Parliamentary group wants to reopen abortion debate

[Francis2004]

Can anyone explain why there are so many men that think they have a right to dictate what women do with their bodies? And what makes them think they can dictate their religious views to the rest of us.

taxslave,

It is beyond me. Maybe it is a throw back to when men still thought they were kings of the castle and women were chattel. Kind of a left over mind set from the 18th century. Makes me wonder if Darwin made a mistake or if they have a recessive gene or two.

Well Cliffy and taxslave, the last time I was in Church this was still the mind set.. Hence why I have not gone back.. My belief in God is strong and mine to be, but my belief in the Church is not of the same opinion..

 

[Colpy]

so what you're really saying, is that you have hopes and dreams based on something you read somewhere at sometime. But no concrete proof.

My concrete proof? If you put the collection of cells (you call a fetus), out into the big bad world without any support, will it survive? For how long? 3-4 minutes?

Hence, it can't possible be called "living"

Take a newly plucked carrott, plug a positive and negative electrode into it and then cut it. It will register a reaction. Is that alive? I had some last night. Is that cannibalism?

You argument at best is weak and that's why far greater minds than ours have determined that abortion is legal.

Okay....I'm going to dive in here.....

Take a new-born baby, that has gone full-term, and put him/her "out into the big bad world without any support"........and the baby would die.

Are you going to tell me that can't possibly be called living?

I don't like abortion. I don't like the act, I don't like the debate, I don't like the absolute polarization on the subject......I usually try to avoid it, but.....

I think a compromise would be to allow abortion up to a certain number of weeks.........then make it illegal. Simple enough.....once a fetus is viable, it is valuable.......

No abortion law is just nutty.

 

[mit]

So what are the alternatives if a safe abortion in a hospital is not available for a woman who chooses an abortion?
We outlawed drunk driving years ago - increased fines and the costs of getting drunk - people still do it.

 

[Colpy]

So what are the alternatives if a safe abortion in a hospital is not available for a woman who chooses an abortion?
We outlawed drunk driving years ago - increased fines and the costs of getting drunk - people still do it.

Huh?

What are the alternatives of a drunk that wants to get home from a bar......and there are no cabs available?

Do we legalize drunk driving to make it comfortable for him?

BTW, I said, a compromise would be that abortion be legal in the early stages of pregnancy.....in which case any woman has that alternative before the while the fetus is relatively undeveloped.....

Do you think they should be allowed to abort babies at 8 months??????

 

[Colpy]

Canada's in a class of it's own alright - a constitutionally protected right that politicians can't screw up through legislation. We're the only ones who have it right.

Technically, this is untrue.

The Supreme Court found that the previous abortion law, in which a woman had to convince a panel of doctors of her need for an abortion, was unevenly applied across the country.....and was therefore unconstitutional. Their problem was the requirement of approval by a board, which might, or might not be given, basically at the whim of the doctors.

Once that law was struck down, no political party has had the cojones necessary to tackle the issue.....so we simply have no abortion law.

Abortion is NOT constitutionally protected in Canada........this is a misconception.

 

[mit]

Huh?

What are the alternatives of a drunk that wants to get home from a bar......and there are no cabs available?

Do we legalize drunk driving to make it comfortable for him?

BTW, I said, a compromise would be that abortion be legal in the early stages of pregnancy.....in which case any woman has that alternative before the while the fetus is relatively undeveloped.....

Do you think they should be allowed to abort babies at 8 months??????

Alternatives to medically supervised abortion. Coat hangers - severe beatings -drug overdoses, suicide. Not a pretty picture if you think about it.

 

[Cliffy]

Abortion is NOT constitutionally protected in Canada........this is a misconception.

Colpy,

Is that an intentional pun?

I'm thinking that it should remain thus as the government has no business dictating what people can or can't do with their bodies.

While we're at it, repeal the motorcycle helmet law. Only idiots wouldn't wear one so we could get rid of the idiots in short order.

 

[Kreskin]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It isn't protected but her security of person is. Last time I looked the laws were still in the criminal code but the constitution has made them unenforceable.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Short History of Abortion in Canada[/FONT]​

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1892: Parliament enacts the first Criminal Code, which prohibits abortion and the sale, distribution, and advertisement of contraception;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1967: A federal committee considers amendments to the Criminal Code on abortion;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1969: Parliament passes amendments to Section 251 of the Criminal Code, decriminalizing contraception, and allowing some abortions under certain conditions;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1969: Dr. Henry Morgentaler defies section 251 of the Criminal Code and performs abortions in his medical practice in Quebec;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1976: The Quebec government drops all further charges against Morgentaler;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1988: The Supreme Court of Canada strikes down Canada's abortion law as unconstitutional. The law is found to violate section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chief Justice, Brian Dickson, wrote: "Forcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and thus a violation of her security of the person.";[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1989: The Supreme Court of Canada refuses to decide on the claim of Joe Borowski that fetuses have a constitutionally guaranteed right to life, saying his case was moot, due to the abortion law being struck down;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1990: The House of Commons passes Bill C-43 and the legislation is sent to the Senate for approval. In 1991, the bill is narrowly defeated by the Senate in a tie vote. Abortion is now treated like any other medical procedure.[/FONT]

Any party who fights for the laws to be enforced, or rewritten, to deny women this right, will find themselves in bigtime political trouble. Politicians are known to do stupid things from time to time. That would be a mistake of "biblical" proportions.

 

[Tyr]

Take a three month old baby away from resources and it dies too. That does nothing to define whether it is alive, conscious, or deserving of protection.

If it's three months old, then obviously it's alive

 

[Tyr]

Okay....I'm going to dive in here.....

Take a new-born baby, that has gone full-term, and put him/her "out into the big bad world without any support"........and the baby would die.

Are you going to tell me that can't possibly be called living?

I don't like abortion. I don't like the act, I don't like the debate, I don't like the absolute polarization on the subject......I usually try to avoid it, but.....

I think a compromise would be to allow abortion up to a certain number of weeks.........then make it illegal. Simple enough.....once a fetus is viable, it is valuable.......

No abortion law is just nutty.

I think a compromise would be to allow abortion up to a certain number of weeks.........then make it illegal.

Imagine that we agree on something. After the first trimester (13th week), abortion should be at the sole discretion of the physician and danger to the mothers life.

If they haven't figured it our after three months, they're not going to and the baby should be carried to term.

If the mother is still dead set against the child, there are plenty of adoption options

 

[Kreskin]

I think a compromise would be to allow abortion up to a certain number of weeks.........then make it illegal.

Imagine that we agree on something. After the first trimester (13th week), abortion should be at the sole discretion of the physician and danger to the mothers life.

If they haven't figured it our after three months, they're not going to and the baby should be carried to term.

If the mother is still dead set against the child, there are plenty of adoption options

A pregnancy test won't register as positive until one is officially 6 weeks pregnant. And that's for people that are paying attention. Prenatal tests like CVS and Amnios aren't available until the second trimester (and the results aren't provided for weeks afterward). Plus, the courts have ruled that a law can't force a woman to stay pregnant. The issue is frankly way too complicated for codes and parliamentary acts.

 

[Colpy]

Abortion is NOT constitutionally protected in Canada........this is a misconception.

Colpy,

Is that an intentional pun?

I'm thinking that it should remain thus as the government has no business dictating what people can or can't do with their bodies.

While we're at it, repeal the motorcycle helmet law. Only idiots wouldn't wear one so we could get rid of the idiots in short order.

No, actually, it wasn't intentional.....I didn't notice until you pointed it out........lol

I'm thinking there has to be a compromise between no abortion whatsoever and no law......which allows a doctor to go into the birth canal and smash open the skull of the full-term child and destroy the brain while it is being born..........

there has to be middle ground.

as for motorcycle helmets, seat-belt laws, and other "Nanny-state" impositions on personal choice......Yep, let's dump'em.

 

[JLM]

"In Canada you can't remove your kidney and put it on eBay and auction it off. That is illegal. Whereas you actually can end a beating heart of an unborn child the second before it's delivered. Most Canadians would agree that is truly a poor bioethical position for our country to be in."

I don't like abortion. Who does though, right? I'd like to see restrictions. But, with people who make ridiculous statements like this spear heading the debate, it will never get anywhere. WTF does auctioning off a kidney have to do with terminating a pregnancy? What a moron.

Me neither, Karrie- I believe in rights and freedoms and for the most part for people to be able to make up their own minds. We'll never reach agreement on this issue as some believe the rights of the fetus should take precedence, others think the Mother's convenience should take precedence. The main problem I have with abortion is that the subject doesn't get to have a say.

 

[Francis2004]

A pregnancy test won't register as positive until one is officially 6 weeks pregnant. And that's for people that are paying attention. Prenatal tests like CVS and Amnios aren't available until the second trimester (and the results aren't provided for weeks afterward). Plus, the courts have ruled that a law can't force a woman to stay pregnant. The issue is frankly way too complicated for codes and parliamentary acts.

Hummmmmmm

How early can I do a pregnancy test?
A blood test can be positive as early as 10 days after conception. The most common way to determine pregnancy is to purchase an over-the-counter home pregnancy test. The pregnancy tests on the market today can detect a pregnancy as early as the first day of your missed period (the day after your period was due). Many women's cycles are not consistent from month to month. For this reason, some women purchase a kit with two tests, so that they can retake the test three to seven days later if the results are negative or uncertain.

Pregnancy Health Centre: FAQs

The test for pregnancy which can give the quickest result after fertilisation is a rosette inhibition assay for early pregnancy factor (EPF). EPF can be detected in blood within 48 hours of fertilization.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#cite_note-4 However, testing for EPF is expensive and time-consuming.


Most chemical tests for pregnancy look for the presence of the beta subunit of hCG or human chorionic gonadotropin in the blood or urine. hCG can be detected in urine or blood after implantation, which occurs six to twelve days after fertilization.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#cite_note-wilcox-5 Quantitative blood (serum beta) tests can detect hCG levels as low as 1 mIU/mL, while urine tests have published detection thresholds of 20 mIU/mL to 100 mIU/mL, depending on the brand.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#cite_note-6 Qualitative blood tests generally have a threshold of 25 mIU/mL, and so are less sensitive than some available home pregnancy tests. Most home pregnancy tests are based on lateral-flow technology.
With obstetric ultrasonography the gestational sac sometimes can be visualized as early as four and a half weeks of gestation (approximately two and a half weeks after ovulation) and the yolk sac at about five weeks' gestation. The embryo can be observed and measured by about five and a half weeks. The heartbeat may be seen as early as six weeks, and is usually visible by seven weeks' gestation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#cite_note-woo-7http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#cite_note-boschert-8

Accuracy

A systematic review published in 1998 showed that home pregnancy test kits, when used by experienced technicians, are almost as accurate as professional laboratory testing (97.4%). When used by consumers, however, the accuracy fell to 75%: the review authors noted that many users misunderstood or failed to follow the instructions included in the kits. Improper usage may cause both false negatives and false positives.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_test#cite_note-9

Pregnancy test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I recall my now ex tested positive on her home tests within two weeks not 6 weeks. I think the technology has really moved forward since they say it can be detected in blood within 48 hours of fertilization.

I am still of the opinion that if you create a child you should be responsible enough to take care of it.

However there are times when things cannot be controlled and a "special" circumstance has to be considered..

That said I think a time limit has to be put in place.. I think most people know or are in a position to know right away if they want or do not want the child.. Anyone that goes beyond a a trimester and is not in danger or does not have a stillborn must have a really damn good reason for stopping the birth..

 

[Kreskin]

This is like putting into law when you can and can't use the throttle on a motorbike. There are too many variables to make sense of it in a parliamentary act or criminal code.

 

[Francis2004]

as for motorcycle helmets, seat-belt laws, and other "Nanny-state" impositions on personal choice......Yep, let's dump'em.

Yup I can agree with that as long as your over 18.. Children should however stay protected.. It then becomes your choice if you want to be a good example to your children to wear such devices.. But you should have the choice as an Adult..

 

[Kreskin]

How early can I do a pregnancy test?
A blood test can be positive as early as 10 days after conception. The most common way to determine pregnancy is to purchase an over-the-counter home pregnancy test. The pregnancy tests on the market today can detect a pregnancy as early as the first day of your missed period (the day after your period was due). Many women's cycles are not consistent from month to month. For this reason, some women purchase a kit with two tests, so that they can retake the test three to seven days later if the results are negative or uncertain.

I should've said 4 weeks. Conception doesn't occur until you're 2 weeks pregnant, believe it or not..because you count a pregnancy from the last mentrual period and ovulation takes place about two weeks later, and a 'reliable' test doesn't occur for up to 15 days. So generally alittle over 4 weeks.

 

[Kreskin]

With obstetric ultrasonography the gestational sac sometimes can be visualized as early as four and a half weeks of gestation

That is 6.5 weeks pregnant.

 

[JLM]

Yup I can agree with that as long as your over 18.. Children should however stay protected.. It then becomes your choice if you want to be a good example to your children to wear such devices.. But you should have the choice as an Adult..

You should definitely have the choice as an adult, BUT should you sustain serious injuries caused by not wearing it then you should NOT be covered under the public health system. The ones who do wear them shouldn't have to fork out for others' stupidity.

 

[Kreskin]

Quantitative blood (serum beta) tests can detect hCG levels as low as 1 mIU/mL, while urine tests have published detection thresholds of 20 mIU/mL to 100 mIU/mL, depending on the brand.

RE's generally don't like low counts because some pregnancies are chemical (very early m/c). They generally call you pg if it is 50+, and even then cautiously because about one-third of all pregnancies miscarry, and most of those losses don't even know they were pregnant unless they tracked it.