No Respect for Khadr
- Thread starter Logic 7
- Start date
Hello... Ron and Scratch et al;
your "logic" might be fitting for an independent thinking and acting individual, but sorely lacks heart and understanding when a child is the subject of your scorn. You seem to have forgotten, or conveniently don't want to remind yourselves that Omar was a boy of fifteen when it all happened. He was an obedient son, following his parents' and their friends' ideology.
And further remember that the Jihadists were fighting the Americans, not us Canadians. But when Canada decided to aid the Americans in their "war against terror" we placed ourselves in the war zone. To now blame Omar for treason, because he apparently and supposedly maybe killed an American soldier, is ridiculous and only exposes the racism harbored.
A 15-year old boy is in no way, shape or form a man! It is criminal of any society to torture, but especially torturing a child.
your "logic" might be fitting for an independent thinking and acting individual, but sorely lacks heart and understanding when a child is the subject of your scorn. You seem to have forgotten, or conveniently don't want to remind yourselves that Omar was a boy of fifteen when it all happened. He was an obedient son, following his parents' and their friends' ideology.
And further remember that the Jihadists were fighting the Americans, not us Canadians. But when Canada decided to aid the Americans in their "war against terror" we placed ourselves in the war zone. To now blame Omar for treason, because he apparently and supposedly maybe killed an American soldier, is ridiculous and only exposes the racism harbored.
A 15-year old boy is in no way, shape or form a man! It is criminal of any society to torture, but especially torturing a child.
A fifteen-year-old boy IS a man. In Canada he is considered a child. He was NOT in Canada. Outside Canada, the rules are different. A thirteen-year-old Jewish boy celebrates his passage into manhood. Furthermore, what the hell is a fifteen-year-old boy doing traipsing about without legal guardian beyond Canadian borders?
OK, take a deep breath, relax, clear your mind. Now read carefully.
We accuse him of treason not because he "apparently supposedly maybe" killed an American, but because, as Ron so succinctly pointed out, because he assisted
"an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities."
That's treason. American soldiers have nothing to do with it.
In the same video he claimed he has no eyes or feet. He clearly has eyes and feet. Credibility problem.
Hi, Wolf;
please, don't befog the case with customs in Israel. I went on the web to find out the legal age. Here is the result...
The age one becomes a legal adult in the US is largely the age at which most children are considered adults in the world. A few countries set this age lower, but in most of the Western world, one is considered an adult at 18.
It was the US who captured Omar!!!!
Anything else is pulled by the hair to have an excuse to reject and condemn him.
Hi, JtF;
I disagree with you. The Americans have everything to do with his capture, imprisonment and torture. They should have handed him over to the Canadian authorities to deal with him. Guantanamo was no place for a child!
Furthermore, Canada should have from the outset asked for his return to Canada, to deal with what you men here call "treason"!
Treason is the word you and others are making up. One can not talk about treason when Canada never declared war against Afghanistan, nor vice versa. Canada got in there for their own sense of American patriotism.
But all that aside, the issue here is Omar was a child in 2002!
If you want to let him go because he's a child go ahead. He's still guilty of treason, that's not being "made up". A child murderer is still a murderer, even if you don't punish him the same as you would an adult.
Why are you so concerned that a traitor not be called a traitor?
Why are you so concerned that a traitor not be called a traitor?
But an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan was? Why was the boy not in school? Why is his mother not being charged with neglect?
Wrong again:
"whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are"
JtF, you are grabbing at straws and dodging the real issue! I do not know why he wasn't in school, or why his mother is not being charged with neglect. It seems to me Canada does not want to deal with Omar and his family. They prefer to stick their head in a pail of sand, and rather let the Americans deal with the controversial situation and take responsibility for the crimes committed against a minor. Canada is not a leader, but rather a British and US follower. We do not even dare stand on our own feet and stay neutral!
Well, you are just a stubborn man who wants to be right. Again, you are not dealing with the issue, but pull out side-issues as a distraction, hoping to befuddle me!!;-)
Oh my!:roll: Must we go over it again?
If you label Omar a child murderer in this war situation, then at least be fair and label the American and NATO soldiers murderes as well. Period!
I did not label Omar a child muderer, I compared the concept of a child murderer to that of a child traitor. You can choose to treat him differently by virtue of his being a child, but he is still a traitor.
After Omar has his trial, which has taken forever due to the lawyers that are representing the Gitmo prisoners,he will be sentenced or set free. If he returns to Canada,should he be allowed to have contact with his mother? BTW,my opinion is that him and his whole terrorist family should be put in a leaky rowboat with a compass and a map with the Middle East circled.
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Note the coloured text. Did the incident happen in the Western world? You are Canadianizing a kid who apparently does NOT want to be Canadian for anything other than reasons of convenience. Please don't befuddle facts with maternal thoughts. Would you get on a bus with this brat?
BTW ... I did not say customs in Israel. I said thirteen-year-old Jewish boy - as in bar mitzvah
Fine... he is a traitor to you and a child to me! If we want to label someone a traitor, then we should condemn the elder Khadrs. WHY hasn't Canada accused them of treason? Because Papa Khadr is dead? Mama Khadr not responsible?
Again, I went on the web and asked, 'is Omar Khadr a traitor?' I didn't get a clear answer, but here is one site I find reasonable and sensible...
"Canada's Responsibility to Omar Khadr
Since the advent of the "War on Terrorism" (which should not be regarded as a war, but more aptly understood as a state of perpetual conflict); the meaning of several operational, technical and legal terms have been arbitrarily redefined. In addition, terms such as "terrorist", "unlawful combatant", "enemy combatant" have been used interchangeably, thereby rendering the historical or legal significance of such terms, meaningless. The consequences to the use of such techniques ought to be considered -- such as the implied lawful circumvention of applicable international laws or treaties.
For instance, in the case of Omar Khadr, Canada is seemingly in conflict with the spirit of the "Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child On the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict", that it ratified in November, 2001.
Article Five (5) of the optional protocol states the following:
"Nothing in the present Protocol shall be construed as precluding provisions in the law of a State Party or in international instruments and international humanitarian law that are more conducive to the realization of the rights of the child."
Additionally, Article Six (6) Section Three (3) states:
3. [...] States Parties shall, when necessary, accord to such persons all appropriate assistance for their physical and psychological recovery and their social reintegration.
and finally, Article Seven (7):
1. States Parties shall cooperate in the implementation of the present Protocol, including in the prevention of any activity contrary thereto and in the rehabilitation and social reintegration of persons who are victims of acts contrary thereto, including through technical cooperation and financial assistance. Such assistance and cooperation will be undertaken in consultation with the States Parties concerned and the relevant international organizations.
While I believe in the necessity for this government to take strong action against those that would seek to harm this great country and its citizens; such actions must remain consistent with the values, principles and spirit of Canada."
(the underlines are mine)
http://ezinearticles.com/?Canadas-Responsibility-to-Omar-Khadr&id=1333924
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Unfortunately, that spirit went out the window!
The spirit I get to witness here in this thread is mainly one full of plain old bloodhound mentality. Where is your humanity? Has Omar not suffered enough in the past six years? Can we not end his pain and let him come home to his family? What is wrong with you men? You frustrate me!
No, it did not happen in the West, but the West took responsibility for him when he was transported to Guantanamo. Omar was born in Canada and is therefore a first-class Canadian citizen! He is entitled to all privileges any other Canadian gets to enjoy.
Stick to the facts, please, Wolf,... he is a legal Canadian citizen. He had no say over where his parents took him. You are forgetting he was a child of four when he left Canada for a few years.
I'm not the one who is befuddled here. Certainly, I would gladly sit beside him on a bus... I would love to! Then I could ask him all kinds of questions.
Sorry for the misquote. Is there a difference?
Yes, there is a difference. The Jewish boy indicated is just an example of how children are deemet to have assumed adult responsibilities at a much younger age than kids in the West.
OK....at this point, it doesn't matter WHY Canada, the USA, Australia, or any other NATO force is in
Afghanistan...just the fact that they ARE there and that they ARE engaged in armed conflict with the Taliban.
I'd have to read back through all the posts on this thread again to confirm this but I don't think anyone has
tried to label Omar Khadr as a terrorist, or either a legal or illegal combatant. I brought in the term treason
along with the label of traitor along with its definition from the Canadian Criminal Code. I didn't see anything
pertaining to a minimum age limit to the crime of High Treason in the CCC either. The shoe still seems to
fit. I have no issue with bringing Omar Khadr back to Canada and simply stated a solution that I thought
would satisfy both sides of this situation. I didn't "make up" the definition of Treason or High Treason, nor
did I "make up" the Canadian Criminal Code as, if I had, it would be a very different document then it is...
I guess I happen to slant off to the Right much farther than the CCC.
If anyone wishes to take a ride on a bus seated next to Omar Khadr, there are busses in Cuba. I've
been there and can tell you that the Chinese buses are much nicer (and newer) than the Russian "Camel"
buses. Just keep in mind that though Omar was 15yrs old at one time, he isn't now, and just where does
anyone who is not of the same faith as Omar fit into his personal (though indoctrinated) philosophy???
The term Omar would use is infidel. Don't get me wrong in thinking that I'm knocking Moslems, 'cuz I'm
not. I do have an issue with Fundamental Extremists of any faith that have zero tolerance for anyone who
happens to be outside their faith. As far as the question about Omar's mother being complicient in his
actions, and yet the Canadian Government doesn't seem to have an issue with this??? I think she's just
as guilty as Omar in the criminal acts he has committed. Omar's Mothers (I use the term loosely) had an
issue with the American forces because THEY SAVED OMAR'S LIFE instead of letting him die in the dirt of
Afghanistan and thus becoming martyred to the twisted belief system that she follows.
Omar Khadr was in Afghanistan. He was trained in an Al Qaeda camp. He was working with the Taliban.
Canada was in Afghanistan fighting against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. It's just dumb luck on Omar's part that
he was involved in a fire fight against American Forces, and not Canadian Forces. That fact that it was
against American Forces and not Canadian Forces is not the relevant fact though...it's the fact that he was
working with an enemy at war with Canadian Forces. Omar was shot in the fire fight, and the American
Forces did save his life, even though he'd just been involved in taking and American Soldiers life. Would the
Taliban (or Al Qaeda) have done the same for a wounded American (or Canadian) Soldier? Does anyone
here honestly think the fire fight would have gone any differently is the Soldiers happened to have a Canadian
Flag sewn onto their sleeves? If Omar was a boy and not a man, then he would have been in Canada playing
Nintendo and not in Afghanistan assisting "an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom
Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the
country whose forces they are."
Afghanistan...just the fact that they ARE there and that they ARE engaged in armed conflict with the Taliban.
I'd have to read back through all the posts on this thread again to confirm this but I don't think anyone has
tried to label Omar Khadr as a terrorist, or either a legal or illegal combatant. I brought in the term treason
along with the label of traitor along with its definition from the Canadian Criminal Code. I didn't see anything
pertaining to a minimum age limit to the crime of High Treason in the CCC either. The shoe still seems to
fit. I have no issue with bringing Omar Khadr back to Canada and simply stated a solution that I thought
would satisfy both sides of this situation. I didn't "make up" the definition of Treason or High Treason, nor
did I "make up" the Canadian Criminal Code as, if I had, it would be a very different document then it is...
I guess I happen to slant off to the Right much farther than the CCC.
If anyone wishes to take a ride on a bus seated next to Omar Khadr, there are busses in Cuba. I've
been there and can tell you that the Chinese buses are much nicer (and newer) than the Russian "Camel"
buses. Just keep in mind that though Omar was 15yrs old at one time, he isn't now, and just where does
anyone who is not of the same faith as Omar fit into his personal (though indoctrinated) philosophy???
The term Omar would use is infidel. Don't get me wrong in thinking that I'm knocking Moslems, 'cuz I'm
not. I do have an issue with Fundamental Extremists of any faith that have zero tolerance for anyone who
happens to be outside their faith. As far as the question about Omar's mother being complicient in his
actions, and yet the Canadian Government doesn't seem to have an issue with this??? I think she's just
as guilty as Omar in the criminal acts he has committed. Omar's Mothers (I use the term loosely) had an
issue with the American forces because THEY SAVED OMAR'S LIFE instead of letting him die in the dirt of
Afghanistan and thus becoming martyred to the twisted belief system that she follows.
Omar Khadr was in Afghanistan. He was trained in an Al Qaeda camp. He was working with the Taliban.
Canada was in Afghanistan fighting against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. It's just dumb luck on Omar's part that
he was involved in a fire fight against American Forces, and not Canadian Forces. That fact that it was
against American Forces and not Canadian Forces is not the relevant fact though...it's the fact that he was
working with an enemy at war with Canadian Forces. Omar was shot in the fire fight, and the American
Forces did save his life, even though he'd just been involved in taking and American Soldiers life. Would the
Taliban (or Al Qaeda) have done the same for a wounded American (or Canadian) Soldier? Does anyone
here honestly think the fire fight would have gone any differently is the Soldiers happened to have a Canadian
Flag sewn onto their sleeves? If Omar was a boy and not a man, then he would have been in Canada playing
Nintendo and not in Afghanistan assisting "an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom
Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the
country whose forces they are."
I disagree with moral relativism. We cannot treat people poorly because they would treat us poorly if the roles were reversed.
But that's not the case here anyway. Our allies in this war have violated just about every treaty and convention regarding the conduct of war and treatment of POWs.
We have been fed a lot of BS regarding Khadr's case. The alleged facts of the case here:
International law does not recognize the US defined "unlawful combatant". By international and Canadian law, people are either soldiers or civilians. If they are soldiers then they become POWs when captured. If they are civilians they are criminals when convicted of a crime after a fair trial. Either way, people have fundamental human rights which law abiding civilized countries are obliged to respect.
The Canadian government also has a duty to ensure Canadian citizens held by foreign governments are treated fairly and humanely. In this case, it appears the US government tortured confessions from a Canadian child while the Canadian government did nothing or assisted.
Bad enough that our government did nothing while a foreign government tortures confessions from a 15 year old Canadian citizen. Now you want our government to lynch Khadr.
I have a few questions:
1) How does the Canadian government decide which Canadians it should attempt to protect from abuse by foreign governments and which Canadian citizens it allows to be sleep deprived, sexually humiliated, shackled in painful positions and then repeatedly subjected to near drowning?
2) Should Canada allow any foreign government to torture any Canadian citizen or do we just allow the American government to torture Canadian children?
3) How should the Canadian legal system decide which accused criminals have a right to due process and which ones should be lynched?
But that's not the case here anyway. Our allies in this war have violated just about every treaty and convention regarding the conduct of war and treatment of POWs.
We have been fed a lot of BS regarding Khadr's case. The alleged facts of the case here:
International law does not recognize the US defined "unlawful combatant". By international and Canadian law, people are either soldiers or civilians. If they are soldiers then they become POWs when captured. If they are civilians they are criminals when convicted of a crime after a fair trial. Either way, people have fundamental human rights which law abiding civilized countries are obliged to respect.
The Canadian government also has a duty to ensure Canadian citizens held by foreign governments are treated fairly and humanely. In this case, it appears the US government tortured confessions from a Canadian child while the Canadian government did nothing or assisted.
Bad enough that our government did nothing while a foreign government tortures confessions from a 15 year old Canadian citizen. Now you want our government to lynch Khadr.
I have a few questions:
1) How does the Canadian government decide which Canadians it should attempt to protect from abuse by foreign governments and which Canadian citizens it allows to be sleep deprived, sexually humiliated, shackled in painful positions and then repeatedly subjected to near drowning?
2) Should Canada allow any foreign government to torture any Canadian citizen or do we just allow the American government to torture Canadian children?
3) How should the Canadian legal system decide which accused criminals have a right to due process and which ones should be lynched?
Maybe our troops should just cut their f'en heads off instead. I have a question or two,also. 1: If an afghani lad of fifteen visiting Canada murdered your child,spouse,loved one etc.,would you want him tried in Canada or would you prefer that he was tried in Afghanistan? 2: What would be an appropiate punishment for Omar in Canada,if found guilty? Now remember,Omar has admitted to throwing the grenade.Omar and his family are dedicated to jihad.Our laws would almost certainly let him go for time served. 3: Would you want him to live in your neighbourhood or next door or date your daughter?.........I posted before a picture of sweet little Omar danging his trophies of war,a man's hand and foot. I haven't yet posted a link to a Taliban beheading. 4:Earth as one,would you like to see either? Frankly the beheading,while Omar's peer group chants 'allah ackbar' is the worst thing I have ever seen,and I have been around the block of violence more than once.