Parliamentary group wants to reopen abortion debate

[Machjo]

I believe that life begins at conception.

That's a common misconception. The life in question is the product of two living organisms, at no time was there a state of nonlife to transition from. All life therefore is an extension of previously existing life and not in fact new life but new extensions of original life. I know its abstruse but it's friday night and I'v sworn off the booze.:smile:

OK, human life begins at conception, as distinct from ovarian and sperm life.

 

[Cliffy]

OK, human life begins at conception, as distinct from ovarian and sperm life.

That is still just your opinion and you can't force your opinion on others. If we are to have a fair society, we have to account for everyone's opinions. My opinion is that it is none of our business unless it directly affects us.

 

[tracy]

"I was channel surfing last night and they actually have a "show" on about some loon with 17 kids."- Comments like that are hurtful and hateful. It's nobody else's business except the guy and his wife AS LONG as he supports them and raises them with the intent to be self-supporting responsible citizens

They put themselves and their family on international television. You can't do that and then say people have no right to comment on your family.

Personally, I think reproductive choices are to be left to the people doing the reproducing but I do see the harm on the larger scale. The human population can't increase indefinitely.

 

[Tyr]

Interesting points.. My Dad's side of the family had 14 kids.. No Government help and his Father died when he was 10.. My Mom's side of the Family had 8 kids and her Mom died when she was was 9.

In the gold old days of 1930's it was the norm to have that many kids and in many countries it still is the norm to have at least 4 to 6 kids..

Canada is in a situation of population decrease so we have increased our immigration. The fact that Seniors will out pace our kids in two to 5 years is a major issue in that our Canada and Old Age pension plans may not be there when I retire. Had we continued to a more moderate rate of having children we would have kept up. The US has a slightly better rate then us.

Lets face reality that most of our generation have 1 to 2 kids.. If you have two kids, that barely replaces the two adults that will become seniors..

That is besides those children who are gay, die an early age and so on.. Realistically we should be having 4 kids to stabilize the population of Canada let alone grow it..

Anyhow I have adopted one and had one. If I could have had another at that time I would have, but things were not to be and I would not have had children just for the sake of having them..

Canada's children per couple is 2.1. It needs to be 2.3 to replace the number of people moving beyond reproducing age. I have no problem with people having 2-3 kids, but after that, a flat tax of $10,000/yr per child for the added strain on the system wouldn't be out of order. That way, they have a choice but it'll cost them

 

[Machjo]

Canada's children per couple is 2.1. It needs to be 2.3 to replace the number of people moving beyond reproducing age. I have no problem with people having 2-3 kids, but after that, a flat tax of $10,000/yr per child for the added strain on the system wouldn't be out of order. That way, they have a choice but it'll cost them

There's a flaw in that assumption. Doeas every couple in Caanda have 2.526 kids?

Do you own 2.3 dogs? Do you own 2.873 TVs?

Of course not. We can't make such blanket assumptions with statistics. Some people have 2 kids, some 1, and some none. So in fact we need at least some couples having 10 or so kids to compensate for the many couples that have no kids.

Unless of course you were suggesting that all able-bodied and firtile Canadian women should be mandated to have no fewer than 2 kids and no more than 3 by the age of 35?

 

[Machjo]

That is still just your opinion and you can't force your opinion on others. .

It might be my opinion but it's still valid as an opinion. I'll explain it below.

If we are to have a fair society, we have to account for everyone's opinions.

I agree.

My opinion is that it is none of our business unless it directly affects us.

Now this is where we run into problems. If I see a stranger beating the pulp out of his kid, I should intervene in my opinion. Now this might be my opinion, but it still doesn't change the fact that I feel a need to impose this opinion in the belief that I have not only a right but even a duty to protect that child.

 

[Tyr]

There's a flaw in that assumption. Doeas every couple in Caanda have 2.526 kids?

Do you own 2.3 dogs? Do you own 2.873 TVs?

Of course not. We can't make such blanket assumptions with statistics. Some people have 2 kids, some 1, and some none. So in fact we need at least some couples having 10 or so kids to compensate for the many couples that have no kids.

Unless of course you were suggesting that all able-bodied and firtile Canadian women should be mandated to have no fewer than 2 kids and no more than 3 by the age of 35?

uh huh. I's suggest a coin flip based on your logic

 

[Cliffy]

Now this is where we run into problems. If I see a stranger beating the pulp out of his kid, I should intervene in my opinion. Now this might be my opinion, but it still doesn't change the fact that I feel a need to impose this opinion in the belief that I have not only a right but even a duty to protect that child.

Sure! I would like to beat the tar out of the cretin too but do I want to go to jail for it? I could always report the prick to the police because it is against the law but that has nothing to do with abortion since it is not against the law. I don't like abortion so I would never have one (being male makes that decision real easy) but I would not assume to know what is best for anybody else. That is between them and their maker. If it is murder, their gawd'll get 'um. That is not for me to judge.

 

[Cliffy]

Unless of course you were suggesting that all able-bodied and firtile Canadian women should be mandated to have no fewer than 2 kids and no more than 3 by the age of 35?

Machjo,

Where can I volunteer to help fill the quotas?

 

[Tyr]

And if a fetus can survive once delivered outside of its mother? Where do your morals come in then? If a life can survive without its mother, does she still have the right to extinguish it?

No she doesn't

 

[Tyr]

Unless of course you were suggesting that all able-bodied and firtile Canadian women should be mandated to have no fewer than 2 kids and no more than 3 by the age of 35?

Machjo,

Where can I volunteer to help fill the quotas?

You're in Cliff. I just fired a letter off to my MP to support your patriotic and unselfish gesture.

 

[tracy]

Praxius, the law as it functions right this moment already grants you rights as a human being, but prevents you from fulfilling those rights at my expense. It's pretty simple. You have a right to medical treatment, but you can't get it by forcing me to give up organs for example. Why exactly would the issue of rights for a fetus be any different exactly? Not one person in here has really been able to explain that to me. If a fetus is not violating its mothers security of person (which was the legal basis for allowing abortion), why does it not deserve protection under the law?

I'm surprised you of all people would not see how a pregnancy poses an obvious threat to a woman's security. Pregnancy and birth is MUCH riskier than an abortion. We've had 2 women almost bleed to death this past month in our hospital. Neither had any known risk factors. They're lucky to be alive. Even without such extreme examples, normal births are hardly painless or safe.

 

[tracy]

I don't have solid proof that YOU reason. Cognition is not a concrete aspect of science, and there is no evidence that the brain suddenly turns on upon birth. I've seen studies that prove that fetuses dream, so one could conclude that their brains are functioning just as well as a new born's would. I have no more 'proof' that they have any more or less reasoning capacity, than you have.

That isn't quite accurate depending on the gestation of the pregnancy. The brain is not developped the same at 23 weeks as it is at full term. It is developping and there is a LOT of research going into that area of neonatal care right now because we don't know how all our interventions affect the brain development of a baby that should still be developping in the womb but is instead in the outside world being subjected to noises, machines, drugs, etc.

Neurologists actually can't even diagnose brain death in infants until they are term because premature brains are different than term brains and are capable of recovery and changes. For instance, premature babies often have a flaw in their brain that prevents them from triggering breathing (it's called apnea of prematurity). Their brains simply forget to tell them to breathe and they would die without intervention. That can go on to about 35 weeks. Term babies brains are fully developped so they don't have that problem. I don't know where the cutoff would be for when a baby's brain development makes it worthy of protection, but we tend to stay away from that topic anyways. In hospitals, babies get treated when they have a reasonable chance of surviving intact. The US already has a born alive act requiring this.

 

[Tyr]

From "God's" perspective

People who raise religious concerns about the rights of fetuses, and objections to abortion, should read what a geneticist ordained as a Dominican priest had to say in an interview with U.S. Catholic magazine last year. The November issue of Scientific American reported that Francisco J. Ayala reminded readers that one of five pregnancies ends in spontaneous miscarriage. He asked, "If God explicitly designed the human reproductive system, is God the biggest abortionist of them all?" And if God can choose not to allow some of those with genetic diseases to be born, why can't pregnant women also have the right to choose?

 

[Francis2004]

Canada's children per couple is 2.1. It needs to be 2.3 to replace the number of people moving beyond reproducing age. I have no problem with people having 2-3 kids, but after that, a flat tax of $10,000/yr per child for the added strain on the system wouldn't be out of order. That way, they have a choice but it'll cost them

Tyr, how many kids die before the age of 5, 10 or 20? They have not even contributed to society yet in the social programs yet. Having 2.3 kids is barely replacing the exact amount if the children live to adult life..

Most couples in Canada now start a family at age 30 to 35.. If their child dies at age 10 most women will have a big issue replacing that child.

The problem has been economics. As well many women want to finish their studies before starting a family prior to starting to have children..

Realistically families in Canada should have at minimum 3 to 4 ( heavy on the 4 ) kids to keep our population stable..

 

[JLM]

Tyr, how many kids die before the age of 5, 10 or 20? They have not even contributed to society yet in the social programs yet. Having 2.3 kids is barely replacing the exact amount if the children live to adult life..

Most couples in Canada now start a family at age 30 to 35.. If their child dies at age 10 most women will have a big issue replacing that child.

The problem has been economics. As well many women want to finish their studies before starting a family prior to starting to have children..

Realistically families in Canada should have at minimum 3 to 4 ( heavy on the 4 ) kids to keep our population stable..

Four is a good number, there were four kids in our family. NIne is even better, then you can have your own ball team................:lol:

 

[Francis2004]

Four is a good number, there were four kids in our family. NIne is even better, then you can have your own ball team................:lol:

ha ha ha I like the 9 but what about 10 just in case..
What happens when you need a pinch hitter ?

 

[JLM]

ha ha ha I like the 9 but what about 10 just in case..
What happens when you need a pinch hitter ?

Ten is even better.