Palestinian - Why Mahmoud Abbas’s U.N. statehood bid is great for Israel -- and the U

Goober

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Traitor because he is a stooge to the West like Arafat was in his final days. What 'leader' in their right mind would give away the tight to return and land? Those are ICC types of decisions and his over-stay in office could make all the 'deals' null and void. Perhaps the rope is waiting for him in the Hauge.

"Traitor is not the term you should be using. "
Well ****tard gets edited nor is it a term the ICC cares about..

Because it would never be accepted by Israel- But those that support the disappearance of the State of Israel are all for it. And what is the result of that- more fighting- more killing.
Odd how the Jews that were expelled from Arab countries, had their property confiscated are not even mentioned.
Rather one sided is it not.
 

MHz

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In that the expulsion was in retaliation for the 700,000 Arabs deported from the contested land they should have the right to leave Israel and return to their former Nations, it isn't like they were climbing over walls to get to the 'homeland'. Maybe they knew this was not part of God at work. In the Bible it says none will be left in the Nations, How many Jews live outside their 'homeland' at the moment, or is that 'optional' in the Rothschild version of playing God?
Ever consider that they were not even persecuted in those Nations or there would not have been any to expel. Really the 33 Nations that backed UN 181 should have been there to insure things went according to 'the plan', hope the ICC sends the bill so just some of the 33.. You do know that the Jews in Iran refused to move even when offered large amounts of money and other incentives. Do you consider them traitors?

Are you saying that if the ICC installed a return rule (ending Jews having a majority in the Government) that the current Israeli Government would refuse to comply?? (like they did when their own Courts told them the fence had to be moved in at least one location). That is how the State of Israel will disappear and by right they are in serious breech of UN 273, their agreement with the World to 'be good neighbors', held as much water as any treaty made with what was left of the First Nations.
 

petros

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Go Team!​
 

Goober

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It is clear that in this new world we expect all Govts to respond ASAP- Why -

Everything that is going on in the mE has and operates at differing levels.

Note this one please.
Israel turns blind eye to Hamas chief

Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal’s first trip to Gaza is being mostly ignored by Israel, except for a refusal on two members of Hamas’s sister group Islamic Jihad.

Members of Iranian-backed Islamic Jihad say Israel has warned two of the militant group’s top leaders against trying to enter the Gaza Strip this week.

The pair had planned to visit Friday, along with Mashaal.

Israel and Gaza’s ruling Hamas have been holding indirect talks, through Egypt, following an Israeli offensive on militant targets in Gaza last month.

The two Islamic Jihad members said Thursday that Egypt had relayed warnings that Israel would consider the Gaza truce over if the group’s leaders enter Gaza. They spoke spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to discuss the issue with the media.
Related

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Israeli settlements a ‘red line’: Palestinians appeal to UN to block controversial construction plans
Canada to continue $300-million humanitarian aid to Palestinians: spokesman for John Baird

Mashaal, who has positioned himself as a pragmatist and enjoys the backing of regional heavyweights Egypt, Turkey and Qatar, could also use the trip to lobby for re-election.

Mashaal is to arrive Friday for a three-day tour, with Hamas’ 25th anniversary rally on Saturday set as the centerpiece. He’ll visit the homes of two Hamas icons assassinated by Israel, military chief Ahmed Jabari and spiritual leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin.

His landmark visit comes two weeks after the bloodiest round of Israel-Gaza fighting in four years, which included the killing of Jabari as well as hundreds of Israeli airstrikes on Hamas targets and an equal number of Gaza rockets fired into Israel.

Hamas has portrayed itself as the victor because Israel agreed to an Egyptian-brokered truce after eight days, instead of sending ground troops, as it initially threatened.

On Thursday, workers set up the stage for the anniversary rally, including a 13-meter-high (43-foot-high) replica of an M-75, a missile Hamas has fired deep into Israel. “Made in Gaza,” was written on the rocket.
 

MHz

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I've seen several stats for the number of rockets that have been exchanged, as high as 1600 fired from Gaza and 1000 intercepted. Too bad no actual tracking data is available that show what went where. How many direct hits did both sides take where the projectile can be identified? In Israel every one coming in and everyone they fired is probably available but don't hold your breath as their finger, well never mind, when that would see the light of day so you go with what is fed you and toss out the highest and the lowest and average the rest. Say that works out to 1,000 warheadless rockets from Gaza and 500 known to be fired by Israel (via video of tubes being reloaded) Let say you were in charge of bombs and pilot safety and and an F-16 gets tagged the first day out and the 'mission' calls for 100 such flights. Use what alternative you have, the 'defensive' anti-aircraft missile batteries can target anything that can be lit up. I do not care what you see on TV the good stuff is not some ancient *** black-power monstrous thing, the best should be steerable warhead powered by some highly compressed XXX gas that is pennies per cubic yard to produce. The massive tube for 'Samson' is surgical tubing like material so it's a ****ing slingshot using very cheap ammo and pennies to make but the 'customer' gets soaked 1M per shot. Is it not against most treaties (I know used toilet paper is stronger than that paper) to use it as an aggressive instrument. Iron dome is completed and a few days later (after a long lull) it gets the opportunity to get tested, this last bombardment is an excuse to test the next generation of munitions, slingshot launch and guided by smokeless propellents that are also the warhead as heat and pressure wave are the killing agents. The ideal gas would be (not kidding) hoho, one step up from hho gas and it is an instant explosion with no traces. Hho burns hydrogen rich so any metal the flame touches has that abnormality burned in.
With me so far, to bad if you're not cause it gets better, that same kind of weapon deployed in Turkey give the rebels the ability to plan as many 'car-bombs' as 100/day and nobody could say different. Well that is except Russia, you remember the UN Security Member that had the ability to pounce at once when a 'foe' gets an injury in war. Their ships can also track those same targets and while the data they collect might not collect that projectile it can sure tell just where it was launched from an retaliation if desired is about 5 minutes away via air express.

That took a little longer than I planned because I was going to step by step your post to show you how I read it and what the story behind the advertisement is really saying. Compared to an that because it is trying to sell you a product, in their case the most expensive product men can make, war.

BTW I'm sorry for using you as my blackboard for getting message out to the usual suspects.
 

Goober

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After the Israeli elections would be a good time for the US- EU- Canada to pressure Netanyahu

If the West Bank erupts with another Intifada Israel will wear it on the world stage. A losing situation in every way for Israel if they refuse to come to the table.

Israel jittery about new Palestinian uprising as tensions rise | Israel & Middle East | World | News | National Post

JERUSALEM — The rising confidence and bellicosity of Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip, combined with rapidly deteriorating relations with Israel’s would-be peace partner in the West Bank, are raising jitters in Israel that a new Palestinian uprising could be near.

A number of prominent voices urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday to take steps to ease the tensions and bolster the Western-backed Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas. Netanyahu’s political rival, former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, warned that renewed violence might not be “far off.”

But the Israeli leader stood tough. Poised for re-election, it appears unlikely he will float a bold new initiative anytime soon. “We in the government have no illusions. We want a true peace with our neighbors. But we will not close our eyes and stick our heads in the sand,” Netanyahu told his Cabinet.

Or they can deal with a rising tide of hate- Intifada- Violence which will bring down the Israeli hammer and extend the cycle-
The Israelis have to after this election come to the table.

BBC News - Khaled Meshaal rallies Gazans on Hamas anniversary

It enjoys support in Gaza and feels it is gaining regional political influence after the Arab uprisings brought new Islamist governments to power, she adds.

Tens of thousands of Gazans made their way to the rally at the al-Qatiba complex west of Gaza City to hear the speech by Mr Meshaal.

"As long as Palestine is ours and Palestine is the land of Arabism and Islam, we can never recognise the legitimacy of Israel's occupation of it," he told supporters.

"There is no legitimacy for occupation. Hence, there is no legitimacy for Israel, however long time lasts."
 
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earth_as_one

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Actually Hamas won a clear majority across both the West bank and Gaza. They aren't in power in the West Bank as a result of the US and Israel arming Fatah and triggering a civil war which Fatah won in the West Bank and lost in Gaza.

I doubt Hamas is as popular now as they were then, but after the last free and fair elections, I doubt Israel or the US will allow the Palestinian people the right to democratically elect their leaders.
 

CDNBear

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Actually Hamas won a clear majority across both the West bank and Gaza. They aren't in power in the West Bank as a result of the US and Israel arming Fatah and triggering a civil war which Fatah won in the West Bank and lost in Gaza.

I doubt Hamas is as popular now as they were then, but after the last free and fair elections, I doubt Israel or the US will allow the Palestinian people the right to democratically elect their leaders.
How long is Hamas' term?

It's been 6 years and no mention of an election.
 

earth_as_one

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I just try to ignore you most of the time CB. Also, sometimes I'm busy and I don't visit this site for a while.

The last election was won by Hamas and they never got a chance to lead as per their mandate. so I'd say their term hasn't started yet. Until Palestinians elect a new government, the results of the last election stand.

I don't support brutal dictators who cling to power by military force. I doubt Abbas would win the next election, although his successful bid to get Palestine partial UN recognition probably increased his popularity somewhat. But his thugs have killed too many people for him to be able to win an election.
 

Goober

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I just try to ignore you most of the time CB. Also, sometimes I'm busy and I don't visit this site for a while.

The last election was won by Hamas and they never got a chance to lead as per their mandate. so I'd say their term hasn't started yet. Until Palestinians elect a new government, the results of the last election stand.

I don't support brutal dictators who cling to power by military force. I doubt Abbas would win the next election, although his successful bid to get Palestine partial UN recognition probably increased his popularity somewhat. But his thugs have killed too many people for him to be able to win an election.

I guess killing off Fatah members would cause a bit of a stall in elections.

How do you think Hamas retains power. Not everyone in Gaza loves them. Your post is beyond ludicrous.
 
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earth_as_one

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I guess you never read the link I posted to an article in Vanity Fair:
The Gaza Bombshell | Vanity Fair

After Hamas won a majority in the last Palestinian election, Israel and the United States significantly increased their military aid to Abbas. They also hired a small army of mercenaries to fight on behalf Abbas, triggering a civil war.

In the West Bank, Abbas's personal military force along with Israeli military forces abducted tortured and murdered hundreds/thousands of Palestinians who did not support Abbas. Thousands of Hamas supporters and political representatives who did not participate in the fighting as well as their family, relatives and friends remain locked up in Abbas's and Israeli dungeons where they were tortured solely because of their political viewpoint.

In Gaza, Hamas forces intercepted US and Israel arms shipments to Abbas agents. Hamas killed dozens to hundreds of Abbas militants and mercenaries in Gaza during the civil war. When the dust settled Hamas also abducted, tortured and murdered those who fought on behalf of Abbas. While they also arrested Abbas's political representatives, most were released on their word that they would not take up arms against Hamas.

While both sides committed atrocities during the civil war, Hamas tended to focus on military threats to their democratic mandate while Abbas focused on military and political threats to his dictatorship.

I don't support brutal dictators like Abbas who clings to power by military force with external support.

I believe in separation of Church and State, and therefore don't support Hamas either. Religious states are a bad idea that result i state sponsored discrimination, injustice and oppression. Which religion doesn't make a difference.

I do support a complete arms embargo on the entire region.

Any news source that portrays Hamas as coming to power in Gaza by force without mentioning their unfulfilled democratic mandate, Abbas's use of violence to seize power in the West Bank or US/Israeli interference is either incomplete, inaccurate or deliberately manipulative.

BTW, I am aware that Hamas never won 100% of the vote. That only happens in fixed elections. The last Palestinian election appeared to be free and fair as per reports by international monitors.

The Central Elections Commission released the final results on Sunday, January 29, 2006, and announced that Hamas had won 74 of the 132 seats, while Fatah trailed with 45.[6]

According to the results, Hamas won the large majority of the constituency seats but was more narrowly ahead on the lists. Fatah did beat Hamas in the constituencies in Qalqilya, Rafah, and Jericho. Jenin was split evenly, and Fatah won the seats reserved for Christians in Bethlehem, Jerusalem, and Ramallah.

The Central Elections Commission said turnout was 74.6%–76.0% in the Gaza Strip and 73.1% in the West Bank.[7​
Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestinian voted on 25 January to elect a legislature for the first time since 1996. 27 Members of the European Parliament were there to observe the election process. They visited polling stations in East Jerusalem, across the West Bank and Gaza. Their initial verdict on the process was largely positive. Parliament will be giving a political reaction to the results of the vote and its consequences at this week's plenary session, attended by the EU's foreign policy chief Javier Solana.

The Parliament's President Josep Borrell said that he "would like to salute the determination of the Palestinian people.....who in spite of very difficult conditions went in very large numbers to the polling stations to express their democratic choice. Democracy has spoken, the result must be respected and accepted". However he went on to warn Hamas that the "use of violence is not compatible with the rules of democracy".

The Foreign Affairs Committee of the Parliament also gave the result a cautious welcome. Meeting in Brussels last Thursday members called on Hamas to cease violence and recognise the State of Israel. Also present was the European Commissioner for External Relations Benita Ferrero-Waldner, who termed the elections a "success" as they had been largely peaceful.​
EU@UN - EU Parliament - MEPs oversee historic Palestinian election

Israel did interfere somewhat in the Palestinian, by restricting travel of some Hamas supporters, but that appears not to have significantly impacted Hamas's landslide victory.

Also it would appear that the EU Parliament's President Josep Borrell warned the wrong group. At the time of the election, Hamas was maintaining a truce with Israel and had not committed any acts of violence against Israel for well ove3r a year. Post election violence was initiated by the US, Israel and Abbas, not Hamas.

Even though Hamas clearly won the last election and has a democratic mandate to represent the Palestinian people, the result was civil war and an Abbas dictatorship in the West Bank as a direct consequence of US/Israeli interference. (read the Vanity Fair link above)

Abbas's rule in the West Bank represents the will of the US and Israel, rather than the will of the Palestinian people.

Gaza is not a democracy either. But Hamas's governance of Gaza more closely resembles the will of the Palestinian people than the Abbas dictatorship in the West Bank.
 
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CDNBear

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I just try to ignore you most of the time CB.
Yes, we all know you ignore the truth.

Also, sometimes I'm busy and I don't visit this site for a while.
Ummm, ya, you posted almost immediately after I asked the first time.

The last election was won by Hamas and they never got a chance to lead as per their mandate. so I'd say their term hasn't started yet. Until Palestinians elect a new government, the results of the last election stand.
Nice excuse.

Tell me why you think their term hasn't started yet.

I don't support brutal dictators who cling to power by military force.
Funny, you support Hamas.

But his thugs have killed too many people for him to be able to win an election.
Hamas hasn't?
 

Goober

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I guess you never read the link I posted to an article in Vanity Fair:
The Gaza Bombshell | Vanity Fair

After Hamas won a majority in the last Palestinian election, Israel and the United States significantly increased their military aid to Abbas. They also hired a small army of mercenaries to fight on behalf Abbas, triggering a civil war.

In the West Bank, Abbas's personal military force along with Israeli military forces abducted tortured and murdered hundreds/thousands of Palestinians who did not support Abbas. Thousands of Hamas supporters and political representatives who did not participate in the fighting as well as their family, relatives and friends remain locked up in Abbas's and Israeli dungeons where they were tortured solely because of their political viewpoint.

In Gaza, Hamas forces intercepted US and Israel arms shipments to Abbas agents. Hamas killed dozens to hundreds of Abbas militants and mercenaries in Gaza during the civil war. When the dust settled Hamas also abducted, tortured and murdered those who fought on behalf of Abbas. While they also arrested Abbas's political representatives, most were released on their word that they would not take up arms against Hamas.

While both sides committed atrocities during the civil war, Hamas tended to focus on military threats to their democratic mandate while Abbas focused on military and political threats to his dictatorship.

I don't support brutal dictators like Abbas who clings to power by military force with external support.

I believe in separation of Church and State, and therefore don't support Hamas either. Religious states are a bad idea that result i state sponsored discrimination, injustice and oppression. Which religion doesn't make a difference.

I do support a complete arms embargo on the entire region.

Any news source that portrays Hamas as coming to power in Gaza by force without mentioning their unfulfilled democratic mandate, Abbas's use of violence to seize power in the West Bank or US/Israeli interference is either incomplete, inaccurate or deliberately manipulative.

BTW, I am aware that Hamas never won 100% of the vote. That only happens in fixed elections. The last Palestinian election appeared to be free and fair as per reports by international monitors.

The Central Elections Commission released the final results on Sunday, January 29, 2006, and announced that Hamas had won 74 of the 132 seats, while Fatah trailed with 45.[6]

According to the results, Hamas won the large majority of the constituency seats but was more narrowly ahead on the lists. Fatah did beat Hamas in the constituencies in Qalqilya, Rafah, and Jericho. Jenin was split evenly, and Fatah won the seats reserved for Christians in Bethlehem, Jerusalem, and Ramallah.

The Central Elections Commission said turnout was 74.6%–76.0% in the Gaza Strip and 73.1% in the West Bank.[7​
Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestinian voted on 25 January to elect a legislature for the first time since 1996. 27 Members of the European Parliament were there to observe the election process. They visited polling stations in East Jerusalem, across the West Bank and Gaza. Their initial verdict on the process was largely positive. Parliament will be giving a political reaction to the results of the vote and its consequences at this week's plenary session, attended by the EU's foreign policy chief Javier Solana.

The Parliament's President Josep Borrell said that he "would like to salute the determination of the Palestinian people.....who in spite of very difficult conditions went in very large numbers to the polling stations to express their democratic choice. Democracy has spoken, the result must be respected and accepted". However he went on to warn Hamas that the "use of violence is not compatible with the rules of democracy".

The Foreign Affairs Committee of the Parliament also gave the result a cautious welcome. Meeting in Brussels last Thursday members called on Hamas to cease violence and recognise the State of Israel. Also present was the European Commissioner for External Relations Benita Ferrero-Waldner, who termed the elections a "success" as they had been largely peaceful.​
EU@UN - EU Parliament - MEPs oversee historic Palestinian election

Israel did interfere somewhat in the Palestinian, by restricting travel of some Hamas supporters, but that appears not to have significantly impacted Hamas's landslide victory.

Also it would appear that the EU Parliament's President Josep Borrell warned the wrong group. At the time of the election, Hamas was maintaining a truce with Israel and had not committed any acts of violence against Israel for well ove3r a year. Post election violence was initiated by the US, Israel and Abbas, not Hamas.

Even though Hamas clearly won the last election and has a democratic mandate to represent the Palestinian people, the result was civil war and an Abbas dictatorship in the West Bank as a direct consequence of US/Israeli interference. (read the Vanity Fair link above)

Abbas's rule in the West Bank represents the will of the US and Israel, rather than the will of the Palestinian people.

Gaza is not a democracy either. But Hamas's governance of Gaza more closely resembles the will of the Palestinian people than the Abbas dictatorship in the West Bank.

Appears David Rose has some issues with truth. And has been taken to task for that.
David Rose - Powerbase
From 9-11 to Iraq

In the immediate aftermath of 9-11, Rose wrote many articles echoing the claims of neoconservative think-tanker Laurie Mylroie. In December he published a story in Vanity Fair alleging that Iraq was involved in the September 11 attacks. His sole source was an INC defector. On the same night he appeared on CNN and NBC to repeat his allegations. He told NBC’s Chris Matthews that 9/11 was ‘a joint operation’ between Iraq and Al Qaeda. He also alleged that Iraq was training ‘a super elite special forces offensive commando’ unit of terrorists to target the United States. In the months leading up to the war Rose would produce three more reports, each progressively more fantastic, about Iraq's alleged WMDs and its links to Al Qaeda.[9]. Rose also wrote or coauthored five articles for the Observer claiming that there were 'direct Iraqi links' with the 9/11 hijackers; that 'Iraqi training, intelligence and logistics were hidden behind an Islamist facade'; that Iraq 'ran a terrorist camp for foreign Islamists, where it taught them how to hijack planes with boxcutters'; and that the anthrax attacks in the United States in October 2001 had 'an ultimate Iraqi origin'.[10] He also wrote a glowing review of Mylroie's book in which she elaborates on Iraq's alleged links to terrorism.[11]
 

Goober

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Never trust Govt or the media.....

Oh I am sure there is fact and fiction within the article- You have the PLO and Hamas- PLO has renounced violence under Abbas- Hamas?????

They hate - have the killing hate which is also part of the conflict base- On all sides at times.

You can look back or forwards- Some people are still looking back- To many it seems.
 

Goober

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The Arab Peace Initiative Under Review - By Jerome M. Segal | The Middle East Channel

The initiative, adopted by the League of Arab States in March 2002, was an historic opening that could have made a major contribution toward resolving the Israeli- Palestinian as well as the Israeli-Arab conflicts. When the initiative was put forward, Ariel Sharon was Prime Minister of Israel, and there was no likelihood that the architect of Israel's settlement policy would agree to the withdrawal to the 1967 lines called for by the Arab states. The primary audience for the initiative was not the Israeli government, but the Israeli people. The message to Israelis essentially was: In the context of a comprehensive peace, with your neighbors and the Palestinians, the entire Arab world will "consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended" and "establish normal relations with Israel."

If the initiative had said just that much and nothing more, it would have had a powerful effect on Israeli society and ultimately Israeli politics. Instead, the initiative went on to detail what was expected of Israel in a peace agreement. And when the initiative addressed the Palestinian refugee issue, it called for the "achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194."

This was the deal killer. To Israeli ears, to speak of Resolution 194, then and now, is to speak of the right of return of Palestinian refugees. It conjures up images of millions of Palestinians returning to Israel and turning Jewish-Israelis into a minority

There is, however, another alternative, one recently proposed in the New York Times by Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami, Former EU High Commissioner Javier Solana, Nobel Prize winner Thomas C. Schelling, and me: The United Nations, if necessary, the U.N. General Assembly, should appoint a special peace commission, headed by a distinguished American, such as Bill Clinton. This commission would go to the region and directly engage, not the governments, but the two peoples. It would collect new ideas, hold hearings, and study public opinion. Its first mission would be to answer the fundamental question: Is there a way to address the core issues of the conflict, including Jerusalem and refugees, which the majorities of both populations would support?

If the commission concludes that there are solutions that could win majority support on both sides, it would proceed to formulate a draft treaty document. This would then be presented to the PLO and the Israeli government as the starting point for the resumption of bilateral negotiations. Assuming that the commission has identified a plan supported by both populations, if either government agrees to use the proposal as the point of reference, the other side will be under enormous pressure from its own public to follow suit.
 

CDNBear

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This was the deal killer. To Israeli ears, to speak of Resolution 194, then and now, is to speak of the right of return of Palestinian refugees. It conjures up images of millions of Palestinians returning to Israel and turning Jewish-Israelis into a minority

And to anyone that has been paying attention oblectively over the last 60 years, that would be a death sentence to the Jews.