The Jews of Iran are Far Better Off Than Palestinians of Gaza

[earth_as_one]

I know that the Pelestinians have a lot to blame Israel for, but why is it that organizations like Hamas do everything they can to disrupt negotiations that might lead to a better life for both Jews and Palestinians?

The situation in Palestine-Israel has become a continual cycle of reprisals; all of them leading to continued hostility and injustice so far as relations between the two peoples are concerned. But whenever any attempt is made to break the cycle fanatics on one side or the other do their level best to disrupt proceedings.

So far as Iran is concerned its treatment of minorities does not entirely surprise me. The Iranians are not the fanatical terrorists that much of the media would have us believe.

Hamas should be leading the Palestinian delegation, not Fatah. Hamas won the last elections. Fatah is corrupt and their leaders represent their own interests. The US and Israel want to negotiate with Fatah, because they know this group will sell out their fellow Palestinians.

Most religious states tend to discriminate on the basis of religion. In general Iran treats its religious minorities poorly. Iranian Jews and Zoroastrians are an exception in that they are treated relatively better. Other religious minorities in Iran are treated about as badly as Israel treats religious minorities with Israeli citizenship, but not as badly as Israeli treats Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories.

 

[ironsides]

Hamas should be leading the Palestinian delegation, not Fatah. Hamas won the last elections. Fatah is corrupt and their leaders represent their own interests. The US and Israel want to negotiate with Fatah, because they know this group will sell out their fellow Palestinians.

Most religious states tend to discriminate on the basis of religion. In general Iran treats its religious minorities poorly. Iranian Jews and Zoroastrians are an exception in that they are treated relatively better. Other religious minorities in Iran are treated about as badly as Israel treats religious minorities with Israeli citizenship, but not as badly as Israeli treats Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories.

Now here we agree, there will be no peace until Hamas decides it want to get involved in anything other than getting its youth killed. Fatah does not want to sell out anyone, they are just tired of the war. See again you end your msg. on a downer. Israel cannot afford to loosen their grip, because every time they do Israeli citizens die.

 

[Goober]

Hamas should be leading the Palestinian delegation, not Fatah. Hamas won the last elections. Fatah is corrupt and their leaders represent their own interests. The US and Israel want to negotiate with Fatah, because they know this group will sell out their fellow Palestinians.

Most religious states tend to discriminate on the basis of religion. In general Iran treats its religious minorities poorly. Iranian Jews and Zoroastrians are an exception in that they are treated relatively better. Other religious minorities in Iran are treated about as badly as Israel treats religious minorities with Israeli citizenship, but not as badly as Israeli treats Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories.

Hamas to negotiate with Israel - You are still of the rails - Clearly you still do not realize how Hamas negotiates with a Jew.

Hamas Kills them - Negotiation over.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:023:0037:0042:EN:PDF

 

[CUBert]

Hamas already tried negotiating with Israel, Israel refused.


On January 25, 2004, senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in return for the establishment of a Palestinian state and the complete withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the Six Day War of 1967.[48] Al-Rantissi stated that Hamas had come to the conclusion that it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage, so we accept a phased liberation."[48][49] Israel immediately dismissed al-Rantissi's statements as insincere and a smokescreen for military preparations.[50]

Hamas to negotiate with Israel - You are still of the rails - Clearly you still do not realize how Hamas negotiates with a Jew.

Hamas Kills them - Negotiation over.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:023:0037:0042:EN:PDF

You don't sound like you know too much about Hamas

 

[Goober]

Hamas already tried negotiating with Israel, Israel refused.


On January 25, 2004, senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in return for the establishment of a Palestinian state and the complete withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the Six Day War of 1967.[48] Al-Rantissi stated that Hamas had come to the conclusion that it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage, so we accept a phased liberation."[48][49] Israel immediately dismissed al-Rantissi's statements as insincere and a smokescreen for military preparations.[50]



You don't sound like you know too much about Hamas

A truce - Comparable to Hitler saying I will not kill you until next year - Would you try to negotiate with Hamas when they have as their belief the total destruction of Israel - You cannot negotiate with people like that -

Perhaps you can tell me what " Phased Liberation of Palestine" means to you.

 

[CUBert]

You don't seem to understand Hamas doesn't have the capability of destroying Israel.

However, in July 2009, Khaled Meshal, Hamas's Damascus-based political bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with "a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders," provided that Palestinian refugees be given the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be recognized as the new state's capital.[23][24] Hamas has in the past described its conflict with Israel as political and not religious

Hamas isn't so much looking for Israel's destruction as it's looking for freedom of Palestinians.

 

[Goober]

You don't seem to understand Hamas doesn't have the capability of destroying Israel.

However, in July 2009, Khaled Meshal, Hamas's Damascus-based political bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with "a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders," provided that Palestinian refugees be given the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be recognized as the new state's capital.[23][24] Hamas has in the past described its conflict with Israel as political and not religious

Hamas isn't so much looking for Israel's destruction as it's looking for freedom of Palestinians.

Right of Return is a N Go - They know that, I know that - Do you know that-

What is the sense of an offer that will not fly?

 

[earth_as_one]

A truce - Comparable to Hitler saying I will not kill you until next year - Would you try to negotiate with Hamas when they have as their belief the total destruction of Israel - You cannot negotiate with people like that -

Perhaps you can tell me what " Phased Liberation of Palestine" means to you.

Hamas is far more complex and diverse than most westerners realize. Here is what a moderate Hamas leader had to say:

The nail in the wood: an interview with Ismail Abu Shanab | openDemocracy

Paul Hilder: You’ve said in the past that for this generation, it is time to start building a state along the 1967 borders, beside Israel. This has been considered quite radical within Hamas. Is this still your belief?

Ismail Abu Shanab: We cannot speak for the next generation, but for our own. That is what we know. We do not know what the goals of the next generation will be. We have suffered from Israeli occupation and from Israeli attacks for more than half a century. Since 1948, we Palestinians were kicked off our land and left in refugee camps. We now have 4.5 million Palestinian refugees. The Israelis continued in 1967, occupying the rest of the Palestinian land with all the pain and suffering involved in that.

But today’s generation, with all of these sufferings, wants to build and keep the Palestinian identity. This identity can be symbolised by this Palestinian state. This generation will be busy building this state, and making a better living for our children.

What the next generation will think, nobody speaks about. It is hard, anyway, to speak about the next generation’s thoughts while we are not achieving our own generation’s goals.

We aren't talking about Hitler or next year. Abu Shanab was not part of Hamas's military wing. He was a politician, not involved in any Hamas military operations and considered a pragmatic moderate. Israel assassinated Shanab soon after he convinced all the main Palestinian militant groups to agree to a ceasefire as part of the road map to peace.
Pragmatist whose two-state solution cut no ice with Israel | World news | The Guardian


Assassinating your adversary's peace negotiators won't lead to peace.

 

[ironsides]

Hamas already tried negotiating with Israel, Israel refused.


On January 25, 2004, senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in return for the establishment of a Palestinian state and the complete withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the Six Day War of 1967.[48] Al-Rantissi stated that Hamas had come to the conclusion that it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage, so we accept a phased liberation."[48][49] Israel immediately dismissed al-Rantissi's statements as insincere and a smokescreen for military preparations.[50]



You don't sound like you know too much about Hamas

A ten year truce is not peace, look at North and South Korea. If given 10 years, a Hamas run Gaza would only become a stronger country that Israel would lose more citizens if war broke out between them. Hamas does not want to negotiate with Israel, they want to destroy Israel. Have you read the Hamas Charter?

 

[Goober]

Hamas is far more complex and diverse than most westerners realize. Here is what a moderate Hamas leader had to say:

The nail in the wood: an interview with Ismail Abu Shanab | openDemocracy

We aren't talking about Hitler or next year. Abu Shanab was not part of Hamas's military wing. He was a politician, not involved in any Hamas military operations and considered a pragmatic moderate. Israel assassinated Shanab soon after he convinced all the main Palestinian militant groups to agree to a ceasefire as part of the road map to peace.
Pragmatist whose two-state solution cut no ice with Israel | World news | The Guardian


Assassinating your adversary's peace negotiators won't lead to peace.

I realize full well that the Hamas Leadership that are the ones closest to getting killed by attacks from Israel, being on the ground are more open to negotiation - But the whole Org has to be online - that or a split from the radical leadership in Damascus/Tehran is required.

 

[ironsides]

Now we know for sure Iran is not nice.


HAVANA – Fidel Castro criticized Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for what he called his anti-Semitic attitudes and questioned his own actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 during interviews with an American journalist he summoned to Havana to discuss fears of global nuclear war.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100907/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_cuba_fidel_castro

 

[Colpy]

You don't seem to understand Hamas doesn't have the capability of destroying Israel.

However, in July 2009, Khaled Meshal, Hamas's Damascus-based political bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with "a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders," provided that Palestinian refugees be given the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be recognized as the new state's capital.[23][24] Hamas has in the past described its conflict with Israel as political and not religious

Hamas isn't so much looking for Israel's destruction as it's looking for freedom of Palestinians.

The highlighted condition means the destruction of the State of Israel.

How stupid would the Israelis have to be???

 

[earth_as_one]

Good riddance to the Zionist State of Israel, the main antagonist, the source of oppression and injustice which is the root cause of violence in the Holy-lands.

Hello secular democratic Israel where everyone has the same rights and freedoms regardless of race or religion. Your birth would be a huge step toward freedom and justice and deflate support for radical Islam throughout the region.

 

[Colpy]

Good riddance to the Zionist State of Israel, the main antagonist, the source of oppression and injustice which is the root cause of violence in the Holy-lands.

Hello secular democratic Israel where everyone has the same rights and freedoms regardless of race or religion. Your birth would be a huge step toward freedom and justice and deflate support for radical Islam throughout the region.

Yep, and just as soon as the Islamists were done killing off all the Jews....peace would reign...

Oh, just a minute! There is the small matter of those pesky Christians! (First Saturday, then Sunday)

Oh, and then there is the Shia....or the Sunni....depending......and you know, the Great Satan....

Get real!

Israel is among the MOST JUST nations in the Holy Land.........better there than Lebanon, Egypt, Syria.........

 

[Just the Facts]

Hamas should be leading the Palestinian delegation, not Fatah. Hamas won the last elections. Fatah is corrupt and their leaders represent their own interests. The US and Israel want to negotiate with Fatah, because they know this group will sell out their fellow Palestinians.

I don't think that's technically correct. Hamas won the parliamentary elections, not the presidential election. Foreign Affairs is the responsibility of the President's office. I'm just going by memory here so by all means correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[earth_as_one]

...Israel is among the MOST JUST nations in the Holy Land.........better there than Lebanon, Egypt, Syria.........

These other middle east countries have serious human rights problems. But they pale in comparison to the human rights situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories:

Amnesty International 2010 Annual Report

Israel and the Occupied Territories
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=129

Egypt:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=77

Lebanon
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=152

Syria
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=260

IMO, none of these nations could be described as "just".

Yep, and just as soon as the Islamists were done killing off all the Jews....peace would reign...

Oh, just a minute! There is the small matter of those pesky Christians! (First Saturday, then Sunday)

Oh, and then there is the Shia....or the Sunni....depending......and you know, the Great Satan....

Get real!

I would agree that the transition period would be difficult, but I believe it could be managed in such a way that people (Jews, Muslims, Christians...) who are willing to live in peace would prevail. I believe they are a majority on both sides and that extremists are a minority.

The Zionist assumption of religious entitlement is an extreme viewpoint which leads to violence. It divides people into two categories... God's chosen people who are entitled and everyone else who is not entitled. God's chosen people claim to have a God given right to redeem the land. When this is done through violence, without any thought to justice or fairness, redeeming the land becomes synonymous with ethnic cleansing (crime against humanity). Predictably people who suffer oppression and injustice will fight for freedom and justice. Repeat cycle of violence endlessly and here we are.

Seems pretty clear to me that the current situation of ethnic cleansing, Jewish only colonization, violent oppression and injustice will never lead to peace.

Time for a new approach, which is based on freedom and justice for everyone, equally and abandoning the Zionist assumption of religious entitlement.

I don't think that's technically correct. Hamas won the parliamentary elections, not the presidential election. Foreign Affairs is the responsibility of the President's office. I'm just going by memory here so by all means correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that's true, but the President's mandate timed out years ago. Hamas's mandate has either just expired or is about to expire.

When Fatah refused to hand over control of domestic policy and budget to Hamas, began imprisoning Hamas leaders for being Hamas, and started taking orders from the US and Israel in exchange for arms, they lost legitimacy in the eyes of a majority of Palestinians. That's when the civil war broke out, and Abbas actions completely discredited him in the eyes of most Palestinans and to many Palestinians, Abbas is considered an enemy collaborator.
CBC News - World - Gaza protesters denounce Abbas as 'collaborator'

I have no doubt that Abbas will sign a deal. Most likely he will agree to sell out Palestinians in exchange for personal power and wealth.

That's why the US and Israel have to deal with Hamas. Either that or Palestinians have to go back to the polls and give someone a mandate to represent them in peace negotiations. The US and Israel will have to cut a deal with who ever wins free and fair elections.

BTW, I don't support Hamas either. The majority of Palestinians do, and for legitimacy purposes, that's what matters.

 

[Goober]

These other middle east countries have serious human rights problems. But they pale in comparison to the human rights situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories:

Amnesty International 2010 Annual Report

Israel and the Occupied Territories
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=129

Egypt:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=77

Lebanon
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=152

Syria
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=260

IMO, none of these nations could be described as "just".



I would agree that the transition period would be difficult, but I believe it could be managed in such a way that people (Jews, Muslims, Christians...) who are willing to live in peace would prevail. I believe they are a majority on both sides and that extremists are a minority.

The Zionist assumption of religious entitlement is an extreme viewpoint which leads to violence. It divides people into two categories... God's chosen people who are entitled and everyone else who is not entitled. God's chosen people claim to have a God given right to redeem the land. When this is done through violence, without any thought to justice or fairness, redeeming the land becomes synonymous with ethnic cleansing (crime against humanity). Predictably people who suffer oppression and injustice will fight for freedom and justice. Repeat cycle of violence endlessly and here we are.

Seems pretty clear to me that the current situation of ethnic cleansing, Jewish only colonization, violent oppression and injustice will never lead to peace.

Time for a new approach, which is based on freedom and justice for everyone, equally and abandoning the Zionist assumption of religious entitlement.



I believe that's true, but the President's mandate timed out years ago. Hamas's mandate has either just expired or is about to expire.

When Fatah refused to hand over control of domestic policy and budget to Hamas, began imprisoning Hamas leaders for being Hamas, and started taking orders from the US and Israel in exchange for arms, they lost legitimacy in the eyes of a majority of Palestinians. That's when the civil war broke out, and Abbas actions completely discredited him in the eyes of most Palestinans and to many Palestinians, Abbas is considered an enemy collaborator.
CBC News - World - Gaza protesters denounce Abbas as 'collaborator'

I have no doubt that Abbas will sign a deal. Most likely he will agree to sell out Palestinians in exchange for personal power and wealth.

That's why the US and Israel have to deal with Hamas. Either that or Palestinians have to go back to the polls and give someone a mandate to represent them in peace negotiations. The US and Israel will have to cut a deal with who ever wins free and fair elections.

BTW, I don't support Hamas either. The majority of Palestinians do, and for legitimacy purposes, that's what matters.

Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy

...Israel is among the MOST JUST nations in the Holy Land.........better there than Lebanon, Egypt, Syria.........
​

These other middle east countries have serious human rights problems. But they pale in comparison to the human rights situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories:


EAO

So you support the Palestinian Right of Return - Do you know what the consequences would be - And no one in the right mind would accept that as a condition for Peace

Hamas & Hezbollah do everything possible to stall - stop any peace talks - isreal is also at fault along with Fatah.

Today a report was released that up to 20,000 Honor Killings ocur annually - The vast majority of them in Muslim Countires - next Look at Pakistan where Shiites are targeted for mas killing.

Muslim kill Muslims to a great number - Why is that - Why do they do that?

More women are killed in Honor killings each and every year than al the deaths since the Declararation of the Stae of Isreal -

You Ignore Iran - Wonder why -
You ignore Saudi - Wonder Why
You ignore Pakistan - Wonder why

Guess the Stats are being cherry picked

 

[earth_as_one]

Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy

...Israel is among the MOST JUST nations in the Holy Land.........better there than Lebanon, Egypt, Syria.........
​

These other middle east countries have serious human rights problems. But they pale in comparison to the human rights situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories:


EAO

So you support the Palestinian Right of Return - Do you know what the consequences would be - And no one in the right mind would accept that as a condition for Peace

Hamas & Hezbollah do everything possible to stall - stop any peace talks - isreal is also at fault along with Fatah.

Today a report was released that up to 20,000 Honor Killings ocur annually - The vast majority of them in Muslim Countires - next Look at Pakistan where Shiites are targeted for mas killing.

Muslim kill Muslims to a great number - Why is that - Why do they do that?

More women are killed in Honor killings each and every year than al the deaths since the Declararation of the Stae of Isreal -

You Ignore Iran - Wonder why -
You ignore Saudi - Wonder Why
You ignore Pakistan - Wonder why

Guess the Stats are being cherry picked

Right of return would mean the end of religious based entitlement in Israel and lead to a sustainable peace based on a secular democracy. Canada is an example of how it is possible that people of all different races and religions can live together in peace. Religious entitlement aka discrimination, like that practiced in Israel would be illegal here. Every single law which favors Jews over everyone else would be struck down by our court system.
BTW, Israel lacks a constitution, for this reason.

From a purely pragmatic viewpoint, Israel could use the cheap labor and Palestinian refugees could use the work. Right now Israel imports people from all over the world, because they've pissed off the locals.

Regarding the rest, I'm not willing to generalize about any group of people based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation.... IMO, attributing characteristics to an entire group based on the extreme actions of a small minority is a from of selective truth manipulation. Is this case, in support of islamaphobic stereotyping.

Stereotypes of Arabs and Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islamophobia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also I read AI's 2010 Annual report. Here are some links to human rights issues in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Iran
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=119

Saudi Arabia
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=222

Pakistan
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=197

 

[Goober]

Right of return would mean the end of religious based entitlement in Israel and lead to a sustainable peace based on a secular democracy. Canada is an example of how it is possible that people of all different races and religions can live together in peace. Religious entitlement aka discrimination, like that practiced in Israel would be illegal here. Every single law which favors Jews over everyone else would be struck down by our court system.
BTW, Israel lacks a constitution, for this reason.

From a purely pragmatic viewpoint, Israel could use the cheap labor and Palestinian refugees could use the work. Right now Israel imports people from all over the world, because they've pissed off the locals.

Regarding the rest, I'm not willing to generalize about any group of people based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation.... IMO, attributing characteristics to an entire group based on the extreme actions of a small minority is a from of selective truth manipulation. Is this case, in support of islamaphobic stereotyping.

Stereotypes of Arabs and Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islamophobia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also I read AI's 2010 Annual report. Here are some links to human rights issues in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Iran
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=119

Saudi Arabia
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=222

Pakistan
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=197

What the fuk do you smoke - as it sure has caused massive damage to your ability to figure things out.

Consider
Jews become the minority
Arabs/Muslim become the majority -

Laws change -

Control of the Military and Police change

The Judiciary changes -

And while all that is going on a freaking civil war is running neck and neck.

Someone must dress you in the morning, now don't they,

Yes this is a rude post - but you have not given any thought what so ever to the generational hatred on both sides - and in particular the Muslim fondness for Blood Feuds.

PS - Wiki is not a credible source - Nor are you for that matter -

 

[earth_as_one]

The transition period might take a generation. Just having a light at the end of the tunnel would probably reduce the violence substantially.

The Jewish master race solution hasn't led to peace in 60 years. I think its time to toss this racist system on the trash heap of history.