The Improbability of God

[petros]

MHz - have you ever read the companion books to the Bible such as the book of Enoch or the Zohar?

 

[MHz]

That weren't Assyrians?

Scripture doesn't give any specific names for anyplace in particular before the flood. That doesn't mean the expansion of Eve's children didn't include the entire earth. No need to flood all the lands if the giants and violent man had not made it that far. By using those names it makes it easy to locate on a map because the location given in the OT (after the flood)is so detailed and precise. I'm pretty sure we are allowed to use names of places in use at sometime between the great flood and the new earth.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Women rights in the Quran – 3​

The woman as a witness in the court of justice:

God – be exalted – said in the Quran 2: 282​

وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى​

The explanation:
(And call in to witness two witnesses, out of your men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witnesses as you approve of; that if one of the two women errs, the other will 'remind and admonish' her.)

The interpretation:
>> (And call in to witness) concerning the debt, and [to be written] in the document,
>> (two witnesses, out of your men) that are Muslims,
>> (or if the two be not men) available for witness,
>> (then one man and two women) give witness,
>> (such witnesses as you approve of) i.e. accepted by the creditor, and approved by the judge,

The reason for assigning two women to give witness:

>> (that if one of the two women errs) It means: God assigned two of women; so that if one of the two women errs concerning the truth, so that it may conceal the testimony or witness for any reason, then in that case:
>> (the other will 'remind and admonish' her) It means: the one that gives the testimony or witness will remind the other woman who has not admitted the witness, admonish her and remind her of God's punishment and chastisement in case she will conceal the testimony and deny the right of the creditor who lent the sum of money.

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

Again, you have made my case, eanassir, thank you. Now, let us see the practical implications of this. I have covered some of the ground before, but it may be useful to go over it again, in light of your post.

Anyway, so we are both agreed that according to Islam, one man equals two women, the testimony of one man in a Sharia court is regarded as equivalent to that of two women.

So if a man testifies one way (let us say he saw defendant wearing a blue coat) and if a woman testifies the other way (let us say she saw defendant wearing a red coat), the judge has absolutely no discretion in the matter, he must believe the man.

The man may be half blind, he may be drunk, he may be half asleep, none of these things matter. He is right just because he is a man, and a woman is wrong (she may be standing right next to the defendant, she may be quite alert, the defendant may even have stolen her red coat and may be wearing it, none of this matters), just because she is a woman. Her testimony will be believable only if there is another woman standing next to her and testifies the same way. Otherwise, the woman’s testimony is worth exactly a zero.

So man is right no matter what, and woman is wrong no matter what, just because she is a woman. If you don’t think that this clearly establishes the superiority of the man and inferiority of the woman, you must be a dedicated fanatic indeed.

And this is only a sample of how vicious Islam is towards women. Koran and Sharia regard women as only half human, since a woman has exactly half the rights of man.

 

[eanassir]

I really can't understand how I ever believed this religion crap.

It was like being in a fog.

It's quite embarrassing actually.

God – be exalted – said in the Quran 18: 103-105​

قُلْ هَلْ نُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِالْأَخْسَرِينَ أَعْمَالًا . الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَهُمْ يَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّهُمْ يُحْسِنُونَ صُنْعًا . أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَلِقَائِهِ فَحَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فَلَا نُقِيمُ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَزْنًا . ذَلِكَ جَزَاؤُهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ بِمَا كَفَرُوا وَاتَّخَذُوا آيَاتِي وَرُسُلِي هُزُوًا​

The explanation:
(Say: "Shall we tell you who will be the greatest losers in [the reward of] their works?" [They are] those whose efforts in the Worldly life will be lost, while they think that they are doing good deeds.

Those are they who unbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and [in] the meeting with Him; so their works have failed, and on the Judgment Day We shall not make for them any judgment.

That is their reward: Hell; because they unbelieved and took My revelations and My messengers as a jest.)


man-after-death.t35.com​

 

[MHz]

MHz - have you ever read the companion books to the Bible such as the book of Enoch or the Zohar?

I had an link to a copy of Enoch at one time, certainly 'look' and 'sounds' very similar to the old and new testaments. Christ is called the Son of Man and the part about Him is quite small when the whole of his book is referenced. Uses the words 'ten thousand' way, way too many time. I never counted the number but it is the 1,000+ for sure.

The visions of all that travel in Heaven might be more interesting to an artistic person because the descriptions are so vivid. For me I can't decide if the cloudy road is banked in the corners or if it is flat-track when the chariots come from between the metallic mountains (whatever that means)

The fallen watchers part is interesting, in that they were actually quite afraid of God if they had Enoch petitioning on their behalf. It is even given how tall they were but that measurement isn't used anymore so it remains unknown. They do seem to be bigger physically by some amount though.

The Zohar with Adam Chandler? Only seen the preview so far, is it out in DVD yet?
I believe it has an Israeli theme as a background kinda thing, is your reference similar?

 

[eanassir]

Again, you have made my case, eanassir, thank you. Now, let us see the practical implications of this. I have covered some of the ground before, but it may be useful to go over it again, in light of your post.

Anyway, so we are both agreed that according to Islam, one man equals two women, the testimony of one man in a Sharia court is regarded as equivalent to that of two women.

So if a man testifies one way (let us say he saw defendant wearing a blue coat) and if a woman testifies the other way (let us say she saw defendant wearing a red coat), the judge has absolutely no discretion in the matter, he must believe the man.

The man may be half blind, he may be drunk, he may be half asleep, none of these things matter. He is right just because he is a man, and a woman is wrong (she may be standing right next to the defendant, she may be quite alert, the defendant may even have stolen her red coat and may be wearing it, none of this matters), just because she is a woman. Her testimony will be believable only if there is another woman standing next to her and testifies the same way. Otherwise, the woman’s testimony is worth exactly a zero.
So man is right no matter what, and woman is wrong no matter what, just because she is a woman. If you don’t think that this clearly establishes the superiority of the man and inferiority of the woman, you must be a dedicated fanatic indeed.
And this is only a sample of how vicious Islam is towards women. Koran and Sharia regard women as only half human, since a woman has exactly half the rights of man.

It is obviously clear that you do not read the ayat and their translated meaning and interpretation.
While God – be exalted – told people to ponder His revelations; as in the Quran 47: 24​

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ أَمْ عَلَى قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا​

The explanation:
(So will they not meditate on the Quran?
Or are there locks on [their] hearts?)

Refer to post #176 on page 6 about:
" The reason for assigning two women to give witness:

>> (that if one of the two women errs) It means: God assigned two of women; so that if one of the two women errs concerning the truth, so that it may conceal the testimony or witness for any reason, then in that case:
>> (the other will 'remind and admonish' her) It means: the one that gives the testimony or witness will remind the other woman who has not admitted the witness, admonish her and remind her of God's punishment and chastisement in case she will conceal the testimony and deny the right of the creditor who lent the sum of money."
----------------------------------------------------------------

While what you said about the man is blind or drunk and the judge will take his words to the disadvantage of the woman is only your misunderstanding of the whole subject. There is nothing like the woman will be robbed of her rights; it is only a matter of proving some incidents:

like the debt and its documentation and bringing two witnesses of the men, and if not two men are available then a man and two women to affirm the case. And the reason for requiring two women is that one of them will remind the other to be upright in her testimony.

Thanks to God Who revealed all His wise commandments in the Glorious Quran.

If you had read the aya carefully (and in case you are not Arabian read the translated interpretation), you would have discovered that not any witness is accepted: so that you said if the man is blind or drunk!

"The interpretation:
>> (And call in to witness) concerning the debt, and [their witness or testimony is to be written] in the document,
>> (two witnesses, out of your men) that are Muslims,
>> (or if the two be not men) available for witness,
>> (then one man and two women) give witness,
>> (such witnesses as you approve of) i.e. accepted by the creditor, and approved by the judge,"
>> (that if one of the two women errs) It means: God assigned two of women; so that if one of the two women errs concerning the truth, so that it may conceal the testimony or witness for any reason, then in that case:
>> (the other will 'remind and admonish' her) It means: the one that gives the testimony or witness will remind the other woman who has not admitted the witness, admonish her and remind her of God's punishment and chastisement in case she conceals the testimony and denies the right of the creditor who lent the sum of money.
-------------------------------------------------------

You cannot take all individuals equally concerning the witness: the child is other than the adult, the old man who has memory loss and less concentration is not like the young, and the teenager is other than the mature man, as may the woman be other than the man in this respect.

Woman usually is inclined to her emotion and affection more than man; she may incline to her emotion, and say this one indebted is poor, so let me conceal his debt and help him; or on other hand, she may dislike the indebted and so on. And woman may be cheated by any of the opponents by the way of this emotion and affection.

Therefore, this is only that one of the two women will remind and admonish the other woman to beware of God's punishment in case she betrays the truth and conceal it.

man-after-death.t35.com​

 

[MHz]

Sorry to interrupt but if the relationship between a potter and the clay is part of a larger pattern then the big bang would be similar to a potter having a lump of clay in the palm of his hand. If he started to squeeze and kneed that clay it would come gushing out where the 'seal' was least tight. If the speed of the ejected clay was fast enough it would cease to be part of the lump. For us it would mean we are leaving the lump at a speed greater than the speed of light. The missing matter is the lump which is many 1,000's of times greater than the cast off clay.
If the hands ever tried to expand it would create a huge vacuum. We should be looking for a black-hole that is taking our known black holes.

The above is based on 'on Earth as in Heaven', out true rate of expansion should have the speed of light (at the least) added to what we think it is now. While the cast off pieces never rejoin the lump they are still in the potter's place.

Basically the cracks in the earth's crust (latest Googleearth is awesome) are mirrored in Heaven as the filaments that exists between all galaxies (and bigger) .
The space between these cracks/filaments are the smoothest parts of the potters hands and if you looked back from where we are expanding to that boundary would be moving faster than light and reducing in size overall while increasing in density.

So is that relationship that is established in Scripture possible on a universal scale?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Woman usually is inclined to her emotion and affection more than man; she may incline to her emotion, and say this one indebted is poor, so let me conceal his debt and help him; or on other hand, she may dislike the indebted and so on. And woman may be cheated by any of the opponents by the way of this emotion and affection.

So women are too emotional and cannot think clearly? Now, I know that in the Islamic countries, most professions are closed to women, women are prohibited from entering professions. However, in the West we have women judges, lawyers, even Supreme Court Justices. Or female engineers, doctors scientists etc. Are you saying that they all work out of emotion rather than the logic?

That when a female Supreme Court justice hands down a decision, it has nothing to do with constitution, or the Charter, but how a woman ‘feels’ about the case? That is sexism at its worst (sexism is fully as bad as racism).

The main purpose of Sharia and Koran is to oppress women (and nonbelievers). Koran and Sharia clearly say that one man is equal to two women, that women are only half human. And what reason do you give for this atrocious reasoning (that woman is only as good as half a man)? That women are too emotional, that they cannot think clearly and rationally, that it needs two women to think as clearly as one man.

Sorry, but this is oppression, hatred of the worst kind. This is not just some prejudice expressed by some redneck somewhere, but it is institutionalized oppression, carried out with the help of religion and Holy Book.

You really reinforce my point that Islam regards one man equal to two women, and your lame explanation (that woman canto think as clearly as a man) simply demonstrates the prejudice, hatred that Koran, Sharia and militant Muslims feel towards women.

Anyway, keeping coming with your opinion and attitude towards women. The more you write, the more you illustrate my argument that Islam and Sharia are virulently anti-woman. Now we know what most Muslim men think (typified by you), that women are too emotional and cannot think clearly, that it takes two women to think as clearly as one man.

So presumably you can think more clearly than say, Hillary Clinton (she is just a woman). It probably would take Hillary Clinton and the Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg together to think as clearly as you, a man.

Wow, what a colossal ego. The more rope is fed to you, the more you seem to hang yourself.

 

[Scott Free]

God – be exalted – said in the Quran 18: 103-105​

قُلْ هَلْ نُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِالْأَخْسَرِينَ أَعْمَالًا . الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَهُمْ يَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّهُمْ يُحْسِنُونَ صُنْعًا . أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَلِقَائِهِ فَحَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فَلَا نُقِيمُ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَزْنًا . ذَلِكَ جَزَاؤُهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ بِمَا كَفَرُوا وَاتَّخَذُوا آيَاتِي وَرُسُلِي هُزُوًا​

The explanation:
(Say: "Shall we tell you who will be the greatest losers in [the reward of] their works?" [They are] those whose efforts in the Worldly life will be lost, while they think that they are doing good deeds.

Those are they who unbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and [in] the meeting with Him; so their works have failed, and on the Judgment Day We shall not make for them any judgment.

That is their reward: Hell; because they unbelieved and took My revelations and My messengers as a jest.)


man-after-death.t35.com​

lol, I can always trust you to completely miss the point :lol:

I meant being religious, that is, believing in these egomaniacs who think they are partners with god, is hell.

You are in hell eanassir and your fear is what puts you there.

For me the fog has lifted and I can enjoy life. I don't have to worry about imaginary things stalking me.

 

[Scott Free]

So why did you drop out, the book or the people?

Both.

Still if you like twists and turns and all sorts of weird sub-plots the Bible's fulfull all those things and a few more. The trick is in a conflict the book is always right. If man could follow that one instruction, love thy neighbor as you love yourself, there would be no need for Christ to return.

But that isn't Christian it's pagan!

Seriously, cast in the right light, people can make just about anything a premise for living. That doesn't prove anything about the thing, it proves something about people.

The Christian faith has very little for living. It is completely vacant of mysticism or dealing with problems.

The process: Give yourself to Jesus - your saved - end of problems - buzz off and give money.

Since the Church is just as cruel to others, and even more so at times, coming back is not an option if death itself is to die, the world in general intentionally keeps feeding it at present. Bad manners isn't the onle threat to man's extinction, a rock big enough to cause an air blast that would take out an area the size of James Bay just whizzed by yesterday or the day before. From what I hear it was twice the distance as our highest sat. Something like that might take people's minds off war for awhile but it would result in more deaths that the wars would have taken.

There needs to be some mechanism of population control. Pragmatically speaking you can let nature deal with the problem or you can let war deal with it, but both are consequences of people not dealing with the problem.

 

[Spade]

Thank you, Scott Free, for sticking up for us pagans. We are a maligned and misunderstood lot. Except for Tyr! Well, except for Tyr today!

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Thank you, Scott Free, for sticking up for us pagans. We are a maligned and misunderstood lot. Except for Tyr! Well, except for Tyr today!

Spade, we are all Pagans, according to Fundamentalist Christians. In the eyes of a Fundamentalist, anybody who doesn’t agree with him is a Pagan (including other Christians), is a spawn of the Devil and is headed straight for Hell.

Thus, when a Fundamentalist says ‘Christian’, he means a Fundamentalist, and when the says ‘Pagan’ he means everybody else (including Christians who are not Fundamentalists).

So we are all Pagans on this discussion forum, except for a few exalted individuals.

 

[Spade]

Woden will bless you tomorrow morning, SJP.
PS
We are so ethnocentric, when we speak of God, it's always the same One, rather than one of the other 2600 or so (at godchecker.com).

 

[Spade]

Godchecker.com - Your Guide To The Gods. Mythology with a twist!

 

[eanassir]

Woman usually is inclined to her emotion and affection more than man; she may incline to her emotion, and say this one indebted is poor, so let me conceal his debt and help him; or on other hand, she may dislike the indebted and so on. And woman may be cheated by any of the opponents by the way of this emotion and affection.

So women are too emotional and cannot think clearly? Now, I know that in the Islamic countries, most professions are closed to women, women are prohibited from entering professions. However, in the West we have women judges, lawyers, even Supreme Court Justices. Or female engineers, doctors scientists etc. Are you saying that they all work out of emotion rather than the logic?

That when a female Supreme Court justice hands down a decision, it has nothing to do with constitution, or the Charter, but how a woman ‘feels’ about the case? That is sexism at its worst (sexism is fully as bad as racism).

The main purpose of Sharia and Koran is to oppress women (and nonbelievers). Koran and Sharia clearly say that one man is equal to two women, that women are only half human. And what reason do you give for this atrocious reasoning (that woman is only as good as half a man)? That women are too emotional, that they cannot think clearly and rationally, that it needs two women to think as clearly as one man.

Sorry, but this is oppression, hatred of the worst kind. This is not just some prejudice expressed by some redneck somewhere, but it is institutionalized oppression, carried out with the help of religion and Holy Book.

You really reinforce my point that Islam regards one man equal to two women, and your lame explanation (that woman canto think as clearly as a man) simply demonstrates the prejudice, hatred that Koran, Sharia and militant Muslims feel towards women.

Anyway, keeping coming with your opinion and attitude towards women. The more you write, the more you illustrate my argument that Islam and Sharia are virulently anti-woman. Now we know what most Muslim men think (typified by you), that women are too emotional and cannot think clearly, that it takes two women to think as clearly as one man.

So presumably you can think more clearly than say, Hillary Clinton (she is just a woman). It probably would take Hillary Clinton and the Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg together to think as clearly as you, a man.

Wow, what a colossal ego. The more rope is fed to you, the more you seem to hang yourself.

This has nothing to do with the West or East; the emotional factor with women is stronger than that of men.

I tell you the truth whether it suits Sir Joseph or not.

And God explained that in case one of the two women erred from telling the true testimony, then the other one will admonish her; and this is to verify justice.

Such statements and commandments were in the original Torah, but later on many distortions occurred, and in the Quran such statements came pure and unchangeable.

God – be celebrated His praise – said in the Quran 24: 34 ​

وَلَقَدْ أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكُمْ آيَاتٍ مُّبَيِّنَاتٍ وَمَثَلًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِن قَبْلِكُمْ وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ​

The explanation:
(And We have sent down for you revelations: detailing [statements],

and the example of those who passed away before you,

and an admonition to those who ward off [the disobedience; in order to receive this admonition and avoid the disobedience of God.] )

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[Cliffy]

Spade,

god is any one of the 2600 or none at all. But the old gods were a hell of a lot more interesting than the war god of the desert! Most of the old gods were a little psychotic but not sociopaths.

 

[eanassir]

lol, I can always trust you to completely miss the point :lol:

This is in the Quran 9: 82​

فَلْيَضْحَكُواْ قَلِيلاً وَلْيَبْكُواْ كَثِيرًا جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُواْ يَكْسِبُونَ​

The explanation:
(So let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the [evil] that they do.)

It means: We shall make their life in the World having much sadness and little happiness; and by this their laughing will decrease and their crying and weeping will increase –– this is according to the sins that they earn.
​

 

[Cliffy]

I think we should rename this thread The Improbability of Eanassir. It seems a little unreal to me that he/she/it is a real person. judging by the nature and bent of his/her/its posts, that it is more likely that we are dealing with an automaton or a robot programed cut and paste the Koran ad nausium. A being incapable of free thought, that only parrots what others have declared the truth, without question, is not firing on all cylenders.

 

[Scott Free]

This is in the Quran 9: 82​

فَلْيَضْحَكُواْ قَلِيلاً وَلْيَبْكُواْ كَثِيرًا جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُواْ يَكْسِبُونَ​

The explanation:
(So let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the [evil] that they do.)

It means: We shall make their life in the World having much sadness and little happiness; and by this their laughing will decrease and their crying and weeping will increase –– this is according to the sins that they earn.
​

I cannot express how happy this makes me!

I live a full and rich life. I am mostly happy now that I don't worry god is watching everything I do.

But now you have added that my happiness is like a wound to one such as yourself. That one who is full of contempt, self-righteousness, loathing and petty egotism is wounded by my happiness brings me great joy! It is like being able to piss in Hitlers soup!

Thank you eanassir.

I am very happy. I have a good life. I'm wealthy and in good health. My child is brilliant and well natured. I couldn't ask for more - doesn't that just burn your @ss?

And I don't have to worship a sick and twisted god either!

:lol:

Yep, life is great when you're a heathen, blasphemer, idolater and atheist!

Funny that...

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I think we should rename this thread The Improbability of Eanassir. It seems a little unreal to me that he/she/it is a real person. judging by the nature and bent of his/her/its posts, that it is more likely that we are dealing with an automaton or a robot programed cut and paste the Koran ad nausium. A being incapable of free thought, that only parrots what others have declared the truth, without question, is not firing on all cylenders.

Cliffy, he is a real person all right, he is a religious fanatic. But I like to see him keep posting, he is the best advertisement of the ugly underbelly of Islam.

Let us recap what we learned from my discussion with him. And on this both I and he agree.

God says that one man is equal to two women. Thus in a Sharia court, if eanassir testifies one way and say, Hillary Clinton or Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg testifies the other way, the Sharia judge will have absolutely no discretion in the matter, he will have to believe eanassir.

And what is the reason for this? Why, women are too emotional, they cannot think clearly. A woman can think only half as clearly as a man. So presumably Mother Teresa or (the Nobel Prize winner) Madame Curie could think only half as clearly as eanassir.

Thus Islam regards women as half human, or subhuman. On this we both agree. So give eanassir enough rope, he hangs himself beautifully.

But he really typifies the thinking of Islam. It is a very nasty religion (incidentally, so is Christianity but most Christians have the sense enough not to take the Bible literally).