North American Shale

[hunboldt]

There's more to Lynnview Ridge than made the local news.... I had a friend with Komex that was integral in that project and when you dig into the details, you'll understand that the city is more at fault than anyone else.

To cut to the chase on that site; once the tank farm was decommissioned and remediated to the standard set by the prov/city - the result is that the land was supposed to be zoned only for light commercial/industrial.... We now know, after the fact, that it had greater worth (muni taxes) as residential and was developed accordingly.

There's more to this story, but that is one where the oil company followed the rules and got burned... (btw - ask yourself why it was a quickie investigation where the company didn't really fight at all - you may be surprised with the speculative analysis)

Not exactly - I lived there , Sat on the MOCA board for a while.

the tank farm and the oil refinery were north of the old CNO tracks. The 'Green belt' south of the tracks was to be kept, under the 1957 agreement , as 'greenbelt'- Imperial had leased it out as farmland...This was the area where the toxic waste was spread , that became Lynnview Ridge', and part the 'Milliken Light Industrial' after the refinery was demolished in 1975.

Your friend is thinking of the SPRUNG greenhouses lawsuit at Old refinery park. Imperial had leased the land to Sprung.

 

[Nick Danger]

Your friend is thinking of the SPRUNG greenhouses lawsuit at Old refinery park. Imperial had leased the land to Sprung.

Wasn't that the grand hydroponics experiment that was going to get veggies from seed to market in a month ? Heard the guy got a bucket of money from th Newfoundland gov't to try it out there after the greenhouses in Calgary went kaput from toxic soil. But I digress.

Poor waste water management was being touted as one of the problems in Pennsylvania, but the root of that was that somewhere along the line the oil & gas industry in the US was given an exemption from the Clean Water Act which rendered the EPA pretty much toothless. I hope the regulatory agencies in Canada can keep the manpower on hand to deal with keeping an eye on things, I don't know how things are in other provinces but our new Premier here in BC is pretty much laying out the red carpet for LNG developers up in Peace River country.

 

[hunboldt]

Wasn't that the grand hydroponics experiment that was going to get veggies from seed to market in a month ? Heard the guy got a bucket of money from th Newfoundland gov't to try it out there after the greenhouses in Calgary went kaput from toxic soil. But I digress.

Poor waste water management was being touted as one of the problems in Pennsylvania, but the root of that was that somewhere along the line the oil & gas industry in the US was given an exemption from the Clean Water Act which rendered the EPA pretty much toothless. I hope the regulatory agencies in Canada can keep the manpower on hand to deal with keeping an eye on things, I don't know how things are in other provinces but our new Premier here in BC is pretty much laying out the red carpet for LNG developers up in Peace River country.

YOu are exactly right, Nick. The oil refinery tank farm that CM referred to was actually located at Beaver Dam Flats, and was cleaned up between 1989 and 1991.

The deal history between the city and the refinery site is rather , well, secretive. Imperial traded the land for the Deerfoot interchange in return for refinery rehabilitation concessions, and that is 'sealed away'.

The 'land spreading' of the toxic wastes was a 'poor decision'- but what is unexplainable was the decision to market the land through Devonian , then NU West, for housing years later. Imperial / EXXON is a huge operation. If they had said 'OK, there is some land contamination so we are donating it as wildlife parkland in perpetuity Calgary would have erected statues to them.

( corr to prev posts the total fine and land remediation costs are approx. 72 million as of 2011-12. Devonian is controlled by Imperial Oil, Nu- west was the developer )

 

[hunboldt]

That would be correct to a degree. Someone actively engaged in the trade may see regulations as "tightassed" for any number of reasons, but as someone who draws a living from the trade they would also have a good motive for bias. There are also those on the other side of the issue who claim regulations and inspections are not tightassed enough. Who do I believe?

http://www.fracktrack.org/searchexp.php?p=op_name&val=OGO-10897
The farther you are from 'civilization', the more fast and loose HF is. Tight gas wells produce for up to several decades.
Once a producing well is in place, systems degrade 'over time'- pipe and liners rust, cement degrades. Its a question of what is the best alternatives- what trade offs do you make?

Wells leak a lot less than they used to.

As to:
When I refer to after-the -fact costs are things like skimping on cementing or casing (that could, maybe, result in upper zone contamination)... Skimping on those costs will have an impact on the integrity of the well and affect the number of boepd that are extracted... Think of slicing a cut in a straw and then drinking soda through it - not as effective as a non-cut straw. This has a direct result on the value of the well (production) let alone proving-up the field.

In addition, as a general description, an oil reserve, in order to exist as an economically viable opportunity, has a 'cap rock' (zone) and a base rock... That oil needs to be 'trapped' by other (denser) geologic formations such that is it contained in an area.... Although possible, fracking through the base/cap rock is possible, it would screw the formation and allow the oil to migrate elsewhere into zones that the company may not have the rights to (or reasonable ability to extract from).

CM, Junior O&g companies go broke every week - usually because they can't meet standards when the older wells they operate cost too much to repair.

Absolutely. Just as Pennsylvania was the the source of most of our oil in the early days. There the oil is so easily accessible it bubbled to the surface in pools. At the time, Texas oil was "inaccessible." Well, techniques advance, and by WWII, we had the techniques to tap Texas' reserves, which were vastly greater than Pennsylvania's.

Similarly, the oil domes in the Middle East are fairly shallow and feature great big pools of crude. Easier to get to and extract than shale oil. But the techniques for extracting from shale, once clumsy and prohibitively expensive, have benefited from higher oil prices, economies of scale, and refinement of technique. By the latest estimates, North America may have more total petroleum than the rest of the world combined. More than enough to be self-sufficient at any rate. And with costs falling and prices high, we can get at more and more of it.

On the other hand, it would be mean but funny to drain every last drop of Middle Eastern oil, then wave a fond farewell and let them carry on being tribes of squabbling desert throwbacks. But for the oil, who gives a damn about the Middle East?

Unfortunately, we went through a long spell of low Natural Gas prices when wells were maintained at 'less than NASA standards".
surprise surprise..

T-bones, the first thing they teach Junior O & G company execs is how to Bullpoop shareholders, err 'esteemed investors', err- the marks...

You fnally find out about it at the 'receivership emergency shareholders meeting'. Been there.

There are multiple decades of info - that's plenty of effort... Time for you (or group) to apply your time, money and resources to prove a point



Like TB indicated, define the problem in terms of cause/effect.... In order for any solution to be tabled, clear definition of the problem is essential.

At this point, all that is happening is that you are arbitrarily assessing causation to fracking without any basis to do so.... By the way, an unconfiormed relationship doesn't count as causation.

That said, seeing how you are so passionate about this, put up your own time and money and generate some deliverables... Perpetually demanding that others do it is a cop-out

“...he'll come back. We all come back, kate. These private little revolutions always die. The compromise is always made. In a peculiar way. Frank is right-- every man does have a star. The star of one's honesty. And you spend your life groping for it, but once it's out it never lights again. I don't think he went very far. He probably just wanted to be alone to watch his star go out.”

CM. go see 'all my sons' the next it's in Calgary.

 

[captain morgan]

Not exactly - I lived there , Sat on the MOCA board for a while.

the tank farm and the oil refinery were north of the old CNO tracks. The 'Green belt' south of the tracks was to be kept, under the 1957 agreement , as 'greenbelt'- Imperial had leased it out as farmland...This was the area where the toxic waste was spread , that became Lynnview Ridge', and part the 'Milliken Light Industrial' after the refinery was demolished in 1975.

Your friend is thinking of the SPRUNG greenhouses lawsuit at Old refinery park. Imperial had leased the land to Sprung.

At the time, my friend was working on the residential contamination. The phase 1 includes all of the background/historical research in the efforts and my earlier comment was a basic reflection of his comments at the time.

Getting back to my earlier position, there is no way that the site should have ever been used as residential and that is entirely the fault of the city for allowing such. Due to any residual toxins that are bound to remain, that entire area should have been capped by black top or a physical building on it.

In terms of the remediation standards, a brownfield site is only safe for non-residential and has a different set of standards applied... It was the municipality (or maybe province for all I know) that approved a residential development.

That said, how is it that the city was never required to bear any responsibility for their greedy decision? Hanging Imperial for the city's stupidity is kinda what happened here

 

[hunboldt]

At the time, my friend was working on the residential contamination. The phase 1 includes all of the background/historical research in the efforts and my earlier comment was a basic reflection of his comments at the time.

Getting back to my earlier position, there is no way that the site should have ever been used as residential and that is entirely the fault of the city for allowing such. Due to any residual toxins that are bound to remain, that entire area should have been capped by black top or a physical building on it.

In terms of the remediation standards, a brownfield site is only safe for non-residential and has a different set of standards applied... It was the municipality (or maybe province for all I know) that approved a residential development.

That said, how is it that the city was never required to bear any responsibility for their greedy decision? Hanging Imperial for the city's stupidity is kinda what happened here

I guess we should have voted Bob Hawkesworth for Mayor, in 2010
Bob Hawkesworth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bob wanted to run the SE - LRT as far as the Bow river, cap the site with concrete, and use it for downtown parking- shuttle people in and out. Its still the best plan. Keep the rainwater off.
Land farming of toxic waste, if you do it at all, should be done at the arid alkali blow outs out by Pollockville & area.

Imperial's huge mistake was to try to cover a bad decision made by exec's long retired.

I quit the MOCA community association board in 2009 because I thought we should fight for the Hawkesworth plan. But I was new, and the Old Board Execs were was just bone tired from the long , long battles. Whole new board now.

 

[captain morgan]

Fair enough, but none of this answers the question relative to why the City allowed for the land to be zoned as residential

 

[hunboldt]

There are multiple decades of info - that's plenty of effort... Time for you (or group) to apply your time, money and resources to prove a point



Like TB indicated, define the problem in terms of cause/effect.... In order for any solution to be tabled, clear definition of the problem is essential.

At this point, all that is happening is that you are arbitrarily assessing causation to fracking without any basis to do so.... By the way, an unconfiormed relationship doesn't count as causation.

That said, seeing how you are so passionate about this, put up your own time and money and generate some deliverables... Perpetually demanding that others do it is a cop-out

Well- CM- there comes a time when every fractured gas well is sold off to Junior O&G, who patch and milk then until the inspectors catch up with it. Tight formation gas wells are long , slow producers. Steel rusts, concrete degrades.

Maybe the NASA wells never leak .

#267Re: North American Shale

17 minutes ago


Fair enough, but none of this answers the question relative to why the City allowed for the land to be zoned as residential

"Darned B- crats. Too many rules and regs. How's a wildcatter gonna make a livin'?"

 

[captain morgan]

Well- CM- there comes a time when every fractured gas well is sold off to Junior O&G, who patch and milk then until the inspectors catch up with it. Tight formation gas wells are long , slow producers. Steel rusts, concrete degrades.

Maybe the NASA wells never leak .

That's life in the big city... You're always going to have some group/individual make a mistake and pawn-off something into the market. I don't care what industry/sector you're talking about - it happens and it impacts someone, something, the environment, etc.

BTW - If you ever decide to invest in junior O&G again, invest in management and not the promoters. On that note, stay away from broker/lawyer sponsored CPC's; they too are a money trap (great for the founders and sh*tty for everyone else)

 

[Nick Danger]

Is there a preferred method of dealing with waste water in the Canadian "gas patch" or is it a mix of various options? Injection wells ? Evaporation ? Filtration ?

 

[hunboldt]

That's life in the big city... You're always going to have some group/individual make a mistake and pawn-off something into the market. I don't care what industry/sector you're talking about - it happens and it impacts someone, something, the environment, etc.

BTW - If you ever decide to invest in junior O&G again, invest in management and not the promoters. On that note, stay away from broker/lawyer sponsored CPC's; they too are a money trap (great for the founders and sh*tty for everyone else)

You're a bright guy- I take back a lot of earlier 'stuff.'

REDSTAR 'bet"; on gas prices rising to 8-10.00 per MCF, so the CEO, Krala, bought up a lot of gas wells in the Horn river formation.
But gas stayed low, and the Horn is expensive country - distance, Muskeg, etc. a lot of stuff got 'patched' , because the money wasn't there to properly refurbish wells.

Twenty years ago, I sold a lot of H2SO4, which is great for blasting tight pores open, but real heck on casings in the long run. I'm sure a lot of it ended up in Frac mix- or diluting used hydrofluoric acid.

Funny stuff happens when gas prices are marginal.

 

[captain morgan]

Is there a preferred method of dealing with waste water in the Canadian "gas patch" or is it a mix of various options? Injection wells ? Evaporation ? Filtration ?

Gas wells will see a strong opportunity for re-injection into a disposal well. I am unsure if there is any tech available that can filter-out solubles (although they likely exist). Evaporation may work to flash-off the light ends and reduce the volume of waste water at which point it can be injected or taken to a hazmat landfill

You're a bright guy- I take back a lot of earlier 'stuff.'

REDSTAR 'bet"; on gas prices rising to 8-10.00 per MCF, so the CEO, Krala, bought up a lot of gas wells in the Horn river formation.
But gas stayed low, and the Horn is expensive country - distance, Muskeg, etc. a lot of stuff got 'patched' , because the money wasn't there to properly refurbish wells.

Twenty years ago, I sold a lot of H2SO4, which is great for blasting tight pores open, but real heck on casings in the long run. I'm sure a lot of it ended up in Frac mix- or diluting used hydrofluoric acid.

Funny stuff happens when gas prices are marginal.

There are a number of companies that bet that gas prices would recover and bought-up cheap plays... Horn river is really expensive country; didn't they have any liquids from that?

If you ever decide to get back into a gas play - do so with a company that has the game-plan (and ability) to hold the asset at least for the medium term and not have to operate if they don't want. You'll see more PrivateCo's be able to do that... In fact, I know of a private group that dropped $31MM in the last year buying-up uneconomic gas plays and shut-ins specifically with that play in mind... Some of those assets can be bought for less than the replacement cost of the infrastructure, pumps, etc - the actual gas is essentially free

 

[DaSleeper]

To frack or not to frack.....

Light Your Water On Fire from Gas Drilling, Fracking - YouTube

 

[SLM]

To frack or not to frack.....

That is the fracking question.

Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer....ahem, sorry, don't know where that came from.

 

[hunboldt]

Is there a preferred method of dealing with waste water in the Canadian "gas patch" or is it a mix of various options? Injection wells ? Evaporation ? Filtration ?

I'm not a expert, however, wind evaporation appeals to me.
the Bakken area is naturally arid, and has a lot of solenetzic areas where you can truck the concentrated residues and let them degrade.
Soils of Saskatchewan - Solonetzic Soils