The Improbability of God

[MHz]

Matthew 7:13-14

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


And that to me summarizes that religion is the broad road to destruction.

And you pretend you don't fear God, what you don't need to fear is that He would intentionally trap you or interfere with you ability to get on the other side of the gate..
Straight and narrow is staying within the Law (God's obviously), Jesus is the only man to have taken that path, no humps hollows or detours. We on the other hand are detour bound so our path meanders to and from the straight and narrow. If it was to stay that way then everybody would be lost, as it is we are all subject to judgment and as such our paths always ends up at the gate. It is single file through the gate an the path on the other side has well defined edges so nobody can get off (sin)

 

[petros]

Straight and narrow is staying within the Law

The Bible says STRAIT not straight. I thought you claimed to read it?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Or that God is really Vishnu, a destroyer of worlds.

There has been a slight confusion of Hindu mythology, Petros. Vishnu is not the destroyer, he looks after the world.

The Hindu Trinity; Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh (on which I think Christians based their idea of Trinity) works differently from Christian Trinity, in that each member of the Trinity has a fixed, defined function.

Brahma created the world, Vishnu looks after the world, and Mahesh will destroy it, he is the destroyer.

God has appeared on the earth nine times, all those were avatars of Vishnu (the purpose of those incarnations was to make the world a better place). The final avatar, still to come, will be that of Mahesh and he will destroy the world (I think this is where Christians got their idea of Second Coming).

 

[petros]

Well Sir. No matter how you slice it you can call it Revelations or the Kali Yuga but without some sort of "snapping out of it" mankind is pooched.

 

[Scott Free]

We can be Lawyers, or Bakers, or woodworkers but we are only really good at it if we do just one or at least one at a time. Since it is said God could do all that and more all at the same time in a perfect way the concept has to be false because you have decided it can't be done.

I don't understand what you mean.

If God covers a subject it should at least be acknowledged, in this case does God know anything about us. You don't have to believe it to acknowledge that God says this about Himself. If He knows this it might be rightfully assumed He knows even more about us than this tidbit.

1) You cannot say god knows anything at all when even that god exists is in serious doubt. Show me this god you're talking about and then we can discuss what it might or might not know.

2) God doesn't say anything. People say god says things. Now you might choose to believe that person but that still doesn't mean they were speaking for god.

3) Since god cannot be seen, is not evidenced to exist at all, it is more right to presume it doesn't know anything and in fact, that is the only reasonable conclusion. There is evidence in abundance that god doesn't know or cares nothing about this supposed knowledge you premise it has.

M't:10:30:
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

.... you do realize this is a bronze age saying?

We know approximately how many stars are out there, God is said to know each and every name of every star on top of the knowledge of us and things alive that are even smaller than us. On top of that He never has to go and refresh His memory. Anything less is not God, that only touches on knowledge once the moving of things comes into play the list is increased.

Your presuming a lot here since god has only been thought to know all the stars since people discovered the stars and what they are. How come god didn't tell Jesus about stars, the billions of galaxies, or for that matter antibiotics or a cure for cancer? The simple answer is that Jesus wasn't talking to god but hearing voices in his head, a straight up charlatan, or didn't exist at all.

Why can the conflicts and battles and murders that have resulted in material gain for the aggressor be subtracted from the list that puts their cause under the title of religious. ie Christians kill all the people in a 'new area for them' because they want the land and resources all for themselves and blame it on them being ungodly heathens who could not be converted.

In that case religion is a tool like war. mmmm yeah that makes it better.

By your own previous words you have some sort of qualifications that must be met before God is a possible answer.

Not by my definition but by the ones given by theists. Religionists cast around constantly redefining what god (or a god) is. The huge list of possibilities is endless but not by my doing but because of the theists themselves as they struggle to keep their fictions relevant.

(that you believe there is nobody who meets all those qualifications is neither here nor there) The more literal you make Scripture the higher the bar for being able to rightfully claim that title (in your case if it ever is).

You have missed the point: It is that the more attributes you ascribe to something the less likely it is that it exists. It has nothing to do with reaching anything but the likelihood that anything could be all those things.

Having a seemingly impossible to fulfill list is actually protection from being sucked into 'worshiping' something that is less than perfect.

So you conclude that it's better to believe something that doesn't exist thereby or to have no proof as proof!!!!!

Common MHz I know your way smarter than that.

 

[petros]

If you tear out the title page and toss it in a cave, Rudyard Kipling's; The Man Who Would Be King could pass for a holy book handed down through time.

 

[MHz]

The Bible says STRAIT not straight. I thought you claimed to read it?

I was trying to paint a picture of the path to the gate (which is what strait is describing)
Our two Laws are pretty specific, nor is there any shoulder, you are either within the Law or you are not.

 

[Spade]

Well, today is Woden's day!
About Woden: A Glimpse of the Face of Grimner

 

[Spade]

The gods aren't with me this morning; jpeg won't load! Do you think...?

 

[petros]

The gods aren't with me this morning; jpeg won't load! Do you think...?

Call an APEG!!!

 

[Spade]

 

[MHz]

I don't understand what you mean.

Basically you don't believe there is somebody who can do all the things the Bible describes God as being able to do. Angel of Death being a fine example, death that only claims the 1st born of man and beast and nobody else. That sort of thing but it has to be said first and then done.

1) You cannot say god knows anything at all when even that god exists is in serious doubt. Show me this god you're talking about and then we can discuss what it might or might not know.

If I could show you any discussion would be mute. In the meantime don't settle for less than what the Bible claims.

2) God doesn't say anything. People say god says things. Now you might choose to believe that person but that still doesn't mean they were speaking for god.

What is more important is if the things claimed ever get done, like a fishing industry on the Dead Sea. Since that is not an event all by itself if that and all the other associated events are done within the set time I might be willing to listen to whoever made that possible. If those words mesh nicely with Scripture then I would believe God was speaking. After the fishing can be observed, not before.

3) Since god cannot be seen, is not evidenced to exist at all, it is more right to presume it doesn't know anything and in fact, that is the only reasonable conclusion. There is evidence in abundance that god doesn't know or cares nothing about this supposed knowledge you premise it has.

I don't think it's a real big deal with God that you are a believer before you have overwhelming proof. It is important to Him that He shows you enough proof that you become a believer before a set time and place.

.... you do realize this is a bronze age saying?

Yes but a t-shirt made today (showing somebody counting hairs) is copyright free so you could keep all the profits and never be sued

Your presuming a lot here since god has only been thought to know all the stars since people discovered the stars and what they are. How come god didn't tell Jesus about stars, the billions of galaxies, or for that matter antibiotics or a cure for cancer? The simple answer is that Jesus wasn't talking to god but hearing voices in his head, a straight up charlatan, or didn't exist at all.

As for how much Jesus knows about the Heavens Proverbs:8 says He saw it all right when it happened, including the handing out of names. Our discovery only increased the number of stars, the Milky Way is not an entity by itself, it is made from the glory of many, many stars. It doesn't matter if a twinkle of light in out skies is more than one single star, it is still starlight that we see..

In that case religion is a tool like war. mmmm yeah that makes it better.

War can be declared for many reasons, religion doesn't have a monopoly on spreading death and destruction.

Not by my definition but by the ones given by theists. Religionists cast around constantly redefining what god (or a god) is. The huge list of possibilities is endless but not by my doing but because of the theists themselves as they struggle to keep their fictions relevant.

As long as a verse can be supplied that is in context it would seem like it is a qualification that must be met before the use of the word God can be considered.

You have missed the point: It is that the more attributes you ascribe to something the less likely it is that it exists. It has nothing to do with reaching anything but the likelihood that anything could be all those things.

Are you complaining that the Bible sets an impossibly high standard?

So you conclude that it's better to believe something that doesn't exist thereby or to have no proof as proof!!!!!

What I saying is that disbelief based on the words written can be a result of error in understanding rather than the error being in the writing. What I'm not sure is that you understand that not being a believer after reading the Bible is not a sentence to the eternal lake of burning fire and brimstone. That can only happen after you have been given physical proof (kick Him in the shins if that is what you require, 365 days pf non-stop conversation if that is what it takes. If He has just raised you from the dead I think that would quell the need for further proof.

 

[eanassir]

Really, I have mistaken Hitchens for Dawkins.
Hitchens or Dawkins all the same. So Hitchens is the drunkard atheist. Eventhough, the other one looks alcoholic also: look to his pink- red cheeks. Of course nothing I found about his addiction or not.

Anyhow for both these atheists, God's saying in the Quran 22: 8-10 is applicable:

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ . ثَانِيَ عِطْفِهِ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ لَهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَنُذِيقُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ .ذَلِكَ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ يَدَاكَ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ لَيْسَ بِظَلَّامٍ لِّلْعَبِيدِ​

The explanation:
(And yet there are among people some who dispute about [the religion of] God without knowledge, without guidance, and without any illuminating Book [like the Ten Words inscribed by God on the Tablets which emitted light.]​

Turning apart his kindness [from his relatives] to mislead [them] from God's way;
for him is disgrace in this World, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the chastisement of Burning [in Hell.]​

That is according to what your hands forwarded, and for that God is never unjust to [His] servants.)​

 

[MHz]

Hitchens or Dawkins all the same.

No, that isn't the way it works.

 

[eanassir]

No, that isn't the way it works.

As you like MHz; so both of them are atheists.

And this is in the Quran 37: 22 concerning such wrong-doers:

​

احْشُرُوا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا وَأَزْوَاجَهُمْ وَمَا كَانُوا يَعْبُدُونَ . مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ فَاهْدُوهُمْ إِلَى صِرَاطِ الْجَحِيمِ . وَقِفُوهُمْ إِنَّهُم مَّسْئُولُونَ ...الخ​

The explanation:
([Then God will say to the angels:]
"Bring up those who wronged [their people] together with their wives [: the associaters] and [the devils] that they served [in the world of souls],"

"Apart from God, and direct them to the path of Hell."

"And stop them; for they are to be questioned [concerning their followers.]"

[It will be said to them in rebuke:] "What ails you that you help not one another!?"

No, indeed; but today they resign themselves in submission [to the doom.] )


man-after-death.t35.com/2.htm#The_Standing_[before_God:_the_Judge]_​

 

[MHz]

As you like MHz; so both of them are atheists.

And this is in the Quran 37: 22 concerning such wrong-doers:

احْشُرُوا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا وَأَزْوَاجَهُمْ وَمَا كَانُوا يَعْبُدُونَ . مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ فَاهْدُوهُمْ إِلَى صِرَاطِ الْجَحِيمِ . وَقِفُوهُمْ إِنَّهُم مَّسْئُولُونَ ...الخ​

The explanation:
([Then God will say to the angels:]
"Bring up those who wronged [their people] together with their wives [: the associaters] and [the devils] that they served [in the world of souls],"

"Apart from God, and direct them to the path of Hell."

"And stop them; for they are to be questioned [concerning their followers.]"

[It will be said to them in rebuke:] "What ails you that you help not one another!?"

No, indeed; but today they resign themselves in submission [to the doom.] )


man-after-death.t35.com/2.htm#The_Standing_[before_God:_the_Judge]_​

I assume Angel is the same as Angel in the Bible, a creature who can live off this world, rather than man being given that sort of authority over any other man. We can turn our back on the ungodly but any and all punishment the man deserves must come from Heaven alone. Angels would be mission sent.
Show me where one is punished for not being hired before another one that was hired. The only danger indicated is the danger of thinking one group is more important than any other. What is important is being hired before the end of the day.

M't:20:1:
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder,
which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
M't:20:2:
And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day,
he sent them into his vineyard.
M't:20:3:
And he went out about the third hour,
and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
M't:20:4:
And said unto them;
Go ye also into the vineyard,
and whatsoever is right I will give you.
And they went their way.
M't:20:5:
Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour,
and did likewise.
M't:20:6:
And about the eleventh hour he went out,
and found others standing idle,
and saith unto them,
Why stand ye here all the day idle?
M't:20:7:
They say unto him,
Because no man hath hired us.
He saith unto them,
Go ye also into the vineyard;
and whatsoever is right,
that shall ye receive.
M't:20:8:
So when even was come,
the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward,
Call the labourers,
and give them their hire,
beginning from the last unto the first.
M't:20:9:
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour,
they received every man a penny.
M't:20:10:
But when the first came,
they supposed that they should have received more;
and they likewise received every man a penny.
M't:20:11:
And when they had received it,
they murmured against the goodman of the house,
M't:20:12:
Saying,
These last have wrought but one hour,
and thou hast made them equal unto us,
which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
M't:20:13:
But he answered one of them,
and said,
Friend,
I do thee no wrong:
didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
M't:20:14:
Take that thine is,
and go thy way:
I will give unto this last,
even as unto thee.
M't:20:15:
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil,
because I am good?

 

[eanassir]

This parable is one of the marvelous parables that Jesus Christ said; it denotes that the one who repent will have the wage according to God's generosity; because those who repent will have high degree.

This does not include such atheists as the enemy of God Almighty unless they may be guided righteously at the last moment, the thing which I doubt.

These atheists have taken the way of impeding people from the way of God the Lord of the heaven and the earth.

This is in the Quran 16: 37​

إِن تَحْرِصْ عَلَى هُدَاهُمْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي مَن يُضِلُّ وَمَا لَهُم مِّن نَّاصِرِينَ​

The explanation:
([O Mohammed] even if you try your best to guide them aright, surely God never guides those whom He misleads, and you will not find for them any helpers.)

It means:
You, Mohammed, cannot guide anyone whom God has not guided, whatever hard you try. God misguides them because they are wrong-doers deserving the punishment.

While as regards angels; see about them here:
man-after-death.t35.com/1.htm#Angels_
​

 

[MHz]

God allows some to have their hearts hardened so that all prophecy will occur as written. Being gather later is the punishment because that person receives blessings from God later than some. That does not make them less than entirely equal when there are finally gathered.
Here is an incident where the delay in gathering some is for the purpose of teaching another group something about God that they would otherwise be unaware of.

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

(((their return from death is as follows)))

Eze:39:26:
After that they have borne their shame,
and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me,
when they dwelt safely in their land,
and none made them afraid.
Eze:39:27:
When I have brought them again from the people,
and gathered them out of their enemies' lands,
and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze:39:28:
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God,
which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen:
but I have gathered them unto their own land,
and have left none of them any more there.

(((With God something can appear to be lost but it is only put to the side for a little while. )))

 

[Cliffy]

Boy! Dueling Dogma! Isn't this fun?

 

[MHz]

Careful Cliffy this is an non-observer sport, pointing out something might cost you the whole arm.