Cliffy, let us start a fight about dogmas. I will go first.
My dogma is better than your dogma.
The Improbability of God
- Thread starter Scott Free
- Start date
Cliffy, let us start a fight about dogmas. I will go first.
My dogma is better than your dogma.
Well, maybe but can she get you to Heaven? With my dogma, I have a reserved seat in heaven (and my dogma goes one better than the Muslim dogma, it gives me 100 virgins, not the paltry 72 that Muslims get).
Cliffy, watch how easy it is to pluck that topic right off SJP's tongue .
SJP somebody mentioned doggie-style, what does that mean in your world?
SJP somebody mentioned doggie-style, what does that mean in your world?
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Every time I go to town
the boys keep kick'n my dog around
makes no difference if he's a hound
the boys sure kick that dog around
the boys keep kick'n my dog around
makes no difference if he's a hound
the boys sure kick that dog around
Sure just like all Muslims are suicide bombing maniacs. :roll:
Generalizations are a slippery slope and those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
(Let's see your translator figure that one out lol :lol
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 14: 7 about how He threatened the Children of Israel:
وَإِذْ تَأَذَّنَ رَبُّكُمْ لَئِن شَكَرْتُمْ لأَزِيدَنَّكُمْ وَلَئِن كَفَرْتُمْ إِنَّ عَذَابِي لَشَدِيدٌ
The explanation:
(Behold! your Lord [O Jews] was requested [by your enemies but He did not permit them to fight you; and He said to you]:
"If you are thankful, surely I will increase you [in blessings];
but if you are ungrateful, My punishment is terrible indeed.)
First: So one time, when they were obedient to God and not associating other gods or idols with God Almighty, they prospered and God defended them; so that when their enemies requested God to permit them to fight the Jews, God did not permit them to fight the Jews, and this was a great blessing.
E.g. When the Children of Israel came to Sidon, the king of the Sidonians consulted God should he fight them, and God told him by the consultation: not to fight them but on the contrary to welcome them. As is mentioned in the Book of Numbers.
Second: Another time, when the Jews associated the idols with God, their enemies requested God to fight the Jews, and He permitted them: that was e.g. when Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon conquered them. And this is the meaning of:
(but if you are ungrateful, My punishment is terrible indeed.)
So this aya in the Quran explained what is in the Book of Levites, chapter 26:
(Behold! your Lord [O Jews] was requested [by your enemies but He did not permit them to fight you; and He said to you]:
"If you are thankful, surely I will increase you [in blessings];
but if you are ungrateful, My punishment is terrible indeed.)
First: So one time, when they were obedient to God and not associating other gods or idols with God Almighty, they prospered and God defended them; so that when their enemies requested God to permit them to fight the Jews, God did not permit them to fight the Jews, and this was a great blessing.
E.g. When the Children of Israel came to Sidon, the king of the Sidonians consulted God should he fight them, and God told him by the consultation: not to fight them but on the contrary to welcome them. As is mentioned in the Book of Numbers.
Second: Another time, when the Jews associated the idols with God, their enemies requested God to fight the Jews, and He permitted them: that was e.g. when Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon conquered them. And this is the meaning of:
(but if you are ungrateful, My punishment is terrible indeed.)
So this aya in the Quran explained what is in the Book of Levites, chapter 26:
quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/english2.htm#A_Call_from_God_to_the_People_of_the_Bible_
Jer:50:23:
How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken!
how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!
Eze:32:27:
And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised,
which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war:
and they have laid their swords under their heads,
but their iniquities shall be upon their bones,
though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
So the sequence seems to be, break the hammer, kill the ones who wear helmets and then follow them past death so their turn to feel terror can begin.
The sins that resulted in exile into Babylon were mostly about killing the prophets God sent to them. (idol worship and such were certainly involved but God was still sending them prophets to bring them back into correct behavior) The final straw for God was the attempted murder of Jeremiah, that is when their exile was determined. (ch:25) Jeremiah escaped death but some before him did not. God never totally released them from exile. All that was ever returned to them was the temple and the city and that had a finite time attached even before it was granted to happen.
All effects of that 1st exile are not totally vanished until Christ is standing in physical possession of the temple and the city and the land and the world. Hard to split as they are one event.
How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken!
how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!
Eze:32:27:
And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised,
which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war:
and they have laid their swords under their heads,
but their iniquities shall be upon their bones,
though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
So the sequence seems to be, break the hammer, kill the ones who wear helmets and then follow them past death so their turn to feel terror can begin.
The sins that resulted in exile into Babylon were mostly about killing the prophets God sent to them. (idol worship and such were certainly involved but God was still sending them prophets to bring them back into correct behavior) The final straw for God was the attempted murder of Jeremiah, that is when their exile was determined. (ch:25) Jeremiah escaped death but some before him did not. God never totally released them from exile. All that was ever returned to them was the temple and the city and that had a finite time attached even before it was granted to happen.
All effects of that 1st exile are not totally vanished until Christ is standing in physical possession of the temple and the city and the land and the world. Hard to split as they are one event.
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It's melting fast here. This AM is rather picturesque as last night was foggy and we had a ***** of a frost.
Well. the gods (Had to mention them or I would be accused of being off topic) sent us a blizzard. The snow piles on the drive in the lee of our humble abode! Three feet high and rising!
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Just for the hell of it lets look at a couple of god's creations.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1665977&id=596597203
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1665977&id=596597203
Prosperity for the god-fearing in this World and the Afterlife
First: Concerning the pious: the monotheists who do not associate the idols with God:
God – be glorified – said in the Quran 83: 18-20
كَلَّا إِنَّ كِتَابَالْأَبْرَارِ لَفِي عِلِّيِّينَ .وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَاعِلِّيُّونَ . كِتَابٌمَّرْقُومٌ ...الخ
The explanation:
(No, [they cannot escape the Fire, but] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the pious [shall] be in a high station [in this World and in the Hereafter.]
(No, [they cannot escape the Fire, but] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the pious [shall] be in a high station [in this World and in the Hereafter.]
But can you imagine what this 'high station' is?
A written book, with numbers [: chapter 26, Leviticus])
This is in the Book of Levites, chapter 26:
"3 If you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 And I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
7 And you shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And you shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and you shall be my people."
"3 If you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 And I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
7 And you shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And you shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and you shall be my people."
Second: While about what God prepared for the god-fearing who do not associate with Him; this is in the Quran 83: 20-34
كِتَابٌ مَّرْقُومٌ ...الخ
The explanation:
(A written book, with numbers [: chapter 26, Leviticus]
Those brought nigh [to God, in Paradise] are [now] witnessing [this prosperous station.]
Surely, the pious [shall prosper] in the prosperity [of Paradise.]
On couches, looking [to the trees, birds and palaces of Paradise.]
You know, in their faces, the radiance of prosperity.
[As] they are given to drink of a 'pure wine' [and the openings of the bottles thereof are] sealed.
Sealed with musk – so after that let the strivers strive.
And which is mixed [with water] from 'Tasniem' [: a water-fall.]
[Coming from a high] fountain at which do drink those brought nigh [in the highest paradise, and they please themselves with the scene thereof.]
Surely, the sinners used to laugh at the believers.
And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other [in mockery.]
And when they returned to their families, they returned blithely.
So this day [of Judgment, it is] the believers [who] do laugh at the unbelievers.
On couches, looking [to the trees, birds and palaces of Paradise.]
Have the unbelievers been rewarded for what [gifts, presents and sacrifices] they had worked [in the life of the World?] [No, they haven't. Actually they have been punished.] )
(A written book, with numbers [: chapter 26, Leviticus]
Those brought nigh [to God, in Paradise] are [now] witnessing [this prosperous station.]
Surely, the pious [shall prosper] in the prosperity [of Paradise.]
On couches, looking [to the trees, birds and palaces of Paradise.]
You know, in their faces, the radiance of prosperity.
[As] they are given to drink of a 'pure wine' [and the openings of the bottles thereof are] sealed.
Sealed with musk – so after that let the strivers strive.
And which is mixed [with water] from 'Tasniem' [: a water-fall.]
[Coming from a high] fountain at which do drink those brought nigh [in the highest paradise, and they please themselves with the scene thereof.]
Surely, the sinners used to laugh at the believers.
And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other [in mockery.]
And when they returned to their families, they returned blithely.
So this day [of Judgment, it is] the believers [who] do laugh at the unbelievers.
On couches, looking [to the trees, birds and palaces of Paradise.]
Have the unbelievers been rewarded for what [gifts, presents and sacrifices] they had worked [in the life of the World?] [No, they haven't. Actually they have been punished.] )
quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/english2.htm#A_Call_from_God_to_the_People_of_the_ Bible_
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Punishment of the 'deniers and profligate' in this World and the Afterlife
First: Concerning the wrong-doers: the associaters who associate idols (or patrons or Jesus ...etc) with God: in this World.
God – be glorified – said in the Quran 83: 7-9
كَلَّا إِنَّ كِتَابَ الفُجَّارِ لَفِي سِجِّينٍ . وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا سِجِّينٌ . كِتَابٌ مَّرْقُومٌ ...الخ
The explanation:
(No, [do not decrease the measuring and the weighing; for] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the profligate will have a 'hard living' [in the after-death world.]
But can you imagine what this 'hard living' is?
A scripture with numbers [: No. 26 in the Torah: Levites: chapter 26] )
And this is in the Book of Levites, chapter 26
" 14 But if you will not hearken to me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you.
18 And if you will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits."
Second: Their punishment in the afterlife:
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 83:10-18
(No, [do not decrease the measuring and the weighing; for] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the profligate will have a 'hard living' [in the after-death world.]
But can you imagine what this 'hard living' is?
A scripture with numbers [: No. 26 in the Torah: Levites: chapter 26] )
And this is in the Book of Levites, chapter 26
" 14 But if you will not hearken to me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you.
18 And if you will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits."
Second: Their punishment in the afterlife:
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 83:10-18
كِتَابٌ مَّرْقُومٌ ...الخ
The explanation:
Woe, on that day, to the deniers!
Who deny the Day of Requital.
Which none denies but the transgressor [and] the sinner.
When Our revelations are recited to him, he says: "[These are mere] fables written by the ancients."
No, indeed; but [the unlawful wealth] that they earn has rusted their hearts.
No, [there will be no forgiveness nor mercy for them] but – on that day – they will be veiled from [the mercy of] their Lord.
Then they shall roast in Hell.
Then it will be said [to them]: "This is [the chastisement] that you denied [in the life of the World.]
No, [they cannot escape the Fire, but] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the pious [shall] be in a high station [in this World and in the Hereafter.]
man-after-death.t35.com/2.htm#Hell_
Woe, on that day, to the deniers!
Who deny the Day of Requital.
Which none denies but the transgressor [and] the sinner.
When Our revelations are recited to him, he says: "[These are mere] fables written by the ancients."
No, indeed; but [the unlawful wealth] that they earn has rusted their hearts.
No, [there will be no forgiveness nor mercy for them] but – on that day – they will be veiled from [the mercy of] their Lord.
Then they shall roast in Hell.
Then it will be said [to them]: "This is [the chastisement] that you denied [in the life of the World.]
No, [they cannot escape the Fire, but] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the pious [shall] be in a high station [in this World and in the Hereafter.]
man-after-death.t35.com/2.htm#Hell_
Punishment of the 'deniers and profligate' in this World and the Afterlife
First: Concerning the wrong-doers: the associaters who associate idols with God: in this World.
God – be glorified – said in the Quran 83: 7-9
كَلَّا إِنَّ كِتَابَ الفُجَّارِ لَفِي سِجِّينٍ . وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا سِجِّينٌ . كِتَابٌ مَّرْقُومٌ ...الخ
The explanation:
(No, [do not decrease the measuring and the weighing; for] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the profligate will have a 'hard living' [in the after-death world.]
But can you imagine what this 'hard living' is?
A scripture with numbers [: No. 26 in the Torah: Levites: chapter 26] )
And this is in the Book of Levites, chapter 26
" 14 But if you will not hearken to me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant:
16 I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you.
18 And if you will not yet for all this hearken to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits."
Second: Their punishment in the afterlife:
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 83:10-18
(No, [do not decrease the measuring and the weighing; for] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the profligate will have a 'hard living' [in the after-death world.]
But can you imagine what this 'hard living' is?
A scripture with numbers [: No. 26 in the Torah: Levites: chapter 26] )
And this is in the Book of Levites, chapter 26
" 14 But if you will not hearken to me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant:
16 I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you.
18 And if you will not yet for all this hearken to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits."
Second: Their punishment in the afterlife:
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 83:10-18
كِتَابٌ مَّرْقُومٌ ...الخ
The explanation:
(Woe, on that day, to the deniers!
Who deny the Day of Requital.
Which none denies but the transgressor [and] the sinner.
When Our revelations are recited to him, he says: "[These are mere] fables written by the ancients."
No, indeed; but [the unlawful wealth] that they earn has rusted their hearts.
No, [there will be no forgiveness nor mercy for them] but – on that day – they will be veiled from [the mercy of] their Lord.
Then they shall roast in Hell.
Then it will be said [to them]: "This is [the chastisement] that you denied [in the life of the World.]
No, [they cannot escape the Fire, but] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the pious [shall] be in a high station [in this World and in the Hereafter.] )
man-after-death.t35.com/2.htm#Hell_
(Woe, on that day, to the deniers!
Who deny the Day of Requital.
Which none denies but the transgressor [and] the sinner.
When Our revelations are recited to him, he says: "[These are mere] fables written by the ancients."
No, indeed; but [the unlawful wealth] that they earn has rusted their hearts.
No, [there will be no forgiveness nor mercy for them] but – on that day – they will be veiled from [the mercy of] their Lord.
Then they shall roast in Hell.
Then it will be said [to them]: "This is [the chastisement] that you denied [in the life of the World.]
No, [they cannot escape the Fire, but] surely it is inscribed [in the heavenly scriptures] that the pious [shall] be in a high station [in this World and in the Hereafter.] )
man-after-death.t35.com/2.htm#Hell_