Oh please. I read the list of deserters. Some of them never even went over to Iraq or Afghanistan.
It was refreshing though to see that Canada has deported a few of them already.
Ottawa to make Canada less inviting for U.S. deserters
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
Oh please. I read the list of deserters. Some of them never even went over to Iraq or Afghanistan.
It was refreshing though to see that Canada has deported a few of them already.
Hats off to you for being full of yourself Mr. Bear! As if those not on your side are necessarily wrong.
Yes, once you get in the army, you should know what you're getting into. But the army is NOT an infinitely wise entity who necessarily does the best thing for its country and the rest of the world. I'm not saying it can't do good. I'm saying it doesn't necessarily do good. And in the cases where it doesn't do good, deserting is a very sensible option. There's nothing cowardly about refusing to sacrifice your life for a bunch of lying politicians.
Can you really say the US army served its citizens by fighting in Vietnam? Those who deserted the army to avoid that war have all my sympathy.
Whether you agree with the Irak and Afghan wars is entirely personal. And the ethical judgment of deserters all depends on context.
And of course, we all know we'd be fighting in Irak right now, had the Cons been in power in 2003. The same applies to Iggy also!
:roll:
Full stop.
I have nothing else to add, you just said it all, again correcting those, I previously alluded to. Thank you.
The U,S, has the best Veterans Administration and benefits in the world for our disabled veterans and in most cases those with problems are taken care of ASAP. It takes no courage to run off to Canada, usually they run off before anything happens to them anyway, just scared little boys and girls. Canada does not need anymore of our weaklings. People who just stand by and watch the world go by doing no more than criticizing, really have no say in the outcome. (I mean which ever side you chose be active in your convictions) Those who chose to run away from their obligations are cowards, Many chose to stay and take the punishment which was minimal. Those I respect.
Wow. That's some lazy wiggling out! And if the army suddenly started ordering its soldiers to rape all women of the country they are fighting in, you'd still say that to a deserter?... ''You should have known what you are getting into!''
How about an intelligent answer to this point:
The judgement of deserter should never be absolute and always depend on the context, i.e, the situation in which the deserting was done.
What would you think of North Korean or Iranian deserters hiding in Canada. Would you be desperate to send them back?
Does taking the punishment mean going to jail and getting raped?
No wiggling and I'm more than capable of being verbose when need be s_lone. Please do try and at least pretend you know me better then that.
And if suddenly the moon turned into cheese?
Do you have anymore fanciful and asinine simile's?
How about the US Supreme Courts ruling on contentious objectors?
How about the US Armed Forces classification of 1-A-O.
How about desertion was not and is not the only option, for the voluntarily enlisted.
How about you knock off your condescending attitude and drop the bias.
Were they conscripted?
You seem to be under the impression I have a singularly dimensional view on this matter. You should avoid making such assumptions. You kow what they say about assumptions right?
I've been to jail and prison. I was never raped.
Sometimes all that free food and training comes in handy.
You talk about intelligence and give the most ridiculous "what if?" above?
So, are these guys and gals getting raped in the brig?
Agreed. There are so many other ways to get out of it. Sure you will get court martialed and most likely discharged. A soldier that simply says...
"I'm not going to go"
... is going to become a liability over there.
These guys and gals who jumped to Canada wanted to avoid any kind of punishment for their decision. So for going to Canada instead of getting a Less that Honorable or a Bad Conduct Discharge at most, they will most likely get a Dishonorable Discharge. So as I said, send them home, they will face the music, get their DHs and then they can go back to Canada and live off your government. When you have a DH Discharge there is not a heck of a lot you can do here.
To true!
Unfortunately, AI considers anyone being charged, court martialed and imprisoned for being AWOL, because they did wish to be deployed to either Afghanistan or Iraq, a prisoner of conscience.
Which is what we see in the bleeding hearts here in Canada. The present Gov'ts position on this, is about the only policy they have, that I agree with. Again, we're not talking about draftees here eh.
Well they are a burden to Canada IMO. I predict that 99% of these folks will end up back in the USA at some point so Canada should relieve itself of them and send them back post haste and save themselves some money.
These deserters have no merit to stay here as far as I am concerned. They were not conscripted, they willingly chose to join the US armed forces. There are other ways for them to get out of their obligations then running to Canada like a bunch of cowards.
Canada is an immigration dumping ground though, so this is to be expected.
Canada is an immigration dumping ground though, so this is to be expected.
Don't you read contracts before you sign them?
If that's the issue, then they should have written in a clause threat they could refuse any command in violation of any national or international law.
Sure the military would likely refuse to sign it in that case, in which case you don't join. Pretty straightforward, no?
Personally though, I would say that the criteria for accepting a deserter into Canada should meet at least the following criteria:
1. He was given a direct command in violation of an international law, such as the Geneva Convention for example,
2. He should have requested alternative service that would not require him to violate any international law and was denied that option,
3. He should have exhausted all legal venues at the national level in his country or at the international level such as at the Hague, and was blocked by his country from seeking justice at either level.
This is just a preliminary brainstorm and so I could change my mind later, but at the moment until I read other comments, I think that would be a fair benchmark.
Somehow though, I doubt many deserters would meet these standards.
Or to take another example:
If a US soldier deserts claiming he was given orders to commit some kind of war crime, we explain to him that that's a serious accusation, that it will therefore have to be brought before the international community, and that if it's found to be true, then he'll have helped many future US soldiers; but if not, making false accusations is a criminal offense. That would likely let the deserter know that we take such claims seriously and that he'd better not make them too frivolously or he could end up in a Canadian prison for a very long time.
I got a chuckle out of that. I am not laughing at you, but the idea that a potential recruit can add a clause. There already is a law in the UCMJ about disobeying an unlawful order. However AI and the UN holds no sway on what unlawful is with regards to the US Military.
Well that is what many are claiming whether they went overseas or not.
It just doesn't work that way. They could have joined the Navy. I don't think there are any Squids up there in Canada. It is mostly soldiers and a few Marines and one AF guy. The AF guy is probably the dumbest of all. What did he run for? He wasn't getting 10 hours a sleep per night? Not enough ice cream in the chow hall?
What could the Hague do for a soldier locked down at Ft. Bragg per se?
These guys are not leaving the field of battle. They are skipping over the border before they are deployed or simply just skipping over the border because they don't like the military. I think there is only one guy who crossed into Syria looking to get out of Iraq.
Actually, let me put myself in their shoes for a moment:
If I were a Canadian soldier given an illegal command, I'd:
1. Ascertain that the command is in fact illegal in accordance with either national or international laws,
2. Disobey the command and give my reasons why,
3. Ask for alternative service,
4. If denied alternative service, take the matter to a court martial or a civilian court,
5. or, if I should suspect the integrity of either court for any reason, then to the International Court of Justice (ICJ).
6. Should I be blocked from from option 5 above, then and only then would I consider defecting, unless I felt my life was at risk if I should try to contact the ICJ from within my own country, in which case I'd defect not to immigrate, but in the hopes that the host country could send me to the Hague to fight it out at the top.
Besides, if I were given an illegal command, and was a man of honour, should I not fight it out to the end in a way befitting of a soldier not only to protect myself from moral harm, but also future soldiers?
While I won't say all deserters have no valid reason, I do think while they should be given a chance, their claims need to be challenged to the fullest. And if they pass the test, then accepted; otherwise not.
This would make it difficult for 'deserters of convenience' and so would ensure any deserter to Canada has legitimate, valid, and honourables reasons to do so.
If I were a Canadian soldier given an illegal command, I'd:
1. Ascertain that the command is in fact illegal in accordance with either national or international laws,
2. Disobey the command and give my reasons why,
3. Ask for alternative service,
4. If denied alternative service, take the matter to a court martial or a civilian court,
5. or, if I should suspect the integrity of either court for any reason, then to the International Court of Justice (ICJ).
6. Should I be blocked from from option 5 above, then and only then would I consider defecting, unless I felt my life was at risk if I should try to contact the ICJ from within my own country, in which case I'd defect not to immigrate, but in the hopes that the host country could send me to the Hague to fight it out at the top.
Besides, if I were given an illegal command, and was a man of honour, should I not fight it out to the end in a way befitting of a soldier not only to protect myself from moral harm, but also future soldiers?
While I won't say all deserters have no valid reason, I do think while they should be given a chance, their claims need to be challenged to the fullest. And if they pass the test, then accepted; otherwise not.
This would make it difficult for 'deserters of convenience' and so would ensure any deserter to Canada has legitimate, valid, and honourables reasons to do so.
So did I, but you have to admit, for a civi, he's being pretty objective. At least from my perspective anyways.
As a kid I was in the postion to meet many Vietnam dodgers who stationed themselves in the Okanogan.
To this day I've yet to hear anyone scream in pain and fear as I did one night.
To this day I've yet to hear anyone scream in pain and fear as I did one night.
When I was on Red Mountain, I worked along side the oldest hippy I ever met. A Vietnam dodger and a great heavy duty mechanic. I also have family that served in Vietnam, as US Soldiers.
I know all to well about what you speak of petros.