Objection to some astronomers.

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
No ocean was in that region.
True, but a flood of that magnitude that recently would have left signs on the landscape and geologists and archeologists would have found them. They're not there. Besides, now you would have us believe that the disbelievers were confined to "the region of Nineveh in the north of Iraq near Mosul" if that's the only place the flood happened. That's roughly the zone between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, ancient Mesopotamia. Because of the topography of the area a major flood there, enough water to leave only a mountain top sticking up for the Ark to land on, which the Quran identifies as Al Judi and is generally thought to be a spot near the Turkish-Iranian border not far from Mt. Ararat where the Bible claims the Ark ended up, would spread far to the west and south, and there's no sign of it there either. The story's a fable. There are multiple flood myths from that area, and there are certainly signs that both the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers have flooded locally, but certainly not to the extent that either the Quran's or the Bible's version of the Noah's Ark story can be taken as true.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,643
7,631
113
Washington DC
True, but a flood of that magnitude that recently would have left signs on the landscape and geologists and archeologists would have found them. They're not there. Besides, now you would have us believe that the disbelievers were confined to "the region of Nineveh in the north of Iraq near Mosul" if that's the only place the flood happened. That's roughly the zone between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, ancient Mesopotamia. Because of the topography of the area a major flood there, enough water to leave only a mountain top sticking up for the Ark to land on, which the Quran identifies as Al Judi and is generally thought to be a spot near the Turkish-Iranian border not far from Mt. Ararat where the Bible claims the Ark ended up, would spread far to the west and south, and there's no sign of it there either. The story's a fable. There are multiple flood myths from that area, and there are certainly signs that both the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers have flooded locally, but certainly not to the extent that either the Quran's or the Bible's version of the Noah's Ark story can be taken as true.
The story was lifted from The Epic of Gilgamesh. Like pretty much everything else in Genesis.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ron in Regina

Jinentonix

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 6, 2015
10,890
5,537
113
Olympus Mons
I as a servant: I ask but do not object. This is the difference between me and you: blasphemers:
Right, in other words you're a mindless automaton that does what he's told by a book. Loser.
you - being so weak and miserable and dirty: carrying your dirt in your bowel and bladder - you object and do not recall your creation from a scanty seminal fluid.
You mean that stuff inside of men's balls? Yeah, the whole word knows how that works, except you apparently.
Quran 16: 4, which means:
(He created the human being from a scanty [seminal] fluid f, yet he becomes a manifest g opponent.)
Huh, and here I thought he made man from the dust of the Earth. Maybe you guys and the Christians and Jews can get together and get your bullshit straight.
..................................................................................................................................................................................

f Then as He perfected his creation, prepared for him the milk in the breast of his mother, took care of him, provided provision for him, made his parents kind to him, until he grew, and became older, then when he became a strong man, he started to oppose Our messengers.
g i.e. his enmity and opposition are evidently obvious.
Blah blah blah. You see your problem here is, in order for me to give a shit, I'd actually have to believe the horseshit your garbage quran spews. The quran does make for good fire starting material though.
 

Torch light

House Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,530
151
63
True, but a flood of that magnitude that recently would have left signs on the landscape and geologists and archeologists would have found them. They're not there. Besides, now you would have us believe that the disbelievers were confined to "the region of Nineveh in the north of Iraq near Mosul" if that's the only place the flood happened. That's roughly the zone between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, ancient Mesopotamia. Because of the topography of the area a major flood there, enough water to leave only a mountain top sticking up for the Ark to land on, which the Quran identifies as Al Judi and is generally thought to be a spot near the Turkish-Iranian border not far from Mt. Ararat where the Bible claims the Ark ended up, would spread far to the west and south, and there's no sign of it there either. The story's a fable. There are multiple flood myths from that area, and there are certainly signs that both the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers have flooded locally, but certainly not to the extent that either the Quran's or the Bible's version of the Noah's Ark story can be taken as true.
The mountain Al Judi mentioned in the Quran is one of the mountains of the Ararat range in Turkey.. no contradiction between the Torah and the Quran here.
The region where the flood happened was about the region of Nineveh near Mosul, a region called Ain Sifni which means: the ship and the water spring, an area inhabited by some Yezidi people.
The water started to gush from the 'pit used as oven for baking bread' of Noah's neighbor

1683752204394.jpeg

; she came and told him, and he said it was the sign for the start of the flood and so he told his companions to embark on the ship
The effects of the water waves are seen in the mountains there.
In the Quran, the water gushed from springs and heavy rain poured down, then when the case was accomplished, it was said by the angels: O earth swallow your water, O clouds go away, and the water receded and the affair was concluded: to terminate the disbelievers.
So water collected in a short time period and then receded as it came.
None can deny God's miracles and wonders going on till now: like floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/11.htm#a11_40
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
None can deny God's miracles and wonders going on till now: like floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.
None? I can, and do. There are perfectly satisfactory natural explanations for those, no need to invoke the supernatural. If you know nothing of science and read only the Bible or the Quran, or both, and are asked to describe the physical universe based on what you read there, you'll get it wrong, as you often demonstrate.
 

Torch light

House Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,530
151
63
You are materialistic; I am not. I believe in the Unknown or the Unseen as told to us in the Quran and the other heavenly books.
Therefore, you deny Noah, and say it is a fable, while it is not; you only follow the doubt and the uncertainty and say it is fable and insist on that. So, if it is true (and it is in fact true) and you deny it?
You may deny Moses, Jesus or the rest of the prophets, and before everything you deny God the Creator depending on your materialistic view and doubting.
Anyhow, you cannot deny in this way.. you may say: I doubt, but cannot affirm that
 

Torch light

House Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,530
151
63
These are the two parties and their views: believers believe in God and give their proofs, while disbelievers give negative answers and always say: where is the evidence in spite of all evidence that there must be the Creator?

God - be glorified - in the Quran tells us about two men after the Final Judgment is concluded in the Hereafter, one believed about the Hereafter and the other disbelieved:

Quran 37: 51-57, which mean:
(51. One of the [believers in Paradise will] say: "I had [In the life of the World] a mate."
52. "Who used to say: "Are you really [one] of those who believe!?"
53. "Is [it true] that when we die and become dust and [rotten] bones, shall be requited?"
54. The [believer will] say [to his brethren: the believers in Paradise]: "Would you like to [go up to a high place in Paradise to] look down [at this mate?]"
55. He [will] look down [at his mate] and see him in the midst of Hell.
56. He [will] say: "By God! you were about to make me fall [with you in the Pit.]"
57. "And had it not been for the grace of my Lord, I should have been among the arraigned [together with you in the fire.]" b)
....................................................................................................................................,...................................................................................................................

b The ether world is different from the matter world; for souls hear each other if he talks to him, even though he is far away from other one; just as we hear the one who speaks by telephone, the wireless, or the radio even though they are far away from us.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/37.htm#a37_51
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
Anyhow, you cannot deny in this way.. you may say: I doubt, but cannot affirm that
Even allowing for the fact that English isn't your first language, I can't make any sense of that. I can indeed deny in this way, I've been doing it consistently all through this thread, and many of your other threads, and I can certainly affirm that I doubt. The key to clear and critical thinking is that doubt is the default position when presented with a claim, until the evidence and arguments are presented in support of it. If they're adequate to establish its truth, it'll be accepted, but you also need to recognize that all claims but the trivial are provisional to some degree, pending receipt of further evidence. You've produced no evidence for any of your claims, merely assertions from the authority of various texts, mostly the Quran and Al-Hilly's interpretation of it, so I continue to doubt most of what you claim. That's the method of scientific thinking that you've accused me of not following, while trying to claim that your belief "in the Unknown or the Unseen" is the better approach. It eludes me how, if it's unknown and unseen, you can find any basis for believing any of it.

If faith and revelation are valid ways to acquire reliable knowledge, they should produce consistent results and conclusions. That they don't, as attested by the great variety of religious beliefs and experiences people report having, means they don't work that way. Jews for instance believe the Messiah is yet to arrive, Christians believe he's been and gone and will return, sooner or later depending on which sect of Christianity is involved, and you, depending on which sect of Islam you belong to, might be awaiting the appearance of the 12th Imam as a harbinger of the end times. Obviously at least two of those conclusions must be wrong, but it's faith and revelation that's produced them all, and the most rational approach, considering the lack of evidence for any of them, is to conclude all three are wrong. Which I've done.
 

Torch light

House Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,530
151
63
Even allowing for the fact that English isn't your first language, I can't make any sense of that. I can indeed deny in this way, I've been doing it consistently all through this thread, and many of your other threads, and I can certainly affirm that I doubt. The key to clear and critical thinking is that doubt is the default position when presented with a claim, until the evidence and arguments are presented in support of it. If they're adequate to establish its truth, it'll be accepted, but you also need to recognize that all claims but the trivial are provisional to some degree, pending receipt of further evidence. You've produced no evidence for any of your claims, merely assertions from the authority of various texts, mostly the Quran and Al-Hilly's interpretation of it, so I continue to doubt most of what you claim. That's the method of scientific thinking that you've accused me of not following, while trying to claim that your belief "in the Unknown or the Unseen" is the better approach. It eludes me how, if it's unknown and unseen, you can find any basis for believing any of it.

If faith and revelation are valid ways to acquire reliable knowledge, they should produce consistent results and conclusions. That they don't, as attested by the great variety of religious beliefs and experiences people report having, means they don't work that way. Jews for instance believe the Messiah is yet to arrive, Christians believe he's been and gone and will return, sooner or later depending on which sect of Christianity is involved, and you, depending on which sect of Islam you belong to, might be awaiting the appearance of the 12th Imam as a harbinger of the end times. Obviously at least two of those conclusions must be wrong, but it's faith and revelation that's produced them all, and the most rational approach, considering the lack of evidence for any of them, is to conclude all three are wrong. Which I've done.
I said before, might be more than once that the Quran differs from the other available heavenly books included in the Bible.. the Quran differs in that it includes arguments and evidence; i.e. God gives the evidence by telling the Prophet: say to them so and so .. that is in reply to the objections of disbelievers: the idolaters and the atheists.
So when I present the argument of the Quran: I achieve two purposes: to show people the arguments of the Quran and its marvels and at the same time I answer their objections.
Another point about the Mahdi: I don't believe in the 12th imam as the Mahdi which is a fable and an invented story, but the Mahdi is Abu Abd-Allah: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly with his Quran interpretation and his marks and his inviting people to God alone with no associate, peer, son, equal or patron, and to devote their worship to God alone and not to any imam or saint.
 

Torch light

House Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,530
151
63
Examples of the arguments of the Quran:

The atheists who deny God and the Hereafter:

Quran 45: 24, which means:
They a say: "There is nothing but our [present] Worldly life; we die and [our children] live b, and nothing but Time [factors] destroy us. c "

[So God – be glorified – said:]
Of that they have no knowledge e, they merely conjecture f.
.................................................................................................................................................................................

24 a i.e. the deniers of the sending to the Hereafter, and of the Judgment.
24 b It means: Our children will be instead of us, and there isn’t after this life any other life, such as you threaten us with, neither is there any angel to seize our spirits, as you say.
24 c It means: the means of death are not else than only disease, murder, drowning, burn, or aging.
24 e Because they are in a material world, and they do not know anything about the ether world: the world of souls, and they do not believe in it until they go to it following their death.
24 f They depend on guessing, not on true facts.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/45.htm#a45_24
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,643
7,631
113
Washington DC
Examples of the arguments of the Quran:

The atheists who deny God and the Hereafter:

Quran 45: 24, which means:
They a say: "There is nothing but our [present] Worldly life; we die and [our children] live b, and nothing but Time [factors] destroy us. c "

[So God – be glorified – said:]
Of that they have no knowledge e, they merely conjecture f.
.................................................................................................................................................................................

24 a i.e. the deniers of the sending to the Hereafter, and of the Judgment.
24 b It means: Our children will be instead of us, and there isn’t after this life any other life, such as you threaten us with, neither is there any angel to seize our spirits, as you say.
24 c It means: the means of death are not else than only disease, murder, drowning, burn, or aging.
24 e Because they are in a material world, and they do not know anything about the ether world: the world of souls, and they do not believe in it until they go to it following their death.
24 f They depend on guessing, not on true facts.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/45.htm#a45_24
"True facts" being the unsupported word of a seventh-century barbarian.
 

Torch light

House Member
Dec 4, 2017
3,530
151
63
Another example of the arguments of the Quran:

The deniers of the Hereafter:

Quran 45: 25-26
, which mean:
25. When Our revelations are rehearsed to them, being obvious [revelations], their only argument is that they say: "Bring our [dead] fathers [to life again] if you are telling the truth."

26. {{ Say, [O Mohammed, to them] }}: "It is God Who makes you live [the first life in the womb], then makes you die, then gathers you [in the Barzakh world or the Afterlife] till Doomsday about which there is no doubt; but most people do not know [the truth.] n
..............................................................................................................................................................................................................

n Therefore, contemplate the words of the aya, and think about its meaning: for God – be glorified – did not mention any life after He mentioned the death, but He said that (He "gathers" you [in the Barzakh world] till Doomsday.)

quran-ayat.com/pret/45.htm#a45_25