The Crimean referendum?
- Thread starter Machjo
- Start date
The international community? What a load of sh it. The so called international community is very select, bankers and corporations.
"The Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea... declares Crimea an independent sovereign state -- the Republic of Crimea," the document said.
It said that from Monday, Ukrainian laws would no longer apply in Crimea and decisions taken by the Ukrainian state since the ouster of Kremlin-backed president Viktor Yanukovych last month had no authority.
Crimea Declares Independence from Ukraine, Applies to Join Russia — Naharnet
What would the maritime borders look like for the Republic of Crimea look like? Those latest laws would also apply to the rest of the Ukraine in that they are not an elected Govt so Crimea can move ahead and get lots of money from Russia and the rest of the Ukraine can't do anything until they have a voted in Govt which is a few months down the road. This vote also shows the huge delays the US does when doing things is intentional, as is the vote in the Ukraine and the time Syria was given to start getting rid of their chemical weapons, the US gave them 6 months, with Russia's 'help' Syria was ready to ship them to a location once the boats were there to take the stuff away, those still haven't all arrived even though they are US war ships.
It said that from Monday, Ukrainian laws would no longer apply in Crimea and decisions taken by the Ukrainian state since the ouster of Kremlin-backed president Viktor Yanukovych last month had no authority.
Crimea Declares Independence from Ukraine, Applies to Join Russia — Naharnet
What would the maritime borders look like for the Republic of Crimea look like? Those latest laws would also apply to the rest of the Ukraine in that they are not an elected Govt so Crimea can move ahead and get lots of money from Russia and the rest of the Ukraine can't do anything until they have a voted in Govt which is a few months down the road. This vote also shows the huge delays the US does when doing things is intentional, as is the vote in the Ukraine and the time Syria was given to start getting rid of their chemical weapons, the US gave them 6 months, with Russia's 'help' Syria was ready to ship them to a location once the boats were there to take the stuff away, those still haven't all arrived even though they are US war ships.
Lets see how many at the UN buck the US by recognizing Crimea as being independent., that could be a telling point for what happens in the near future.
Post the current approval ratings of the two leaders, lets see which crowd is 'bigger' your side or the right side.
Outside the voting booths, not in them. Still secret ballot. Besides, it would backfire big time if some other referendum shows the opposite result, so I'm sure Russia would be careful not to mess with that. Heck even the people in the streets were convinced they'd win.
Putin did his homework before stormin' in guns ablazin'.
The crux of this whole issue seems to be the legitimacy of this referendum.
Russia sends tanks in to 'protect' people but the rest of the world thinks it was a means to influence a vote.
If there is evidence that there was no such influence, then Putin could be justified. If there is clear evidence that this was a military offensive, then the rest of the world is right.
In any case, people are playing politics with this uncertainty.
The worst example being these American right wingers who would support a friggin communist regime just because they don't like the guy that's currently in power in the U.S.
Russia sends tanks in to 'protect' people but the rest of the world thinks it was a means to influence a vote.
If there is evidence that there was no such influence, then Putin could be justified. If there is clear evidence that this was a military offensive, then the rest of the world is right.
In any case, people are playing politics with this uncertainty.
The worst example being these American right wingers who would support a friggin communist regime just because they don't like the guy that's currently in power in the U.S.
I'm assuming that referendum (which the pro-Canadians just about won by the skin of their teeth) was legal. The Crimean one isn't.
It's easy to take over a piece of land without any bloodshed when the vast majority of people of that land want you to take over them.
The Russians "invading" Crimea without any bloodshed is just as easy as the British "invading" the Falklands or Gibraltar without any bloodshed.
There is nothing here that "the West should learn".
Not entirely. Even if the referendum was totally above-board, Russia was still wrong in violating international law. The problem though is how much credibility do the US and Canada have in preaching international law when we've thumbed our noses at it ourselves and say it's not worth the paper it's written on?
We say it violates the Ukrainian Constitution, but did the invasion of Iraq not violate the Iraqi Constitution too? If you say Iraq wasn't democratic, then in relative terms what about Ukraine not giving Crimea a referendum?
So this referendum still does not excuse Putin's actions. The issue here is that we're the pot calling the kettle black, with the pot maybe being blacker still.
Fair point Machjo.
Would you say that international law was flawed or justified in this circumstance?
Would you say that international law was flawed or justified in this circumstance?
It is a believeable result. Remember that many crimeans would have been educated in teh USSR and so would have memories of having been of one nation with Russia, not to mention that ethnically they are Russian not Ukrainian, why Putin talked of Russian speakers. It would be like a part of Canada separated from canada a few decades ago voting to rejoin it.
Crimea is now part of Russia.
There is nothing the west can do about it now, it's all over except for the crying (by the west).
All the west is doing now is waving a wet noodle, they may as well accept it and move on.
The bigger issue is, will Putin start to take over eastern Ukraine? The west should forget about Crimea now, it's a done deal.
There is nothing the west can do about it now, it's all over except for the crying (by the west).
All the west is doing now is waving a wet noodle, they may as well accept it and move on.
The bigger issue is, will Putin start to take over eastern Ukraine? The west should forget about Crimea now, it's a done deal.
If you can call the question put to Canadians about the 1995 referendum clear, then I suppose it was legal.
There were other referendums that led to questions of "attention seeking"
It's the concept that the ends do not justify the means. If international law is flawed, then we shodl try to cahnge it via legal means and not violate it. I guess I'm just a conservative law-'n-order type. We even obey laws with which we disagree. That's what the law is all about.
Actually it would result in other parts of the Ukraine hold the same kind of vote and no Russian troops would need to be involved.
Rubbish. Try telling that to the Falkland Islanders and the Gibraltarians.
A referendum on political status was held in the British Overseas Territory of the Falkland Islands on 10–11 March 2013. The Falkland Islanders were asked whether or not they supported the continuation of their status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom in view of Argentina's call for negotiations on the islands' sovereignty. On a turnout of 92%, an overwhelming 99.8% voted to remain a British territory, with 1,513 of the 1,517 who voted voting in favour, with only three votes against (one vote was invalid).
The British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar has had a similar referendum twice.
On 10 September 1967, Gibraltarian voters were asked whether they wished to either pass under Spanish sovereignty, with Gibraltarians keeping their British citizenship and a special status for Gibraltar within bordering Spain; or remain under British sovereignty, with institutions of self-government. Of the 12,237 who voted (a turnout of 95.67%), 12,138 (99.64%) voted to retain British sovereignty, with just 44 (0.36%) voting to become Spanish.
The Government of Gibraltar called a referendum on 7 November 2002 to establish the popular support for a proposal to share sovereignty of the territory between Spain and the United Kingdom. The result was a massive rejection of the concept. Of the 18,087 valid votes cast by Gibraltarians (89 were invalid or blank) in an 87.9% turnout, 17,900 (98.48%) voted NO, wanting to remain solely British, with just 187 (1.03%) voting YES.
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All Rise
Statement by the Prime Minister of Canada on the results of the Crimean “referendum”
Ottawa, Ontario
16 March 2014
Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement on the results of the Crimean “referendum”:
“The so-called referendum held today was conducted with Crimea under illegal military occupation. Its results are a reflection of nothing more than Russian military control.
“This “referendum” is illegitimate, it has no legal effect, and we do not recognize its outcome. As a result of Russia's refusal to seek a path of de-escalation, we are working with our G-7 partners and other allies to coordinate additional sanctions against those responsible.
“Any solution to this crisis must respect the territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence of Ukraine as well as the constitution of Ukraine. Mr. Putin's reckless and unilateral actions will lead only to Russia's further economic and political isolation from the international community.”
- See more at: Statement by the Prime Minister of Canada on the results of the Crimean “referendum� | Prime Minister of Canada
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2014/03/16...sults-crimean-referendum#sthash.d4siZA7h.dpuf
Statement by the Prime Minister of Canada on the results of the Crimean “referendum”
Ottawa, Ontario
16 March 2014
Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement on the results of the Crimean “referendum”:
“The so-called referendum held today was conducted with Crimea under illegal military occupation. Its results are a reflection of nothing more than Russian military control.
“This “referendum” is illegitimate, it has no legal effect, and we do not recognize its outcome. As a result of Russia's refusal to seek a path of de-escalation, we are working with our G-7 partners and other allies to coordinate additional sanctions against those responsible.
“Any solution to this crisis must respect the territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence of Ukraine as well as the constitution of Ukraine. Mr. Putin's reckless and unilateral actions will lead only to Russia's further economic and political isolation from the international community.”
- See more at: Statement by the Prime Minister of Canada on the results of the Crimean “referendum� | Prime Minister of Canada
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2014/03/16...sults-crimean-referendum#sthash.d4siZA7h.dpuf
There are two Ukraine's and I would bet there are two nations within the old east block
countries. Some people don't want to give up the old ways they were used to during
the Iron Curtain days. Yes the people of Eastern Ukraine support the Russian move.
These people are not thinking as a nation they are thinking of their own personal
security in where they feel comfortable Unfortunately this will be in keeping with the
Russian plan to keep their Naval Base. It also demonstrates the allied feeling the
EAstern part of the country is experiencing. Many in Russia would like to go back to
Communism too. what they don't realize Communism never existed except in the
minds of ideology. Its the same as some believe in our western version of a simpler
time. No such thing "we are living in someone in the futures simpler time"
Communism was a dictatorship based on ideology that didn't work. Funny thing is
Capitalism doesn't work either for the broad masses of the world.
countries. Some people don't want to give up the old ways they were used to during
the Iron Curtain days. Yes the people of Eastern Ukraine support the Russian move.
These people are not thinking as a nation they are thinking of their own personal
security in where they feel comfortable Unfortunately this will be in keeping with the
Russian plan to keep their Naval Base. It also demonstrates the allied feeling the
EAstern part of the country is experiencing. Many in Russia would like to go back to
Communism too. what they don't realize Communism never existed except in the
minds of ideology. Its the same as some believe in our western version of a simpler
time. No such thing "we are living in someone in the futures simpler time"
Communism was a dictatorship based on ideology that didn't work. Funny thing is
Capitalism doesn't work either for the broad masses of the world.