Science, soul and free will

AnnaG

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In my opinion, plenty of people have posited testable hypotheses about god.

Take for interest Christianity. It says in various places in the bible, out of Jesus's mouth no less, "Ask, and you shall receive," unequivocably. I have asked. And not received. Test failed.
Good point. I read that Dexter made a challenge to this Christian god to strike him down. Well, Dexter is still dying of old age (eventually :D). Les did the same thing. He challenged this thing to show him incidents in history like the burning bush nonsense and arrange it so he could retain the memory of what he'd seen. He said if that was done he'd willingly leap with both feet into faith. Nothing resulted from that either.
People say their prayers have been answered but I bet, that what they prayed for was achieved mostly by them getting off their hinnies and doing it themselves. The rest was fluke.
But anyway, it's really comical when the little bubblehead presumes to be able to speak for science.
 

AnnaG

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[QUOTE="AnnaG, post: 1130658, member: 41030"]Sorry, but science is extremely close to explaining the origin of life on this planet.[/quote]
Commercial science will always be extremely close to explaining the origins of terrestrial life similarly they will always be extremely close to the cure for cancer and extremely close to free energy. Don't expect to hear the truth about the origins of life on this planet, it just wouldn't do to have such disturbing truths interfering with the ruling paradigm, would it? There are some very interesting artifacts out there though.
I really don't care about commercial science. The real stuff is done by sincere interest and curiosity. The commercial science is done to see what can be made from it. Eventually enough clues are revealed to form an hypothesis. Like Darwin's evolution. He was wrong in a few spots but he made the structure and it is solid.
:roll: Cancers are continually being beaten. There isn't only 1, you know. So there isn't only 1 cure.
Nothing is free, there is always compensation for everything.
And of course, when science explains the origin of life on Earth, religions will make their usual mad scramble and come up with something new in the way of explanation like "well, god made all the life offplanet and then sent meteorityes to plant the seeds of life on Earth" but that nonsense is still dodgy. So science's revelations always upset the ruling paradigms somewhere. Remember the flat earth thing? The poisonous tomatoes? The geocentric universe? Theory of evolution?
 

AnnaG

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I asked Jesus for a million dollars. He consulted Vishnu and told me, “Maybe in the next life, if you are good in this one.”

I don’t think it is worth it.
^---- lol WHOOOOSH!!
That was the sound of the point not landing anywhere near Sir Pompous.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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Almost all of that real estate is in the formed of parishes, or owned the diocese for schools, colleges or administrative purposes, or in the case of working farms, supports the order or abbey which is its titular owner. Almost none of the land its commercially utilized.

The Church's banking interests are limited to the Vatican Bank, which is a repository and dispensing institution for operational funds of the Holy See. Although it might be considered Vatican City's Central Bank, it does not issue currency. It does issue coinage, in Euro denominations, in strictly limited quantities and under treaty with the EU, and largely for collectors or as souvenirs. It is not legal tender.

The Cathars were Dualists, and diametrically opposed to all aspects of Catholic doctrine. They construed the material world, in fact all matter, as evil. They were involved in heretical, gnostic rituals, but it was almost completely suppressed by the early Middle Ages. It has reappeared in cults since then, but never in significant numbers or duration. I'm not sure where you got that, but it is decidedly Un-Christian, denying Christ as the Incarnate Son of God.

The numbers were signifigant enough to be exterminated as a direct threat to the Catholic church in their hundreds of thousands by the HRC.

www.cathar.info/
From 1208, a war of terror was waged against the indigenous population and their rulers: Raymond VI of Toulouse, Raymond-Roger Trencavel, Raymond Roger of Foix in the first generation and Raymond VII of Toulouse, Raymond Trencavel II, and Roger Bernard II of Foix in the second generation. During this period an estimated 500,000 Languedoc men women and children were massacred - Catholics as well as Cathars. The Counts of Toulouse and their allies were dispossessed and humiliated, and their lands annexed to France. Educated and tolerant Languedoc rulers were replaced by relative barbarians; Dominic Guzmán (later Saint Dominic) founded the Dominican Order and soon afterwards the Inquisition, manned by his Dominicans, was established explicitly to wipe out the last vestiges of resistance. Persecutions of Languedoc Jews and other minorities were initiated; the culture of the troubadours was lost as their cultured patrons were reduced to wandering refugees known as faidits. Their characteristic concept of "paratge", a whole sophisticated world-view, was almost destroyed, leaving us a pale imitation in our idea of chivalry. Lay learning was discouraged and the reading of the bible became a capital crime. Tithes were enforced. The Languedoc started its long economic decline to become the poorest region in France; and the language of the area, Occitan, began its descent from the foremost literary language in Europe to a regional dialect, disparaged by the French as a patois.


Would Jesus do that?
 

darkbeaver

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I really don't care about commercial science. The real stuff is done by sincere interest and curiosity. The commercial science is done to see what can be made from it. Eventually enough clues are revealed to form an hypothesis. Like Darwin's evolution. He was wrong in a few spots but he made the structure and it is solid.
:roll: Cancers are continually being beaten. There isn't only 1, you know. So there isn't only 1 cure.
Nothing is free, there is always compensation for everything.
And of course, when science explains the origin of life on Earth, religions will make their usual mad scramble and come up with something new in the way of explanation like "well, god made all the life offplanet and then sent meteorityes to plant the seeds of life on Earth" but that nonsense is still dodgy. So science's revelations always upset the ruling paradigms somewhere. Remember the flat earth thing? The poisonous tomatoes? The geocentric universe? Theory of evolution?

The real stuff? Like Tesla? Like Velikovsky? Darwin was right in a few spots you mean? What cancers are being beaten by what science?
 

AnnaG

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I guess you don't read much about medicine. Mortality rates of prostate cancer victims has dropped from about 30 mortalities per 100,000 to between 20 and 25 per 100,000. Incidents of breast cancer has dropped per capita. Face it, people are surviving cancers now that not so many years ago they would have been goners. Or do you think cancer's all being magicked away by some myth?
Velikovsky? You mean the guy that developed a wingnut hypothesis about the universe's origin based on mythologies, the Bible, and folklore? lmao Sorry, I said real science not junk science.
But, real like Pasteur, Boas, Faraday, and other people who weren't necessarily into science for the money and glory.
 
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coldstream

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The numbers were signifigant enough to be exterminated as a direct threat to the Catholic church in their hundreds of thousands by the HRC.

www.cathar.info/
From 1208, a war of terror was waged against the indigenous population and their rulers: Raymond VI of Toulouse, Raymond-Roger Trencavel, Raymond Roger of Foix in the first generation and Raymond VII of Toulouse, Raymond Trencavel II, and Roger Bernard II of Foix in the second generation. During this period an estimated 500,000 Languedoc men women and children were massacred - Catholics as well as Cathars. The Counts of Toulouse and their allies were dispossessed and humiliated, and their lands annexed to France. Educated and tolerant Languedoc rulers were replaced by relative barbarians; Dominic Guzmán (later Saint Dominic) founded the Dominican Order and soon afterwards the Inquisition, manned by his Dominicans, was established explicitly to wipe out the last vestiges of resistance. Persecutions of Languedoc Jews and other minorities were initiated; the culture of the troubadours was lost as their cultured patrons were reduced to wandering refugees known as faidits. Their characteristic concept of "paratge", a whole sophisticated world-view, was almost destroyed, leaving us a pale imitation in our idea of chivalry. Lay learning was discouraged and the reading of the bible became a capital crime. Tithes were enforced. The Languedoc started its long economic decline to become the poorest region in France; and the language of the area, Occitan, began its descent from the foremost literary language in Europe to a regional dialect, disparaged by the French as a patois.


Would Jesus do that?


None of the protagonists in the campaigns against the Cathars were clerics. They were all secular and ambitious local despots who were using religious excuses to enlarge their domains. Your post notes that Catholics as well as Cathars were massacred, the motive being removing any political opposition rather than eradicating heresy.

At the same time your noted persecutions were happening the Catholic Church was establishing the great universities of Europe, schools, hospitals, orphanages, farming cooperatives and craft guilds. It was patronizing the arts and architecture in a period of great Cathedral building, and the reestablishment of cosmopolitan cities.

The modern culture and economy of the West was established in this period, by the Catholic Church. It was under its tutelage and patronage that Europe emerged from the Dark Ages that had lasted 500 years.. of tribal conflict, disease, desperate poverty, superstition, population decline, universal illiteracy, and technological recession.

Every institution fights corruption and dissent within its ranks, as recent Church history has shown. Any benign purpose will always elicit a malignant response, which will attempt to sabotage its true purpose. That's the way of the world. It's necessary to look at the constructive program of that entity, and decide whether it represented good and evil.

Had the Cathars prevailed, in these reputedly tolerant principalities, Europe would have been a much different place than it is now. It would still be in the Dark Ages. It would look like the Middle East, racked with conflict, an economic backwater. The Rise of the West is impossible separate from the triumph of Christianity and Christian morality in the institution of the Church. There is a fundamental difference in religions that our modern relativism does not recognize. The difference is between an enlightened rationalism, and, a dark chaotic sorcery.

With the former now being systematically dismantled. With superstition replacing religion (and rational science), and moral decline, the West will fall back into the condition it was in prior to its Renaissance. And with that violence will again be rampant, with cruel War Lords ruling the land.
 
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AnnaG

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lol What is religion if not superstition with bureacracy attached?
 

Dexter Sinister

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... The Rise of the West is impossible separate from the triumph of Christianity and Christian morality in the institution of the Church...
Well, that's way off the thread topic, as most of your posts have been, but I can't let that one go by. That is some of the silliest self-serving nonsense I've ever seen, a complete misreading of the significance of the Enlightenment. More than any other single event, it was the separation of the church from the powers of the state that enabled the rise of the West. The church has resisted rationality and science and critical thinking every step of the way, and continues to do so, because they're deeply corrosive to its claims. The rise of the West to a large degree can be read as the church retreating from making claims about the nature of things in the face of the scientific revolution. You've got it completely backwards. The church has always been reactionary and repressive, and if it were given back the powers of the state it once had, we'd be living in oppressive theocracies. Religious and secular authority vested in the same people and institutions does that, because the church thinks it's absolutely right and thus has both the right and the duty to interfere in the lives of those who disagree with it.
 

SirJosephPorter

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lmao You aren't unknown but you are definitely full of nonsense. Science simply does not postulate an opinion like "meaningless" if it doesn't have any data. Don't be an idiot.


Name calling does not make you right, Anna (but then extreme right wingers like you just love to name call, they do have a thin skin). In fact, name calling tells me beyond any doubt that you are losing the argument. If you think by becoming a gutter mouth you prove your point, you are seriously mistaken. It only tells me you are losing your temper.

Science regards religion as superstition and nothing more. There is nothing unknown about God, according to science, the concept is meaningless, nonsense. Similar to astrology or Tarot cards.

Now may be a right winger like you has different understanding of science (but then I can make a shrewd guess, you don’t’ have scientific training, did you even understand what I said a while back about integral of √sinx?). If anything involves supernatural, fictional explanation (like God or Devil), the concept is meaningless as far a science is concerned.

But then maybe extreme right wing science is different (do they teach different science in Alberta?). You may want to visit the Creation Research institute website, you will just love them. The feel the same way as you do about God.

The Institute for Creation Research
 

SirJosephPorter

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With superstition replacing religion (and rational science), and moral decline, the West will fall back into the condition it was in prior to its Renaissance.

Coldstream, replace religion by superstition? I thought religion was superstition. As to superstition replacing rational science, that will never happen, except maybe in the Bible Belt of USA.

The condition prior to Renaissance was caused by religion, when religion ruled with an iron fist. I think we are moving into post Christian era, where every viewpoint is treated with respect, but none are sponsored by the state.
 

SirJosephPorter

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The church has always been reactionary and repressive, and if it were given back the powers of the state it once had, we'd be living in oppressive theocracies.

Dexter, I think Darwin put the final nail in the coffin of Church’s power. At one time Church controlled science, that ended with Galileo. Although Church forced Galileo to recant, other scientists after Galileo were emboldened by it, and scientists like Copernicus could boldly proclaim the heliocentric universe.

Science also took the power away from church when it came to explaining phenomena like lightening. Before scientists discovered what lightening was about, it was official Church’s position that lightening is caused by the wrath of God.

However, even after that, Church could still proclaim that man has a special place in the universe, that man was created by God. Darwin put a stop to that, he explained how man came to be, without the help of God.

That really marked the beginning of end of Church’s stranglehold on power. In USA Fundamentalist Church is trying to grab power, we will see how that works out (they won’t get anywhere with Obama in power).
 

AnnaG

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Name calling does not make you right, Anna (but then extreme right wingers like you just love to name call, they do have a thin skin). In fact, name calling tells me beyond any doubt that you are losing the argument. If you think by becoming a gutter mouth you prove your point, you are seriously mistaken. It only tells me you are losing your temper.
What name did I call you? lol Gutter mouth? I suggested that you shouldn't be an idiot. lmao You can't touch my temper anymore, you poor little man.

Science regards religion as superstition and nothing more. There is nothing unknown about God, according to science, the concept is meaningless, nonsense. Similar to astrology or Tarot cards.
You're wrong, as usual.

Now may be a right winger like you has different understanding of science (but then I can make a shrewd guess, you don’t’ have scientific training, did you even understand what I said a while back about integral of √sinx?).
Didn't pay any attention. Besides, my science doesn't require a hig degree of calculus.
If anything involves supernatural, fictional explanation (like God or Devil), the concept is meaningless as far a science is concerned.
lol You're hilarious. What have you got, a degree in Know-it-all from the Clown's College of Narcissism?

But then maybe extreme right wing science is different (do they teach different science in Alberta?). You may want to visit the Creation Research institute website, you will just love them. The feel the same way as you do about God.

The Institute for Creation Research
lol You're a funny little fellow.
Is that where you graduated from?

I guess you haven't noticed that my profile says "BC". But I am not surprised. You are too in love with yourself to notice anything about anyone else.

This article might help you with your personality problem:

A Field Guide To Narcissism | Psychology Today
 

SirJosephPorter

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Didn't pay any attention. Besides, my science doesn't require a hig degree of calculus.

So I was right Anna, you don’t have a scientific training. No wonder you can speak so authoritatively about science.

You're wrong, as usual.

That is your opinion, as usual.

Anyway, I must congratulate you, you went at least one post without being a gutter mouth. Just shows you can do it if you try. Right wingers in general do have a problem keeping their temper in check.

As to you being from BC, sorry about that, I assumed you were from Alberta. You certainty show similar prejudices as a right winger from the Bible Belt of Alberta (even though you claim not to be religious).
 
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SirJosephPorter

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A Field Guide To Narcissism | Psychology Today

And just what is wrong with Narcissism? Anyway, I know I have a big ego, that is not news to me. That is why I never lose my temper, nobody can touch me. I cause others (like you) to lose their temper, I don’t lose my temper.

Anyway, I don’t’ want to turn this into a flaming thread. If you want to discuss the subject without name calling, without being a gutter mouth, I am game. Otherwise I wont’ respond to your posts any more in this thread.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
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People often get believe the soul and spirit are one in the same, but that's not true. Man is three parts: body, spirit and soul.

Your body, although a marvelous creation, is the lowest part.

Your spirit, people often refer to it as there spirit i.e. "I know in my heart...", is the highest part of you. It lives forever, either with God or without. Its how you communicate with God. Your spirit, with God's anointing, can overcome any obstacle either natural or supernatural.

Your soul is the most interesting. It's your free will - the crucial part of your individuality. And its this will which determines whether its the spirit, the body, or even itself is to rule. in view of the fact that the soul is the organ of man's individuality, you can understand why the bible calls man "a living soul".

In summary, man is three parts body, spirit and soul. The soul lies in between your body and your spirit, ruling over both.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Your soul is the most interesting. It's your free will - the crucial part of your individuality.

That is a rather strange definition of soul, Alley. So when you die, your ‘free will’ will go to Heaven? So anyway, what happens to your spirit after you die? Does that also go to Heaven, along with your soul?
 

AnnaG

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Didn't pay any attention. Besides, my science doesn't require a hig degree of calculus.

So I was right Anna, you don’t have a scientific training. No wonder you can speak so authoritatively about science.
Leaping to assumptions again. Not all sciences use calculus to a large extent, Sir Potty.
And you sure supported my impression you have no scientific training. Perhaps a rudimentary idea of calculus but any high-school student has that.

You're wrong, as usual.
That is your opinion, as usual.

Anyway, I must congratulate you, you went at least one post without being a gutter mouth. Just shows you can do it if you try. Right wingerz in general do have a problem keeping their temper in check.
Don't give yourself too much credit on my account. You haven't made me angry more than once. And you'll fail if you ever try it again.

As to you being from BC, sorry about that, I assumed you were from Alberta. You certainty show similar prejudices as a right winger from the Bible Belt of Alberta (even though you claim not to be religious).
No worries. I see you make loads of sillier assumptions.
 
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AnnaG

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A Field Guide To Narcissism | Psychology Today

And just what is wrong with Narcissism? Anyway, I know I have a big ego, that is not news to me. That is why I never lose my temper, nobody can touch me. I cause others (like you) to lose their temper, I don’t lose my temper.
Sorry. I haven't lost my temper. And if you can't fathom what is wrong with narcissism, you need more help that I can give you. It's a psychoses. A personality disorder. Do you understand? I guess not.

Anyway, I don’t’ want to turn this into a flaming thread. If you want to discuss the subject without name calling, without being a gutter mouth, I am game. Otherwise I wont’ respond to your posts any more in this thread.
What name did I call you?
 

SirJosephPorter

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Leaping to assumptions again. Not all sciences use calculus to a large extent,

Perhaps not Anna. But all sciences require a certain basic training in calculus, and integral of √sinx is part of the basic training. Almost any scientist worth his salt (irrespective of his scientific discipline) would know what I am talking about.

Anyway, so which science did you study? What is this marvelous branch of science that does not require any training in mathematics?