratified heavens ; you cannot see any non-observance in the creation of the Most Gracious!
( [God] Who has created seven stratified heavens ; you cannot see any non-observance in the creation of the Most Gracious!
Then [look at the sky and] turn your [eye-] sight again [to make sure]: Can you see any rifts [in the heavens]?
[No, of course!] Then turn your [eye-] sight twice [to the gaseous heavens!] –your [eye -] sight shall return to you disappointed even though it be open-eyed.)
Therefore, the “stratified heavens” (seven in number) means the gaseous layers.
Last edited:
The Quran is the word of God, and you are not any believer in God and His revelations.
May God's mercy be on the righteous soul of Al-Hilly.
Al-Hilly is not the foolish; the tall man is the foolish (this is a parable)
Al-Hilly said things with his non-traditional mind.
And you don't want to consider, and did not answer the question: why should such objects: Moon, Mercury and Venus be tidally locked, apart from the rest of the planets?
I said as you don't want to consider this and you stick to the available explanations: ok then say these objects circle around the Sun with one face facing it, and Moon with one face facing the Earth. What's the problem? Say they according to you they are tidally locked and we say they don't spin; so take your reward from Mercury or Venus while Moon is nearer than the others.
Moreover, you are not scientific in your approach of such subject: I tell you how this is:
May God's mercy be on the righteous soul of Al-Hilly.
Al-Hilly is not the foolish; the tall man is the foolish (this is a parable)
Al-Hilly said things with his non-traditional mind.
And you don't want to consider, and did not answer the question: why should such objects: Moon, Mercury and Venus be tidally locked, apart from the rest of the planets?
I said as you don't want to consider this and you stick to the available explanations: ok then say these objects circle around the Sun with one face facing it, and Moon with one face facing the Earth. What's the problem? Say they according to you they are tidally locked and we say they don't spin; so take your reward from Mercury or Venus while Moon is nearer than the others.
Moreover, you are not scientific in your approach of such subject: I tell you how this is:
You said Moon is locked to the earth; and I ask you: was it locked to it from the start of its creation?
The same concerning Mercury and Venus: were they tidally-locked from the start?
The same concerning Mercury and Venus: were they tidally-locked from the start?
No, the process takes time. Read something other than the Quran and interpretations of it, like the material at that link I gave you. It's only Wikipedia, not the best quality reference material, but it's a start, and it's better than your reference material.
You state nothing but opinion. And quite frequently these opinions conflict with the facts that science has uncovered. You can not prove anything of what you post. I really doubt if you know of what proof and facts consist.
As I said before, you seem to be just a propagandising robot. And not a very sophisticated one at that.
Simply posting what is in the Quran does not make it true. Nor does your assertion of its correctness make it true. Nothing of which you post is verifiable. That fact makes what you post simply conjecture and most of it is erroneous conjecture. It's a shame that even this simple fact escapes your comprehension. How you ever became an MD is waaaaaay past my imagination skills.
This is not enough as an answer.
I tell you this: Moon was spinning at the start, and that's why it became spherical in shape; that is because it was hot at the start, then - being smaller than the Earth - it lost its heat quicker than his mother Earth. So it started to circle around the Earth with one face only facing it.
The same is true concerning Mercury and Venus the thing that you insist to deny.
Mercury - being smaller than Venus - stopped its spinning before it.
So, is the Earth also going to be tidally locked by time, as you suggest?
The stratified gaseous heavens:
I think from studying the book The Universe and the Quran,by Mohammed-Ali Al-Hilly that most probably the stratified gaseous heavens are the Stratosphere:
"The origin of the gaseous heavens is from the Earth:
When the Earth was a flaming sun; and the emerging gases were in the form of smoke that was a mixture of seven gases.
When the Earth was a flaming sun; and the emerging gases were in the form of smoke that was a mixture of seven gases.
And because some gases are heavy, while some others are light; they started to separate from each other; because the heavy gas came down while the light gas went up, till they became seven layers:
the first layer is the ozone gas [layer] about 25 miles away from us, the other layers came under it like the layers of the sulphur dioxide (SO2), the hydrogen, the helium and the rest of the gases.
This is roughly speaking, for we cannot know those gases exactly because we are on the Earth and the gases are high up in the sky."
God –be exalted – said in the Quran 2: 29
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
The explanation:
(It is He That has created for you all*that is in the earth. Then aimed at [building** ] the sky [of the earth], and fashioned them as seven heavens, and He is the Omniscient about everything.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*the plant, animal, river …etc.
**i.e. to separate the layers of the gaseous heaven, and to build it.]
(It is He That has created for you all*that is in the earth. Then aimed at [building** ] the sky [of the earth], and fashioned them as seven heavens, and He is the Omniscient about everything.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*the plant, animal, river …etc.
**i.e. to separate the layers of the gaseous heaven, and to build it.]
It means: He fashioned seven gaseous layers after being one layer of smoke.
Indications that most probably the gaseous heavens are the Stratosphere:
1- It is a stable layer: no wind there to mix its gases; therefore they separated into seven layers of seven gases.
2- The layer above it is the mesosphere which is full of meteors.
2- The layer above it is the mesosphere which is full of meteors.
As it is understood from the aya 72: 8
وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا السَّمَاء فَوَجَدْنَاهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَسًا شَدِيدًا وَشُهُبًا ..الخ
The explanation:
('And [we, genies, had ascended up in the space until] we had touched the [ethereal or spiritual] heaven [with our hands] but had found it filled with stern guards [: angels] and meteors [under that heaven.]'
('And [we, genies, had ascended up in the space until] we had touched the [ethereal or spiritual] heaven [with our hands] but had found it filled with stern guards [: angels] and meteors [under that heaven.]'
'We used [before the mission of Prophet Mohammed] to sit in some places [near] to the [ethereal heaven] to listen [to the words of angels]; but anyone that listens now will find a meteor in wait [to pursue] him.')
----------------------------------------------------------- Therefore, the meteors are below the ethereal heaven which is (the habitation of angels), while the stratified gaseous heavens (the habitation of genies) are below the layer of meteors (the mesosphere.)
It means genies inhabit the Stratosphere, while angels inhabit the ethereal heavens above the mesosphere layer.
This is what I think from studying the ayat of the Quran and the interpretation ; and God is the All-Knowing.
Last edited:
eanassir, go and have a vacation in Stratosphere, Las Vegas. Don't gamble if it against your "religion".
Enjoy the best meals in your life. Also the funniest shows. Some of the best pop music.
In other words, try to live a little.
But keep in mind that you could do even better at the Bellagio!.
Enjoy the best meals in your life. Also the funniest shows. Some of the best pop music.
In other words, try to live a little.
But keep in mind that you could do even better at the Bellagio!.
Too bad, it's all you're going to get from me on this. The information's all freely available, you can do your own research. It's been explained to you multiple times in considerable detail, you've been given links to explanations of it, yet you persist in a provably wrong belief about it, you're not even right about Venus and Mercury being fully tidally locked, they're not, and every time you add to it you make another error, like the moon being spherical because it was hot and spinning at first.
You don't really deserve any further explanations of anything, you're impenetrably wrong-headed about this. However... The moon isn't spherical because it was spinning or hot at the beginning, all bodies larger than a certain size will be spherical because gravity overcomes the rigidity of the materials they're made from, it's the minimum energy state. Smaller bodies like asteroids, and Mars' moons, are not spherical simply because they're not big enough.
I'd like to clear up the water above the firmament bible BS. Does land sit above the ol' salt chuck? Yes! Do lakes and river sit and flow atop the land and ol' salt chuck? YES! That's how you get water above the ground aka firmament. Simple huh?
I say these same words to you and you are more worthy of such words; so read them directed to yourself.
This is not any error; it was certainly hotter and it was spinning at the start.
It is you that are impenetrably wrong-headed about this; why don't you consider? Aren't you among the proud over God and His revelations?
How do you know and insist on this?
This is their explanation, which is not correct; why isn't the earth surface smooth and the mountains and valleys disappear?
How do you assert this so simply; when there are other explanations ?
Your scientific attitude is not scientific in fact, as did I tell you before; you don't want to study or consider any subject and new information.
To me I followed the man who did not study at any school and did not hesitate to consider his explanations; as one of my late professors said: "It doesn't matter that a man did not graduate; he may be correct; give me his book that I may sutdy it."
Al-Hilly said to me once: "I don't mind to listen to the word of a child even; it may be God put the truth in his tongue."
Therefore, it is not any science to refuse considering any subject in this way and to boast with any little bit of science that any scientist may have.
There are many observations in the universe, so many scientists try to find some explanations to such observations; and it is not necessarily that their explanation is the true one.
The explanation of the sphericity of Moon:
Moon was part of Earth and it detached from it; that happened when both Earth and Moon were very hot and not very rigid; so when both Earth and Moon went on spinning they about acquired the spherical shape. But then Moon, much lesser than Earth, lost its heat before Earth; and so Moon stopped its spinning, while Earth kept on spinning around itself.
Moons and their formation