Our cooling world

waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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Relics of a chilly past. Quit clinging to nostalgia.

says the guy who perpetually flogs the Holocene Optimum as some significant indicator to relate to today's relatively recent warming... what are YOU, as you say, "clinging to" there? Any chance you might take a stab, finally, in clarifying why you repeatedly refer to the Holocene Optimum... and how you presume to correlate the causes of the Holocene warming to today's relatively recent warming? Any chance you're finally ready to go there... or, as you now state, you're done with "clinging to nostalgia" and you won't bring forward that Holocene Optimum hobby-horse of yours again?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
113,507
12,865
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Low Earth Orbit
The entire f-cking Holocene idiot. Can you at least get one f-cking thing right?

Explain the gaps in the ice records. Go ahead be the first.
 

waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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The entire f-cking Holocene idiot. Can you at least get one f-cking thing right?

right! You've never tried to flog the warming of the Holocene Optimum... you've never mentioned it... evah! Is that your new position?

here Walter... try this one... perhaps it will finally allow you to "get it". You know, before you try to once again flog Antarctic sea-ice extent:

 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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Vernon, B.C.
of course! That's why I'm forever pointing out the idiocy of those that continue to beat the drum over Antarctic sea ice extent... notwithstanding, after stating it numerous times and showing the same/like melt vs. freeze seasonal change graphic, they still insist upon barking over Antarctic sea-ice extent. That's why I've put significant emphasis on the loss of Antarctic ice-sheet mass... like this post:


Yep and there's a few quadrillion more to go. :)
 

waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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Yep and there's a few quadrillion more to go. :)

that's one way to deny/minimize the loss of Antarctic ice mass! Since you have such a qualified opinion on that, what's causing that Antarctic... or Arctic... ice mass/volume melting loss?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
that's one way to deny/minimize the loss of Antarctic ice mass! Since you have such a qualified opinion on that, what's causing that Antarctic... or Arctic... ice mass/volume melting loss?


When you have a pile of ice a mile high, imagine the pressure at the bottom!
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
113,507
12,865
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Low Earth Orbit
JLM asked me to ask you to explain what this says in layman's terms for him. Can you?

The temperature record over hundreds of millennia holds fundamental information about the dynamics inherent in climate variability. Analysis of paleoclimate temperature records from the Vostok, GISP2, and EPICA Dome C ice cores show single power scaling exponents ranging from 1.5 to 1.7 over time ranges of hundreds to thousands of years. Previous studies have reported multiple scaling exponents ranging from 0.5 to 2.0. Compaction of the ice cores and intervals of erosion introduce gaps into the paleoclimate temperature records. Previous studies have not considered the impact of these gaps on the scaling exponent output by the analysis methods. The Lomb periodogram method of analysis is found to either under or over estimate the scaling exponent of gapped time series depending on the number, size, and pattern of the gaps. The correct scaling exponent of a paleoclimate time series with gaps can be determined by measuring the effect of the gaps on the scaling exponent of a synthetic time series of known scaling exponent, with data points removed corresponding to gaps in the paleoclimate record. Gap-corrected scaling exponents for the Vostok, GISP2, and EPICA ice core temperature records are 1.7, 1.5, and 1.5, respectively. The method was further validated on a natural data set. By introducing gaps to the evenly sampled Dome Fuji core temperature record, analyzing the data, and correcting for the gaps, we obtain a scaling exponent equal to that of the original ungapped dataset. The power scaling exhibited by all of the ice core records analyzed demonstrates that climatic temperature variation is a nonlinear dynamical process. Climate models that correctly model the dynamics should exhibit similar power scaling properties.
 

waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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JLM asked me to ask you to explain what this says in layman's terms for him. Can you?

The temperature record over hundreds of millennia holds fundamental information about the dynamics inherent in climate variability. Analysis of paleoclimate temperature records from the Vostok, GISP2, and EPICA Dome C ice cores show single power scaling exponents ranging from 1.5 to 1.7 over time ranges of hundreds to thousands of years. Previous studies have reported multiple scaling exponents ranging from 0.5 to 2.0. Compaction of the ice cores and intervals of erosion introduce gaps into the paleoclimate temperature records. Previous studies have not considered the impact of these gaps on the scaling exponent output by the analysis methods. The Lomb periodogram method of analysis is found to either under or over estimate the scaling exponent of gapped time series depending on the number, size, and pattern of the gaps. The correct scaling exponent of a paleoclimate time series with gaps can be determined by measuring the effect of the gaps on the scaling exponent of a synthetic time series of known scaling exponent, with data points removed corresponding to gaps in the paleoclimate record. Gap-corrected scaling exponents for the Vostok, GISP2, and EPICA ice core temperature records are 1.7, 1.5, and 1.5, respectively. The method was further validated on a natural data set. By introducing gaps to the evenly sampled Dome Fuji core temperature record, analyzing the data, and correcting for the gaps, we obtain a scaling exponent equal to that of the original ungapped dataset. The power scaling exhibited by all of the ice core records analyzed demonstrates that climatic temperature variation is a nonlinear dynamical process. Climate models that correctly model the dynamics should exhibit similar power scaling properties.

please sir... per CC rules, you have not properly provided a linked reference to your "layman" quotation! Please do so :mrgreen:

When you have a pile of ice a mile high, imagine the pressure at the bottom!

my gawd man! Are you an alarmist... all that lube at the bottom... aren't those ice-sheets just going to fall into the sea? So... none of the melting... none... is due to warming? None of it? Really... oh wait, are you one of THOSE guys that actually states "it's not warming". I haven't got all the players down yet... so, is that your position, that there is no warming?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
please sir... per CC rules, you have not properly provided a linked reference to your "layman" quotation! Please do so :mrgreen:



my gawd man! Are you an alarmist... all that lube at the bottom... aren't those ice-sheets just going to fall into the sea? So... none of the melting... none... is due to warming? None of it? Really... oh wait, are you one of THOSE guys that actually states "it's not warming". I haven't got all the players down yet... so, is that your position, that there is no warming?


For the Antarctic very minimal. Occasionally temperatures along coast reach the 50s F. So there's probably a little dripping around the edges.
 

waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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He wants to know. Ask him. Are you avoiding it?

What was posted is public domain without copyright.

Answer him please.

really, you were asked... to ask me - care to provide a copy of that ask, with proper time notation? Is this your way of avoiding those pointed questions you keep dodging about the Holocene Optimum correlation to today's warming? Is this your latest dodge?

as for your public domain copyright BS...

- a link to your quoted statements (the study abstract) as appears on the SAO/NASA Astrophysics Data System(ADS)

- as a part of the ADS Terms & Conditions: copyright reference and request to acknowledge usage by including such a phrase as, "This research has made use of NASA's Astrophysics Data System Bibliographic Services." You're welcome... now, again, you really should abide by CC rules and fully qualify your use of the abstract:



For the Antarctic very minimal. Occasionally temperatures along coast reach the 50s F. So there's probably a little dripping around the edges.

has your described ice "pressure melting" intensified since 1995, and if so, why so? (image per sciencemag.org)




Glaciology Experts Agree Global Warming Is Melting the World Rapidly


Forty-seven glaciologists have arrived at a community consensus over all the data on what the past century's warming has done to the great ice sheets: a current annual loss of 344 billion tons of glacial ice, accounting for 20% of current sea level rise. Greenland's share—about 263 billion tons—is roughly what most researchers expected, but Antarctica's represents the first agreement on a rate that had ranged from a far larger loss to an actual gain. The new analysis, published on page 1183 of this week's issue of Science, also makes it clear that losses from Greenland and West Antarctica have been accelerating, showing that some ice sheets are disconcertingly sensitive to warming.
 
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Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
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I know that warm water forms ice more than cold water because otherwise why would there be record amounts of sea ice in the Antarctic. We all know that the oceans are warming.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
I know that warm water forms ice more than cold water because otherwise why would there be record amounts of sea ice in the Antarctic. We all know that the oceans are warming.


I think I could argue that. We are constantly being told sea level is rising! And what causes sea level to rise? One thing I can think of is larger volume of water. What contributes to this larger volume of water? From what we've been told glacier melt mainly from the poles and Greenland. So I have a hard time believing the oceans are warming up when water at 0.01C is being added and the average ocean temp. around the world is about 10C. Don't need any fancy f**king graphs to figure that sh*t out.:)
 

waldo

House Member
Oct 19, 2009
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I know that warm water forms ice more than cold water because otherwise why would there be record amounts of sea ice in the Antarctic. We all know that the oceans are warming.

good on ya Walter! That's one contributing factor... see also ozone levels decreasing over the Antarctic with an accompanying increase in the strength of cyclonic winds, in turn, creating polynyas (open water areas) that freeze to increase sea-ice.

Increasing Antarctic Sea Ice under Warming Atmospheric and Oceanic Conditions

The model shows that an increase in surface air temperature and downward longwave radiation results in an increase in the upper-ocean temperatureand a decrease in sea ice growth, leading to a decrease in salt rejection from ice, in the upper-ocean salinity,and in the upper-ocean density. The reduced salt rejection and upper-ocean density and the enhanced thermohaline stratification tend to suppress convective overturning, leading to a decrease in the upwardocean heat transport and the ocean heat flux available to melt sea ice. The ice melting from ocean heat fluxdecreases faster than the ice growth does in the weakly stratified Southern Ocean, leading to an increase in the net ice production and hence an increase in ice mass. This mechanism is the main reason why the Antarctic sea ice has increased in spite of warming conditions both above and below during the period 1979–2004 and the extended period 1948–2004
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
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Red Deer AB
Your BS isn't worth any more than a casual drive by.
Lets see if 'hatred for democracy' can exhibit itself on this topic (rather than thew dynamics of politics)
Sunspots get a lot of attention as being the cause of global warming and cooling for both the mini ice-ages and the much longer lasting ones. The same condition can't be the cause of two different events. Nor does a sunspot being 10 deg cooler mean we feel any effect. when an embers goes between you and a bonfire you don't suddenly shiver. That leaves you without a mechanism until you look at the age of the oceanic crust and the 40,000 miles of rift it contains. Using today's math you can determine how much heat the water gets over the time it takes for magma to turn from molten to the crust as all that heat made it into the water at some point. If it releases the heat that comes from the spreading of 1"/yr and suddenly it is going at 6"/yr and that happens for 500,000 years before during and after. In that 1.5M years has the climate changed on any of the land areas. If yes is a possible answer and the maps shows that the Pacific spread farther in the same time compared to the Atlantic does that mean the Pacific could have experience climatic changes that would not show up in the records that border the Atlantic?

Let's see if you get even that far.
 

Zipperfish

House Member
Apr 12, 2013
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Vancouver
It's the sun stupid.


The Waldocene Minimum




Mending Fences | Watts Up With That?

The graph kind of demonstrates tyhe case for global warming. Solar irradiance down, temperature up, of late.

I think I could argue that. We are constantly being told sea level is rising! And what causes sea level to rise? One thing I can think of is larger volume of water. What contributes to this larger volume of water? From what we've been told glacier melt mainly from the poles and Greenland. So I have a hard time believing the oceans are warming up when water at 0.01C is being added and the average ocean temp. around the world is about 10C. Don't need any fancy f**king graphs to figure that sh*t out.:)

Thermal expansion also causes sea level to rise. Water has a maximum density around 4 deg C. At temperatures higher (or lower) than that it expands. So if the ocean warms up, on average, there is no need to add any water to it to see a rise in sea level.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,666
113
Northern Ontario,
The graph kind of demonstrates tyhe case for global warming. Solar irradiance down, temperature up, of late.



Thermal expansion also causes sea level to rise. Water has a maximum density around 4 deg C. At temperatures higher (or lower) than that it expands. So if the ocean warms up, on average, there is no need to add any water to it to see a rise in sea level.
BTW a 60 degree Celsius difference in temperature will increase the volume of 1 liter of water to 1.0126 liter..and that would mean such increase would have to go all the way to the bottom of the ocean for any measurable difference..
So this theory is a non issue.....