Quebec town rocked by explosions, fire after oil train derailment

[captain morgan]

Probably about 60 people dead in a horrific accident and you want to make a point about "Greenie Weenies"?

Transporting oil by rail is pretty much a recent practice. It has grown on the heels of the kick-back against pipelines.

The events in Quebec are tragic (to put it mildly), however, the question that remains is how many more accidents like this should we be prepared to accept before a safer alternative is accepted.

 

[JLM]

Transporting oil by rail is pretty much a recent practice. It has grown on the heels of the kick-back against pipelines.

The events in Quebec are tragic (to put it mildly), however, the question that remains is how many more accidents like this should we be prepared to accept before a safer alternative is accepted.

This could be the worse rail disaster in 130 years of railroading in Canada. (I'm not sure how many were killed in the troop train collision at Red Pass Jct. in the 1950s) Anyway it will probably be many years before we see another one even close to as tragic as this one.

 

[captain morgan]

Keep up the practice of transporting crude by rail and you can expect to be reading about more events related to environmental accidents and possibly disasters like the one in Quebec.

That said, I am following this issue closely - crude oil is not easily flammable and certainly not explosive... There must have been a very unique set of circumstances like hauling propane and/or colliding with a high voltage transformer to have caused such a large explosion.

 

[Highball]

I see where the CEO of this railway is now stating they "believe" the engineer who had parked the train as directed was supposed to set the wheel brakes on every tank car and now there is belief this was not accomplished correctly. If this is really true visual signs of this would be almost instantly visible. Now trhis is being followed up by the Provincial Police.

 

[El Barto]

My father being raised in the village I am now, along that same railway said he remembered the train when it was a steam engine. It was clocked travelling at a hundred miles an hour. But back then he was saying there were four to five rail workers between village working daily. Now , ever since the rail was let go by CP rail and bought by MMA it was said , probably in anger that there were about 5 people for 100 km of tracks.

What happened in Megantic is not really related safe for the material and machines being second hand and repaired with used material. A derailment is inevitable. Seeing the conditions of the tacks first hand and hearing of missing segments , just here in our village, it is like we are waiting for something to happen.

Hopefully this will bring changes , i said hopefully

I see where the CEO of this railway is now stating they "believe" the engineer who had parked the train as directed was supposed to set the wheel brakes on every tank car and now there is belief this was not accomplished correctly. If this is really true visual signs of this would be almost instantly visible. Now this is being followed up by the Provincial Police.

No , this is a scapegoat. Hearing all the reports on my spare time there is no one to really blame .......safe the maintenance of the system , that falls on the highest chair... no laws were broken and everyone did what they were told to do or train to do . The engineer in question is not to blame, I missed out on a story that moments after the event he got a car moving vehicle from Tafisa to move un damaged cars to minimize the fire ... I don't have the real story on this but that man is not to blame

 

[Nuggler]

8O...........Well damn. We gotta hang somebody !!

Sure won't be the RR CEO who could give a shlt less about the blown down town and the dead and missing Canadians.

Just as long as he gets his performance bonus, and the shareholders see their investment value go up.

 

[hunboldt]

The CEO is blaming a lot of people.
I understood the opposite. No air, brakes lock. Same as on a trailer.

GOOD POINT
India Rail has brake vans at the end of every dangerousgoods train, so their 'advanced' ( compared to us') systems would haveprevented this accident. In the 1970's when Iworked for CP rail, heavy braking vans were used on certain dangerous goodstrains. In the name of profit, we have gone backward, while India has movedpast us.
Pity-rather... Un fortunately, wehave posters trying to give this horrible incident a 'political spin'

Mulclair is 'deearight' - the technological fixes to prevent this issue are relatively cheap -proven - used elsewhere.

India's rail systemuses guard vans at the end of ALL dangerous goods trains. Heavy axle brakes'drag' out the train, slowing it and reducing the kinetic 'head force' thatcaused the derailment.

Perhaps that is whyIndia is moving towards a second world economy., the science offail safe electro magnetic brakes on tail end guards vans has been around sincethe 1950's.



this was cost cuttingat its most regrettable.

 

[Zipperfish]

Keep up the practice of transporting crude by rail and you can expect to be reading about more events related to environmental accidents and possibly disasters like the one in Quebec.

That said, I am following this issue closely - crude oil is not easily flammable and certainly not explosive... There must have been a very unique set of circumstances like hauling propane and/or colliding with a high voltage transformer to have caused such a large explosion.

Crude oil is very flammable and potentially explosive.

 

[captain morgan]

Crude oil is very flammable and potentially explosive.

Ever worked with it?

 

[Zipperfish]

Ever worked with it?

Oh yeah. Been at many crude oil spills and accidents over the years. It will be interesting to find out what the modes of failure were and what caused the explosions (BLEVE?). But given the train derailed at 100 km/hour, it's not all that surprising, to me anyways, that there were explosions.

 

[captain morgan]

You watch too many Hollywood productions

 

[Zipperfish]

You watch too many Hollywood productions

Actually, I don't. I do have a pretty in depth knowledge of the chemical constituents of various crudes, and have been involved in emergency response to crude oil spills and crude oil fires. Crude oil typically contains all the constituents of lighter fuels, such as gasoline, making it highly flammable and potentially explosive. It also contains heavier hydrocarbons, meaning it burns for some time. There are light crudes, heavy crudes, synth crudes, crudes wiht additives, crudes that have been sweetened. They all have different propoerties. Virtually all of them will ignite at room temeprature, which is the general definition for flammability.

Seriously, why don't you look this stuff up and educate yourself before you start hurling insults that just make you look like an idiot.

 

[captain morgan]

Actually, I don't. I do have a pretty in depth knowledge of the chemical constituents of various crudes, and have been involved in emergency response to crude oil spills and crude oil fires. Crude oil typically contains all the constituents of lighter fuels, such as gasoline, making it highly flammable and potentially explosive. It also contains heavier hydrocarbons, meaning it burns for some time. There are light crudes, heavy crudes, synth crudes, crudes wiht additives, crudes that have been sweetened. They all have different propoerties. Virtually all of them will ignite at room temeprature, which is the general definition for flammability.

Seriously, why don't you look this stuff up and educate yourself before you start hurling insults that just make you look like an idiot.

Been in the O&G game a long time with a number of years in enviro reclamation/remediation/emerg spill response. The BTEX and free light-ends are easily combustible, but they are a significant minority when compared to the C-9 or higher.

Further, in order to see the explosiveness that was experienced in Quebec, you need heat, pressure and enough of a (light-ends) fuel source to flash the contents to the point of levelling a town... You don't want to believe that, simply fill a bucket with 1 part water and 4 parts gasoline... Throw a match into the bucket and observe the results (hint: you won't have to stand way back or worry about levelling your garage)

That said, the rail cars didn't explode by sheer virtue of being derailed - there must have been some propane being hauled and/or impacted against something like a high voltage transformer.

 

[Goober]

Been in the O&G game a long time with a number of years in enviro reclamation/remediation/emerg spill response. The BTEX and free light-ends are easily combustible, but they are a significant minority when compared to the C-9 or higher.

Further, in order to see the explosiveness that was experienced in Quebec, you need heat, pressure and enough of a (light-ends) fuel source to flash the contents to the point of levelling a town... You don't want to believe that, simply fill a bucket with 1 part water and 4 parts gasoline... Throw a match into the bucket and observe the results (hint: you won't have to stand way back or worry about levelling your garage)

That said, the rail cars didn't explode by sheer virtue of being derailed - there must have been some propane being hauled and/or impacted against something like a high voltage transformer.

Was the city on NG as a fuel source? Or local businesses on propane such as restaurants?

 

[Zipperfish]

Been in the O&G game a long time with a number of years in enviro reclamation/remediation/emerg spill response. The BTEX and free light-ends are easily combustible, but they are a significant minority when compared to the C-9 or higher.

Further, in order to see the explosiveness that was experienced in Quebec, you need heat, pressure and enough of a (light-ends) fuel source to flash the contents to the point of levelling a town... You don't want to believe that, simply fill a bucket with 1 part water and 4 parts gasoline... Throw a match into the bucket and observe the results (hint: you won't have to stand way back or worry about levelling your garage)

That said, the rail cars didn't explode by sheer virtue of being derailed - there must have been some propane being hauled and/or impacted against something like a high voltage transformer.

If the brakes were locked/partially locked anywhere down the line (as apparently the hand brakes may have been) that would have created enough friction to get a fire going. It looks like the tanks may have BLEVE'd (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion) given the destruction. It was shale oil crude from North Dakota, but not sure what type.

 

[Goober]

If the brakes were locked/partially locked anywhere down the line (as apparently the hand brakes may have been) that would have created enough friction to get a fire going. It looks like the tanks may have BLEVE'd (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion) given the destruction. It was shale oil crude from North Dakota, but not sure what type.

Petroleum Insights: North Dakota Surpasses OPEC Member Ecuador in Oil Production
Bakken crude is a low-sulfur variety preferred by refiners not equipped to handle heavier, more corrosive types of oil. Bakken crude rose 1.5 percent to $97.97 a barrel today at the Clearbrook, Minnesota, hub, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The price has increased 15 percent in the past year.

 

[captain morgan]

If the brakes were locked/partially locked anywhere down the line (as apparently the hand brakes may have been) that would have created enough friction to get a fire going. It looks like the tanks may have BLEVE'd (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion) given the destruction. It was shale oil crude from North Dakota, but not sure what type.

I heard that the oil was light crude - certainly of a grade where combustibles like gas or aviation fuel can be refined-out in quantity.... But until it is refined, those derivatives are 'locked' (so to speak) into the body of the crude.

There would certainly be a volume of aromatics 'available' and would release higher quantities if heat applied (ie fire started by the friction of the brakes), but I am skeptical that this kind of situation is possible.

All said, what we do know is that whatever was being hauled and whatever the 'special circumstances', the results are documented and that is not exactly cold-comfort to those families that lost their homes or family members.

... Here's hoping that they find the party(s) responsible and hang 'em by their nuts from the flag pole in the center of the soon-to-be-rebuilt town

 

[hunboldt]

If the brakes were locked/partially locked anywhere down the line (as apparently the hand brakes may have been) that would have created enough friction to get a fire going. It looks like the tanks may have BLEVE'd (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion) given the destruction. It was shale oil crude from North Dakota, but not sure what type.

GOOD POINT

Rail Handbrakes aren't 'locked', they are 'dog clutched' unless they are padlocked.

A drag van can be padlocked with BIG inboard drums, and being at the end of the train, its unlikely to set anything off.


I'm amazed they aren't mandatory for dangerous goods trains.. I guess India is an' advanced tech nation' after all../..

This railroad is going - bankrupt.

 

[Zipperfish]

... Here's hoping that they find the party(s) responsible and hang 'em by their nuts from the flag pole in the center of the soon-to-be-rebuilt town

:lol: here's hoping!

GOOD POINT

Rail Handbrakes aren't 'locked', they are 'dog clutched' unless they are padlocked.
.

Good to know.

 

[hunboldt]

Keep up the practice of transporting crude by rail and you can expect to be reading about more events related to environmental accidents and possibly disasters like the one in Quebec.

That said, I am following this issue closely - crude oil is not easily flammable and certainly not explosive... There must have been a very unique set of circumstances like hauling propane and/or colliding with a high voltage transformer to have caused such a large explosion.

You should look into the kinetics of what happens when a locked brake steel wheel railcar is 'flat skidded', then jumps the track. Lots of sparks from sheared metal