'Russia is fighting a war with us': Georgian president

[dancing-loon]

I spent some time looking at the photo's of the spent hulls of the military machines in the media today. Some of it is very difficult to tell what it was but I did see some old US Armored Troop Carriers in a good shot. So, the presence of US trainers tells me we have our nose right in there and will try to keep it there too. I did hear that the US wants to take charge of the Georgian seaports. This could pose a problem for the US forces committed to other endeavors. They are stretched too thin now and maybe we're getting ready to bite off more than we can chew. Again, oil must figure prominently into this equation.

Hi, Norm;
it looks very much like you saw and concluded right! Here is an article from July 16th, 2008:

US troops train in Georgia amid tensions

US troops yesterday began a military training exercise in Georgia amid growing friction between Russia and the strategically important western ally in the volatile Caucasus region.

The joint war games - which will include 1,000 US troops, 600 Georgian forces and smaller numbers from Ukraine, Armenia and Azerbaijan - come one week after Russian fighter aircraft invaded Georgian airspace "to cool hot heads in Tbilisi".
But a US commander insisted the two-week exercise was planned months in advance and was not linked with a standoff over control of two Georgian breakaway regions - Moscow-backed Abkhazia and South Ossetia - and Tbilisi's Nato membership bid.

Georgia recalled its ambassador to Moscow in response to last week's incident.

The exercise, called "Immediate Response 2008", is taking place at the Vaziani military base, which was a Russian air force base until the start of this decade.

Tbilisi and the Pentagon co-operate closely. Georgia has a contingent supporting the US-led coalition in Iraq and Washington provides training and equipment to the Georgian military.

Full article here: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f9742ec6-5...nclick_check=1

 

[normbc9]

Dancing Loon,
Thanks for this. If it was conducted I wonder how much good the training did for the Georgians? I'll bet their troop contingent in Iraq was also part of a US funded training exercise too. From the way the media is portraying this event the Russians may sign any thing but you can also expect them to do anything too. Unannounced as well. Their military machine that was shown in total disarray several years ago is now rebuilding using the oil monies they take in daily which was all put together by international industriasts who just couldn't wait to get their hands on the Russian oil. Well the oil is flowing, the monies are being used to rebuild and recover and here comes a rejuvenated military machine too.

 

[normbc9]

It is Monday August 18, 2008 at 2:30 pm PST

 

[normbc9]

It is Monday August 18, 2008 at 2:30 pm PST and in spite of all the signed agreements it looks like Ivan plans to stay in Georgia. The Russians have even

 

[normbc9]

It is Monday August 18, 2008 at 2:30 pm PST and in spite of all the signed agreements it looks like Ivan plans to stay in Georgia. The Russians have even offered to send a group of "Spe ciaists" to help South Ossetia form it's own government.

 

[normbc9]

It is Monday August 18, 2008 at 2:35 PM PST and in spite of all the cease fire documents signed and verbal agreements made it looks like Ivan plans to stay a while yet. Te Russians have even offered to send a group of "specialists" to help South ossetia form its own independent government using Russian Advisors. The term Advisor has a familar Vietnam era tone to it too.

 

[dancing-loon]

What's the matter with you, Norm??? Got the hiccups??;-)

Anyway, today is Wednesday, August 20th, 2008,:smile: and I just found the following article in the New York Times, and am flabbergasted! I can hardly believe my eyes to read a piece of journalistic truth in an American newspaper:

Russia Never Wanted a War
By MIKHAIL GORBACHEV Published: August 19, 2008

THE acute phase of the crisis provoked by the Georgian forces’ assault on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, is now behind us. But how can one erase from memory the horrifying scenes of the nighttime rocket attack on a peaceful town, the razing of entire city blocks, the deaths of people taking cover in basements, the destruction of ancient monuments and ancestral graves?

Russia did not want this crisis. The Russian leadership is in a strong enough position domestically; it did not need a little victorious war. Russia was dragged into the fray by the recklessness of the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili. He would not have dared to attack without outside support. Once he did, Russia could not afford inaction.

The decision by the Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev, to now cease hostilities was the right move by a responsible leader. The Russian president acted calmly, confidently and firmly. Anyone who expected confusion in Moscow was disappointed.
Has this ever happened before... a major American newspaper praising the Kremlin?

The planners of this campaign clearly wanted to make sure that, whatever the outcome, Russia would be blamed for worsening the situation. The West then mounted a propaganda attack against Russia, with the American news media leading the way.
What is going on in New York? This is revolutionary! I can't trust this! It's got to be some kind of trick with a purpose!
And it keeps going on! Read further...

The news coverage has been far from fair and balanced, especially during the first days of the crisis. Tskhinvali was in smoking ruins and thousands of people were fleeing — before any Russian troops arrived. Yet Russia was already being accused of aggression; news reports were often an embarrassing recitation of the Georgian leader’s deceptive statements.

It is still not quite clear whether the West was aware of Mr. Saakashvili’s plans to invade South Ossetia, and this is a serious matter. What is clear is that Western assistance in training Georgian troops and shipping large supplies of arms had been pushing the region toward war rather than peace.

If this military misadventure was a surprise for the Georgian leader’s foreign patrons, so much the worse. It looks like a classic wag-the-dog story.

Mr. Saakashvili had been lavished with praise for being a staunch American ally and a real democrat — and for helping out in Iraq. Now America’s friend has wrought disorder, and all of us — the Europeans and, most important, the region’s innocent civilians — must pick up the pieces.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/opinion/20gorbachev.html?em
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article could come from Global Research.ca, but not from a mainstream US paper!
Does anyone of you find this strange and suspicious, too?

Of course, the article is right on the truth. I agree without hesitation. Gorbachev must have some credibility and favor in America.

 

[dancing-loon]

The above article goes on.... I really want you to read it that's why I'm posting the full length. I now think the New York Times simply couldn't afford refusing to print Gorbachov's opinion on the Georgian crisis.

Continuation:
"Those who rush to judgment on what’s happening in the Caucasus, or those who seek influence there, should first have at least some idea of this region’s complexities. The Ossetians live both in Georgia and in Russia. The region is a patchwork of ethnic groups living in close proximity. Therefore, all talk of “this is our land,” “we are liberating our land,” is meaningless. We must think about the people who live on the land. The problems of the Caucasus region cannot be solved by force. That has been tried more than once in the past two decades, and it has always boomeranged.

What is needed is a legally binding agreement not to use force. Mr. Saakashvili has repeatedly refused to sign such an agreement, for reasons that have now become abundantly clear.

The West would be wise to help achieve such an agreement now. If, instead, it chooses to blame Russia and re-arm Georgia, as American officials are suggesting, a new crisis will be inevitable. In that case, expect the worst.

In recent days, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and President Bush have been promising to isolate Russia. Some American politicians have threatened to expel it from the Group of 8NATO-Russia Council and to keep Russia out of the World Trade Organization.

These are empty threats. For some time now, Russians have been wondering: If our opinion counts for nothing in those institutions, do we really need them? Just to sit at the nicely set dinner table and listen to lectures?

Indeed, Russia has long been told to simply accept the facts. Here’s the independence of Kosovo for you. Here’s the abrogation of the Antiballistic Missile Treaty, and the American decision to place missile defenses in neighboring countries. Here’s the unending expansion of NATO. All of these moves have been set against the backdrop of sweet talk about partnership. Why would anyone put up with such a charade?

There is much talk now in the United States about rethinking relations with Russia. One thing that should definitely be rethought: the habit of talking to Russia in a condescending way, without regard for its positions and interests.
Our two countries could develop a serious agenda for genuine, rather than token, cooperation. Many Americans, as well as Russians, understand the need for this. But is the same true of the political leaders?

A bipartisan commission led by Senator Chuck Hagel and former Senator Gary Hart has recently been established at Harvard to report on American-Russian relations to Congress and the next president. It includes serious people, and, judging by the commission’s early statements, its members understand the importance of Russia and the importance of constructive bilateral relations.

But the members of this commission should be careful. Their mandate is to present “policy recommendations for a new administration to advance America’s national interests in relations with Russia.” If that alone is the goal, then I doubt that much good will come out of it. If, however, the commission is ready to also consider the interests of the other side and of common security, it may actually help rebuild trust between Russia and the United States and allow them to start doing useful work together."

Mikhail Gorbachev is the former president of the Soviet Union. This article was translated by Pavel Palazhchenko from the Russian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/opinion/20gorbachev.html?em

 

[mabudon]

Most interesting, I suppose there's a bunch of folks who will call for the execution of whoever wrote that piece.

I wonder how much you can take your cerdibility into the negative numbers- looks like we're gonna find out

 

[lone wolf]

It looks like the United States has enjoyed being the tough kid on the block while the other big guy was off at summer camp. Power, eh?... It's so corrosive. Are Uncle Sam's intentions going to lead into wisdom ... or war?

 

[EagleSmack]

I meant to read through the entire thread, but the "noodles on the ears" thing...funny stuff there...

Don't worry about those Russian Flags on the sea floor either...

Flags on the sea floor... 8 Russian Bombers violating Canadian airspace... nope nothing to worry about here...nothing to see here...keep looking south to the evil empire! :lol:

 

[EagleSmack]

It looks like the United States has enjoyed being the tough kid on the block while the other big guy was off at summer camp. Power, eh?... It's so corrosive. Are Uncle Sam's intentions going to lead into wisdom ... or war?

Time will tell. I think it is just politicking... them dogging us for Iraq and now we're dogging them for Georgia. Now the Ruskies are fighting in Chechnya and Georgia.

 

[Lester]

<sigh> This planet will never evolve as long as these fools in the US AND Russia have anything to say about it. I can understand why Russia is ticked off, they have an axe to grind- they lost That cold war in the eighties and Nato keeps pushing them, squeezing them into a corner. The US is ticked because Russia uses energy as a bullying tactic to keep countries within their sphere of influence in line(Ukraine) They should call this war the tit for tat war.

 

[EagleSmack]

What's the matter with you, Norm??? Got the hiccups??;-)

Anyway, today is Wednesday, August 20th, 2008,:smile: and I just found the following article in the New York Times, and am flabbergasted! I can hardly believe my eyes to read a piece of journalistic truth in an American newspaper:

Russia Never Wanted a War
By MIKHAIL GORBACHEV Published: August 19, 2008

THE acute phase of the crisis provoked by the Georgian forces’ assault on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, is now behind us. But how can one erase from memory the horrifying scenes of the nighttime rocket attack on a peaceful town, the razing of entire city blocks, the deaths of people taking cover in basements, the destruction of ancient monuments and ancestral graves?

Russia did not want this crisis. The Russian leadership is in a strong enough position domestically; it did not need a little victorious war. Russia was dragged into the fray by the recklessness of the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili. He would not have dared to attack without outside support. Once he did, Russia could not afford inaction.

The decision by the Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev, to now cease hostilities was the right move by a responsible leader. The Russian president acted calmly, confidently and firmly. Anyone who expected confusion in Moscow was disappointed.
Has this ever happened before... a major American newspaper praising the Kremlin?

The planners of this campaign clearly wanted to make sure that, whatever the outcome, Russia would be blamed for worsening the situation. The West then mounted a propaganda attack against Russia, with the American news media leading the way.
What is going on in New York? This is revolutionary! I can't trust this! It's got to be some kind of trick with a purpose!
And it keeps going on! Read further...

The news coverage has been far from fair and balanced, especially during the first days of the crisis. Tskhinvali was in smoking ruins and thousands of people were fleeing — before any Russian troops arrived. Yet Russia was already being accused of aggression; news reports were often an embarrassing recitation of the Georgian leader’s deceptive statements.

It is still not quite clear whether the West was aware of Mr. Saakashvili’s plans to invade South Ossetia, and this is a serious matter. What is clear is that Western assistance in training Georgian troops and shipping large supplies of arms had been pushing the region toward war rather than peace.

If this military misadventure was a surprise for the Georgian leader’s foreign patrons, so much the worse. It looks like a classic wag-the-dog story.

Mr. Saakashvili had been lavished with praise for being a staunch American ally and a real democrat — and for helping out in Iraq. Now America’s friend has wrought disorder, and all of us — the Europeans and, most important, the region’s innocent civilians — must pick up the pieces.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/opinion/20gorbachev.html?em
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article could come from Global Research.ca, but not from a mainstream US paper!
Does anyone of you find this strange and suspicious, too?

Of course, the article is right on the truth. I agree without hesitation. Gorbachev must have some credibility and favor in America.

SUUUUUURE. Talk about a Tonkin Gulf Incident!

"They started it! We had to defend ourselves!"

A former Soviet Commie talking about Western Propaganda. Isn't that sweet.

Meanwhile they are sending bombers into Canada's airspace and laying flags on the sea floor claimed by Canada. Hey...maybe Gorby will be writing an article about how Canada started something in the Artic.

Heck...I'll believe him!

Better look out Canada and start watching your back door! :lol:

 

[lone wolf]

SUUUUUURE. Talk about a Tonkin Gulf Incident!

"They started it! We had to defend ourselves!"

A former Soviet Commie talking about Western Propaganda. Isn't that sweet.

Meanwhile they are sending bombers into Canada's airspace and laying flags on the sea floor claimed by Canada.

Eag ... Why do you keep yip-clipping about Canada having a claim where Russia planted it's flag? It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to speak of things you don't know. Are you wise enough to click on GOOGLE and find out where the North Pole is? It's INTERNATIONAL WATER!

Hey...maybe Gorby will be writing an article about how Canada started something in the Artic.

Heck...I'll believe him!

Better look out Canada and start watching your back door! :lol:

Woof!

 

[Zzarchov]

Well its obviously not International waters if Russia owns it now is it

 

[lone wolf]

Well its obviously not International waters if Russia owns it now is it

For Russia to have a serious claim, they would have to prove that Lomonosov Ridge is part of their continental shelf. Then, there would have to be a territorial landmass from which to establish a base line. Denmark has a better chance. The nearest land is over 400 miles away - Greenland. Even that is stretching a 200 mile limit (economic zone) just a bit....

USA likes to make bluster about that flag because it created a useful smoke screen. They want free and unimpeded transit over the top of North America. Through the Arctic Archipelligo, Northwest Passage clearly is Canadian territorial water. Watch our back door? Good intel ... but it's they who bear watching.

 

[EagleSmack]

For Russia to have a serious claim, they would have to prove that Lomonosov Ridge is part of their continental shelf. Then, there would have to be a territorial landmass from which to establish a base line. Denmark has a better chance. The nearest land is over 400 miles away - Greenland. Even that is stretching a 200 mile limit (economic zone) just a bit....

Might makes right too.

USA likes to make bluster about that flag because it created a useful smoke screen. They want free and unimpeded transit over the top of North America. Through the Arctic Archipelligo, Northwest Passage clearly is Canadian territorial water. Watch our back door? Good intel ... but it's they who bear watching.

I like to make bluster about it because some Canadians think they are so respected and admired. Then the Ruskies drop a flag on their claim as a challenge. They worry too much about the US. I do not think you need to watch us as we aren't laying claim. We are watching them as always but they are the ones flexing muscle in the Artic...not us. Just as one Canadian pointed out here...the Russians recently flew 8 bombers into Canadian Artic airspace so I suppose the Russians aren't as clear as you might like them to be.

 

[lone wolf]

Might makes right too.



I like to make bluster about it because some Canadians think they are so respected and admired. Then the Ruskies drop a flag on their claim as a challenge. They worry too much about the US. I do not think you need to watch us as we aren't laying claim. We are watching them as always but they are the ones flexing muscle in the Artic...not us. Just as one Canadian pointed out here...the Russians recently flew 8 bombers into Canadian Artic airspace so I suppose the Russians aren't as clear as you might like them to be.

Actually, those "8 bombers" - Bears, to be precise - flew just at the edge of Canadian airspace. There were 12 along Alaska too. Ivan's just letting us know He's back ... and we said hello. I suspect the Russian flag was like an Illukshuk - meaning "Kilroy was Here". Really, I don't suppose it's so much worry over Uncle Sam laying any claim as much as it is fretting over them dumping garbage and spilling stuff. Have you ever watched American tourists? What terrible litterbugs!

 

[EagleSmack]

Russians plant flag on North Pole seabed


CanWest News Service

Published: Friday, August 03, 2007
Two Russian mini-subs successfully descended more than four kilometres to the North Pole seabed early Thursday, a flag-planting feat hailed by expedition leaders as an historic achievement akin to the first moon landing, but mocked in Canada by Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay as "just a show" of Russian bravado and "no threat to Canadian sovereignty."
In fact, MacKay appeared to be confused Thursday about the legal status of the North Pole, which he bluntly described at one point as "Canadian property."
The pole's waters are, in fact, "high seas" beyond any one nation's jurisdiction, and its seafloor is part of a huge Arctic area that the five polar countries -- Canada, Russia, the U.S., Norway and Denmark (which governs Greenland) -- are competing for under UN Law of the Sea protocols for possible ownership and potentially lucrative petroleum rights.


Yet Russia's dive is widely seen as a symbol of its determination to eventually claim an Ontario-sized swath of the Arctic Ocean floor -- and control what may be vast reserves of oil and gas.
Expert observers in this country say the apparent ease with which the Russians reached the North Pole and carried out such a descent is a clear indication of just how far behind Canada is in being able to assert its own territorial claims in the Arctic.
MacKay, in a televised interview just hours after the Russian announcement, said: "This isn't the 15th century. You can't go around the world and just plant flags and say, 'We're claiming this territory.'
"There is no threat to Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic ... we're not at all concerned about this mission -- basically it's just a show by Russia," he said.
But MacKay may have inadvertently contradicted decades of international polar law on Thursday, saying the entire Arctic, including the waters and subsea territory around the North Pole, are Canadian "property."
"The question of sovereignty of the Arctic is not a question," he said speaking in French. "It's clear. It's our country. It's our property. It's our water ... The Arctic is Canadian."
The area around the North Pole is considered international territory. Canada has historically only claimed sovereignty over the continental shelf, as it extends 200 miles northward from Canada's Arctic archipelago.
Russia's flag-planting mission follows a claim made by its scientists last month that the Lomonosov Ridge -- an underwater mountain chain that runs across the Arctic Ocean between Russia and Canada -- is geologically linked to Russia, giving it ownership of a sprawling, resource-rich area of the polar seafloor under a UN convention governing undersea territorial claims.
Billions of dollars in oil and gas deposits are believed to lie beneath the Arctic seabed, and all five nations with Arctic coastlines -- Canada, Russia, the U.S., Norway and Denmark, which governs Greenland -- are angling to secure subsurface rights in the region.

If that is what you want to believe then...you are entitled! However the Russians and some of your politicians think otherwise.