Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

[iamcanadian]

The solution is to make people generally more personally responsible and more personally accountable for their own personal actions or inaction.

It is as much a crime to steal (or worst) as it is to watch someone steal (or worst) and knowingly do nothing about it when one can.

We have the laws, such as aiding and abeting a criminal or an unethical act. It is a matter of pursuing maters to final conclusions rather than trying to extinguish attention to problems and leting them fester and grow into worse problems.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

I like my American friends, but sometimes, man, you gotta shut the hell up.

I think that by allowing Americans to post in this thread we have completely lost the point. In CANADA, we are not used to having some as*hole open fire on our streets. In CANADA, we get upset to hear of an innocent 19 year old girl killed on Boxing day just for standing there. Maybe in the states crap like this is second nature, and you can say to yourself "maybe if the girl had a gun of her own, none of this would have happened". What would her having her own gun have done? Just created more chaos, more people hurt, more bullets flying? I'm sorry, but that attitude is absolute insanity. Having a gun in my closet takes my safety AWAY, not provides it. If a locked door isn't enough, it's time to move.

The two documents you have discussed over and over are American and have nothing to do with us. I don't want American rules and attitudes here. That's the last thing we friggin need.

Greta, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, there. 99.99% of Americans are as utterly horrified by the sort of thing that happened in Toronto as any Canadian could possibly be. Just because we are American does not automatically render us heartless, brainless, uncivilized, or evil, and I'll thank you to remember that. Just as being on this board has brought me to remember that not all Canadians are automatically founts of sweetness and light simply by virtue of being Canadian.

Frankly, I think BOTH sides of this discussion have some valid points (as is generally true in most discussions) and I for one would like to see some sort of a sythesis of viewpoints take place. Without each side learning something valuable from the other - in ANY discussion - all that remains is a bunch of people shouting past each other.

Summer
Moderator, American, but first and foremost - HUMAN BEING

I am pretty sure most americans ARE horrified at the shootings in TO....just as ANYONE anywhere would be. I think tho that what Greta is saying.....is that in the US this is a lot more commonplace and the reaction to such events is now conditioned to be : "another one".-ho hum .....or whatever....and a tad jaded. These events are NOT commonplace in Canada and we do NOT WANT them to become common place and nor do we want to become jaded about them as has happened in a more violent society (US)

we want to contain this kind of conduct before it becomes a plague onto itself . Crime , just like a disease can be contageous and runs in cycles. Best to abort it ASAP.

but yes, it is important to note that ALL of us are HUMAN BEINGS FIRST.......

 

[iamcanadian]

People getting away with smaller things usually leads to them getting away with ever bigger things till they can't be stopped without taking them out of circulation completely.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

Gun Control In Jamaica
by Tina Terry (c) 1998

I have personally lived through a government-instigated disarmament of the general public, and its subsequent, disastrous consequences

The open hatred and hostility which was directed at us seemed ready at any time to explode into violence, and indeed did so towards many people on many occasions, often with tragic or fatal results.

The Jamaican government decided that the only solution to this volatile situation was to declare martial law overnight, and to demand that all guns and bullets owned by anyone but the police and the military be turned into the police within 24 hours. The government decreed that anyone caught with even one bullet would be immediately, and without trial, incarcerated in what was essentially a barbed-wire enclosed concentration camp which had been speedily erected in the middle of Kingston. In true Orwellian fashion, the government referred to this camp as "the gun court."

Consequently, we all dutifully and immediately disarmed ourselves, and handed our weapons in at the nearest police station. It was either that or be sent straight to the gun court.

So there we all were - government-disarmed, sitting-duck, law-abiding citizens and expatriates. Anyone can guess what happened next: the rampant and unfettered carnage began in earnest. Robberies, kidnappings, murders, burglaries, rapes - all committed by the vast populace of still-armed criminals. Doubtless the criminals were positively ecstatic that the government had been so helpful in creating all these juicy and utterly defenseless victims for their easy prey.

Excellent post, IAmCanadian.

I have been preaching the very same argument. Once you eliminate guns from the law abiding civilian, criminals will have the upper hand as the only armed resistance they will meet will be from the police and perhaps the military (under martial law). Armed criminals from all stripes will start coming out of the woodworks.

If a society where criminals terrorize innocent folks is what you want, then I'd suggest you initiate a total handgun ban. It's guaranteed to work.

 

[zenfisher]

I could care less if you own a gun/s. They should be registered.Like a dog, a car or any number of things we register through local,state/province or federal laws. Insurance rates should also be altered to reflect the choice of owning a weapon.

The pro gun group is under the impression if you register your weapons the government will take them away. That is only true if the weapons are already banned. In which case the gun owner is pursueing criminal activity. Does the government arbitrarily take your vehicle ? Registration is completely different than removing weapons.

 

[iamcanadian]

Guns have been registered in Canada since the 30's and we have never had a gun registration problem.

What heppened with the Registry and its precurser (FAC certification) is that they made it more difficult for law abiding citizens to get guns.

They made it easier for criminals to get guns, because it began a process of prohibition and profiteering in a new comodity for illegal gun trafick.

When it was not so hard or intrysive to get legal guns and register them, people would buy and register their guns and then not use them for illegal activity. If they did then they would get caught, or not, just as easy if a registered gun owner used one today.

Making it easier for people to buy and register guns, reduces the value of illegal guns and thus reduces the flow of illegal guns which will tend to be used for criminal activities since they are not registered.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

I could care less if you own a gun/s. They should be registered.Like a dog, a car or any number of things we register through local,state/province or federal laws. Insurance rates should also be altered to reflect the choice of owning a weapon.

The pro gun group is under the impression if you register your weapons the government will take them away. That is only true if the weapons are already banned. In which case the gun owner is pursueing criminal activity. Does the government arbitrarily take your vehicle ? Registration is completely different than removing weapons.

Your argument on registering guns is a good one, Zenfisher. However, vehicle registration makes sense as driving is a privilege, not a right. Same goes for owning a dog. The right to own guns is a part of our second amendment of the US Constitution and as such we can't force gun registration in the same sense as we would for vehicles.

 

[zenfisher]

It doesn't say anything about the registration of firearms in the second amendment.

 

[Nascar_James]

Correct, it doesn't Zenfisher. However as a right, you can't start charging folks to pay fees for something that they are entitled to by law.

As driving is a privilege, if someone refuses to pay the registration fees, then tough, that person can't drive his/her vehicle.

 

[zenfisher]

You are entitled to own a home yet their are fees and taxes specifically for such rights. You are entitled to own property...such as a purebred rotweiller...but it is licenced and registered. Do I need to go on and list how many rights we pay the government for.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

You are entitled to own a home yet their are fees and taxes specifically for such rights. You are entitled to own property...such as a purebred rotweiller...but it is licenced and registered. Do I need to go on and list how many rights we pay the government for.

Taxes? I don't recall paying any taxes for homes purchased here in Oklahoma?

 

[zenfisher]

There are no property taxes in Oklahoma ? You don't require a builder's permit to build a house?

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

There are no property taxes in Oklahoma ? You don't require a builder's permit to build a house?

Sure we have yearly property taxes, however the are are zero taxes in purchasing the actual home (this is true for new homes, not sure about pre-owned homes).

 

[zenfisher]

You therefore have the right to own property...give the government money to own property and register that ownership right. How is that any different than a gun?

 

[Nascar_James]

There are two things in life which we can't escape, Zenfisher, death and taxes. There is a also substantial difference between paying taxes for your home, versus paying a registration fee for your car.

A tax on your home is a percentage based on the valuation of the home. As the value goes up, your taxes go up. A registration fee for your vehicle is a fee that you pay to the government which allows your the privilege to drive your vehicle.

Given that gun ownseship is a right within the US and not a privilege, there should be no fees whatsoever associated with owning guns.

 

[the caracal kid]

but to apply your approach nascar:

Roosevelt referred to america as having 4 freedoms:
freedom of speach
freedom of worship
freedom from want
freedom from fear

now, the freedom from fear includes the freedom from the fear of being shot. to that extent your "right" to bear arms extends only so far as it does not inhibit the next person's right to live without fear. we can see then that bearing arms is a privilage. A privilage you are granted if you play by the rules set forth by the government.

 

[athabaska]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

but to apply your approach nascar:

Roosevelt referred to america as having 4 freedoms:
freedom of speach
freedom of worship
freedom from want
freedom from fear

The man was a three term President and under his reign none of the above applied to 'Negroes', Indians, etc. The man pandered to his southern Democratic base.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

but to apply your approach nascar:

Roosevelt referred to america as having 4 freedoms:
freedom of speach
freedom of worship
freedom from want
freedom from fear

now, the freedom from fear includes the freedom from the fear of being shot. to that extent your "right" to bear arms extends only so far as it does not inhibit the next person's right to live without fear. we can see then that bearing arms is a privilage. A privilage you are granted if you play by the rules set forth by the government.

Well, for some of us the opposite it true. The "fear factor" is gone when bearing arms and there when not bearing arms.

As long as the second ammendment to the US constitution stays as it is, owning guns will remain a right, not a privilege.

 

[the caracal kid]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

The man was a three term President and under his reign none of the above applied to 'Negroes', Indians, etc. The man pandered to his southern Democratic base.

now you are getting to the true nature of america: the freedom to dominate, rob, exploit, and to advance and protect privilage.

the real reason for "right to bear arms".

and back on topic, exactly why we need to build a nation of inclusiveness and equality in order to end the violence that stems from being denied, suppressed, and used.

 

[bhoour]

Re: RE: Shooting in Downtown Toronto......Happy Boxing Day!

The man was a three term President and under his reign none of the above applied to 'Negroes', Indians, etc. The man pandered to his southern Democratic base.

now you are getting to the true nature of america: the freedom to dominate, rob, exploit, and to advance and protect privilage.

the real reason for "right to bear arms".

and back on topic, exactly why we need to build a nation of inclusiveness and equality in order to end the violence that stems from being denied, suppressed, and used.

:thumbleft:

Kid you are right on the mark!!!