Rebirth Through Baptism

[cj44]

Grace comes to different people in different ways. Not everyone is the same and the spirit moves in mysterious ways. Nobody has a handle on the truth, Nobody knows the will of the Great Spirit, the Great Mystery. Anybody who thinks they do is delusional at best.

My dear Cliffy, I beg to differ. There is One and only One. The gate is narrow.

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

" For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account"

Cliffy, I tell you what I see. I see the Word of God pursuing people. God himself is after you. He is chasing you, for I am certain. I see on these forums the Holy Spirit has gone out and proclaimed His Word of Truth. I hope He catches you. Then you will find yourself speechless. Which in itself will be rather miraculous.

 

[Motar]

In what are Christ and Christians immersed?

"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, 'I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?' Jesus replied, 'Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.' Then John consented." (Matthew 3:13-15 NIV)

In this passage of Scripture, we witness the baptism of Christ. Jesus identifies with humanity through his water immersion. John's water baptism of repentance finds its origins in the Jewish ceremonial laws of the Old Testament:

"In the book of Leviticus, God instructs Jews to cleanse themselves from ritual impurities, contracted through such acts as touching a corpse or a leper. Washing primarily fulfilled the legal requirements of ritual purity so that Jews could sacrifice at the Temple." What is the pre-Christian history of the baptismal ceremony? | Christian History

"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' (Matthew 3:16-17 NIV)

In this same account, Jesus is verified as God in his immersion in the Spirit of God. In this way, Jesus is recognized as both God and man. He is confirmed as Christ, the bridge between God and mankind.

I have been told repeatedly that my baptism means nothing and for me to be "saved" I need to be baptized again. The same with all my kids. If we are not, then we will be going to hell along with all the other Catholics. Is this what YOU believe?

Not at all, Gerry. Please realize that you have been condemned repeatedly by individuals without the insight, authority or means to condemn you. Extricate yourself. Take hold of the Vine:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." (John 15:1-8 NIV)

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, I tell you what I see. I see the Word of God pursuing people. God himself is after you. He is chasing you, for I am certain. I see on these forums the Holy Spirit has gone out and proclaimed His Word of Truth. I hope He catches you. Then you will find yourself speechless. Which in itself will be rather miraculous.

It is too bad that you have decided to put on blinders to greater possibilities. I am sad that you do not respect the path of others. You think you have found truth and that it is the only one. You have closed your heart and mind. I pray for your redemption from your stifling beliefs and self righteousness.

 

[cj44]

It is too bad that you have decided to put on blinders to greater possibilities. I am sad that you do not respect the path of others. You think you have found truth and that it is the only one. You have closed your heart and mind. I pray for your redemption from your stifling beliefs and self righteousness.

I respect you more than your path. Though you find me a self righteous bumbler, I do only hope the best for you.

 

[Motar]

In what are Christ and Christians immersed? How does this immersion contribute to rebirth?

"Then John gave this testimony: 'I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.” (John 1:32-33 NIV)

Christ immerses (baptizes) with the Holy Spirit. He does so by his presence, his message and his example. Those who believe, heed and follow are immersed (baptized) in the Spirit.

"Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritgives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8 NIV)

This immersion (baptism) in the Spirit is experienced through Christ by faith. The result is spiritual regeneration (rebirth).

 

[coldstream]

Ahhh, faith; the tool with which all your ifs, maybes, and other fabrications of the imagination are assembled into what you refer to as "ultimate reality". lol If I can think of it, it must be real. Priceless!

The older i get the Christianity separates itself in its perfection against all other codes.. especially the impoverished codices of atheism. Its uniqueness and completeness alone encompasses the full potential of Creation. It becomes, with some reflection, a theological necessity that fully resolves all of the spiritual and material questions of faith.

 

[cj44]

The older i get the Christianity separates itself in its perfection against all other codes.. especially the impoverished codices of atheism. Its uniqueness and completeness alone encompasses the full potential of Creation. It becomes, with some reflection, a theological necessity that fully resolves all of the spiritual and material questions of faith.

Coldstream, your eloquence and exceptional insight is appreciated. Quite fantastically stated.

 

[Spade]

Look, pour yourselves a port, and enjoy some non theistic wisdom.
Beyond Theism -- John Shelby Spong - YouTube

 

[Motar]

The older i get the Christianity separates itself in its perfection against all other codes.. especially the impoverished codices of atheism. Its uniqueness and completeness alone encompasses the full potential of Creation. It becomes, with some reflection, a theological necessity that fully resolves all of the spiritual and material questions of faith.

Other codes = assumed/presumed righteousness through works
Christianity = imputed righteousness (by grace through faith) which facilitates works

 

[Spade]

Grasshoppers, our only salvation is through works.

 

[The Old Medic]

Those that do not understand, will likely never understand. Those who hate Catholics, because of their ignorance and prejudice, will not see anything positive in just about anything that the Church does.

You may as well be speaking Classical Greek to a person that only speaks Urdu.

 

[Spade]

Those who present the Church (genuflect here) as being of one mind are just deaf to Urdu.

RICHARD DAWKINS: Is The Bible Still Relevant Today - [THE BIG QUESTIONS] - YouTube

 

[cj44]

Grasshoppers, our only salvation is through works.

Spade - you just put a pitchfork through my heart.

Our works are equal to a heap of dung.

Those that do not understand, will likely never understand. Those who hate Catholics, because of their ignorance and prejudice, will not see anything positive in just about anything that the Church does.

You may as well be speaking Classical Greek to a person that only speaks Urdu.

For the record, I do not hate Catholics.

 

[Spade]

Spade - you just put a pitchfork through my heart.

Our works are equal to a heap of dung.

I use arrows; angels use arrows. Devils use pitchforks. Heavenly hosts (Gawd's armies) fight devilish pseudoscience.
I see you are as polytheistic as ever! You are progressing slowly.

Works save; idle faith gains nothing.

For the record, I do not hate Catholics.

Do you condider them Christians, no worse than you? Yes or no?
I don't hate chipmunks either, but I wouldn't want a son or daugher to marry one.

 

[darkbeaver]

I respect you more than your path. Though you find me a self righteous bumbler, I do only hope the best for you.

He already explained what was best for him and you corrected him.

 

[cj44]

He already explained what was best for him and you corrected him.

Spade, What is this whackery you speak?
I believe there to be Christians and non-Christians in every Christian denomination. Being a particular denomination does not make one a Christian.

As for the polytheism, let me first pull myself up from the floor. Not polytheistic.

He already explained what was best for him and you corrected him.

We only know what is best for us until grace comes. Then we see our desperate plight.

 

[darkbeaver]

The older i get the Christianity separates itself in its perfection against all other codes.. especially the impoverished codices of atheism. Its uniqueness and completeness alone encompasses the full potential of Creation. It becomes, with some reflection, a theological necessity that fully resolves all of the spiritual and material questions of faith.

The foundations of creation are not moored in faith they are spiked to the cleft in the rock of truth.

 

[Spade]

Spade, What is this whackery you speak?
I believe there to be Christians and non-Christians in every Christian denomination. Being a particular denomination does not make one a Christian.

As for the polytheism, let me first pull myself up from the floor. Not polytheistic.


We only know what is best for us until grace comes. Then we see our desperate plight.

So Bapitists are not necessarily Christian?

Gawd has a son? Or, is the son his own father? Was the "Our Father" a prayer to himself? Angels? Devils? Sounds like a pantheon to me.

Baal is in the Bible. Asherah is in the Bible. The sons of gods are in the bible. So, the Bible is not always the unerrant word?

 

[darkbeaver]

Spade, What is this whackery you speak?
I believe there to be Christians and non-Christians in every Christian denomination. Being a particular denomination does not make one a Christian.

As for the polytheism, let me first pull myself up from the floor. Not polytheistic.


We only know what is best for us until grace comes. Then we see our desperate plight.

You are conceived by a fusion event between semen and an egg the ignition device is a tiny spark of plasma from his holiness Old Sol, you are not an result of faith you are a result of demonstratable quantifiable work. Grace not born of wisdom is not grace it's faith. The Egyptians knew the power of Christ before a christian church was ever dreamed of.

 

[Motar]

Like I said, you don't agree with infant baptism yet you quote the spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Church which practices infant baptisms. Why is that?

My intention in the OP was to introduce the subject of baptism as it relates to rebirth, Gerry. In my discussion posts, some of the etymological, historical and biblical contexts of spiritual immersion (believer's baptism) and rebirth were explored.

I chose the news article concerning Pope Francis' message on baptism because of is timeliness and relevance. I had no intention of discussing infant baptism because I feel that it is another subject entirely. Infant baptism/consecration/dedication/presentation may all derive from biblical origins such as these:

"You must give me the firstborn of your sons." (Exodus 22:29b NIV)
"So now I give him to the Lord. For his whole life he will be given over to the Lord.'" (1 Samuel 1:28a NIV)
"When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him (Jesus) to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord..." (Luke 2:22 NIV)

The sprinkling of water, application of anointing oil or any other ceremonial act does not impact the infant's nature in any way. But the public declaration by the parents and the faith community to provide a godly environment for the child may enhance the child's spiritual nurturing and outcome.