No Respect for Khadr

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Just the facts;
you are just as guilty as I am projecting Omar's future as to what he will do. That is nonsense! We do not know exactly what state of mind he is in. My choice is to believe in his innocence! The last six years of his life will have made a tremendous impact on his mind. To assume he will be going back to Afghanistan and fight against the American alliance is only trying to satisfy your contempt for him and his fellow Muslims.

Of course. It's speculation. That's how betting works. So we're on?

Edit: Except the contempt for Muslims part. That's just your racist anger being projected. I have no such contempt. In fact, I've never met a Muslim I didn't like.

What have the Taliban done to you, JtF?

They declared war on us.

But, we are callous enough (?) is that the right word?, to pretend we are there for humanitarian reasons, to free the poor, helpless and backward Afghan population from the brutal rule of the Taliban.

Fair enough. We're there to confront an enemy who has declared itself commited to our destruction. If we can do some humanitarian good along the way, fine.

Why aren't we in Zimbabwe, just one example, as well?

Let's go. I'm all for it.

Can you give me the answer WHY we are fighting and killing people in Afghanistan? I want your honest answer, please.

See above.

And get it finally into your stubborn head: Omar was a child! He was a victim of his parents ideology! Please, separate him from them! He is not a traitor nor a criminal.... he was a child under the influence of grown-ups.

That's lame. We're all the product of our parents. Even Bush. Why did Omar's brother have the good sense to leave behind the Al Qaeda life? Was he not equally a victim of his parent's ideology?

Besides, I've said over and over and over that I have no problem with him being given special consideration on the basis of his age.

So who's head is stubborn?

Should he choose to leave Canada it would likely be for the safety of his life. The vicious racist dogs Ron was mentioning will come after him. If CC is a barometer for the feelings in this country about Omar and the Taliban in general, then he will not be safe in Canada anymore.

I'm sure you have many examples of Muslims being killed in Canada just because they're Muslims or associated with Al Qaeda. This must be what you base this fear for his safety on. Please enlighten me to the precedents.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
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Toronto
Why don't you let Omar move in with you then Loon, since you are the only Canadian citizen who isn't a vicious- racist dog.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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Loon.... Omar was a child - IN CANADA! He wasn't lobbing rocks through car windows like good Canadian kids. He was assisting in the defense - not of HIS nation or any other, but in the cause of an extremist religious associatian - as an ADULT as defined by the culture, rules and laws of a part of the world that is NOT Canada. His citizenship was one of convenience - for his terrorist parents. He wan't a child. He was a loophole.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
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Loon.... Omar was a child - IN CANADA! He wasn't lobbing rocks through car windows like good Canadian kids. He was assisting in the defense - not of HIS nation or any other, but in the cause of an extremist religious associatian - as an ADULT as defined by the culture, rules and laws of a part of the world that is NOT Canada. His citizenship was one of convenience - for his terrorist parents. He wan't a child. He was a loophole.


......Astute,lw.......
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
31,707
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Regina, Saskatchewan
dancing-loon....FYI...I'm not a racist...but you're pretty LIBERAL with that term. I'm
fairly sure that Michael Vic's dogs weren't racist either. They where just trained killers
and I doubt that they cared what color or breed of dog they where set upon. Is anyone
that has a different opinion than yourself a racist? Please define racist for me as you
perceive it.

The United States of America isn't a Canadian Citizen. Omar Khadr is a Canadian
Citizen and I too, believe that we should repatriate him, so that he can stand trial for
his crimes against our nation. If the United States of America would like to give this
man 10 million dollars in compensation for his six years in Cuba, after his involvement
in killing one of their soldiers and blinding another...that's their prerogative. Not ours.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Alright, all of you hard-headed men, read Omar's story!

....He has spent six years in the Guantanamo Bay detention camps charged with war crimes and providing support to terrorism after allegedly throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier.

....has been frequently referred to as a child soldier. The only Western citizen remaining in Guantanamo, Khadr is unique in that Canada has refused to seek extradition or repatriation despite the urgings of Amnesty International, UNICEF, the Canadian Bar Association and other prominent organisations.
Why do you men pretend to be sooo much smarter than these reputable organisations and General Dallaire? Why stubbornly stick to your traitor, he is a terrorist, a vicious dog, not a child obsessions?

In February 2008, the Pentagon accidentally released documents that revealed that although Khadr was present during the firefight, there was no other evidence that he had thrown the grenade. In fact, military officials had originally reported that another of the surviving militants had thrown the grenade just before being killed.

Being present doesn't prove he killed a soldier. Because the other guy was dead they couldn't torture him anymore, but Omar was still alive and was therefore blamed.

Omar spent his childhood moving back and forth between Canada and Pakistan. His mother also wished to raise her family outside of Canada due to her animus for western social influences. Khadr was enrolled in a madrassah in Peshawar.

Did little Omar have a say in those decisions? NO, he certainly didn't!

In 1992, Khadr's father was severely injured while in Lowgar, Afghanistan; the Khadr family moved back to Toronto so he could recuperate. After the move, Omar became "hypersensitive to tension in the family" and would often quote Captain Haddock from The Adventures of Tintin. Enrolled at ISNA Elementary School for Grade 1, Omar's teachers described him as "very smart, very eager and very polite". He claimed his vision of Jannah involved a swimming pool filled with Jell-O.:smile:
He was a sensitive boy!
......
In 1995, Ahmed Khadr was arrested following Ayman al-Zawahiri's bombing of the Egyptian embassy in Pakistan, and accused of financially aiding the conspirators. Ahmed was hospitalised after engaging in a hunger strike, and 9-year old Omar spent every night sleeping on the floor beside his father's bed until his release a year later for lack of evidence.
What a sweetheart! His Dad was his hero!
.....
His father agreed, and a month later allowed him to accompany a group of Arabs associated with Abu Laith al-Libi, who needed a Pashto translator during their stay in Khost. Khadr promised to check in regularly with his mother. A later collection of biographies written by al Qaeda praises the elder Khadr for "tossing his little child in the furnace of the battle", and likens his son to a lion cub.
Clearly, it was the reckless grown-ups who used him for their schemes! He wanted to be helpful, I'm sure, but he had not the mind and understanding of the consequences.

There is lots more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My time on the computer has been choppy and with long pauses. I will come back later tonight when I can think uninterrupted!!
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
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Toronto
Ohh, Poor Terrorist boy Khadr. It's amazing how cute kids look before they become traitors.

Hey Loon, what did the German army do to traitors during WW2?
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
31,707
11,503
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
"dancing-loon," sorry if it seemed I was pretty snappy earlier, but I just don't understand
where you're coming from. I'm also trying to quit smoking (I'm four days now without a
cigarette or a cigar) and might have been a bit bitchy earlier. My family is like a meeting
of the United Nations, and my Brother-in-Law is contemplating a future (later on) in
Federal politics as a Liberal. He's a Lawyer, and we're able to get down and dirty when
we debate an issue. I may have fell into that pattern.

Omar's story is sad. I agree that his parents are a couple of Sh*ts. Omar was
indoctrinated into a Fundamental Extremist view early and that's sad too. He didn't
have a chance. That's sad too. Omar was involved in that fire fight in Afghanistan when
he was only 15 years old. That's sad too. Omar's been in American custody in Cuba
for the last six years, furthering his education with the other inmates/prisoners who
are also incarcerated there. That's sad too. Omar was a boy of 15, six years ago, and
now he's a man of 22 years of age. Omar is no longer a boy.

I wasn't calling Omar a dog earlier. I was making an analogy comparing the similarities
between Omar and Michael Vic's Pitbulls in that they where all indoctrinated from an early
age before they had a choice themselves as to which direction in life they'd like to follow,
becoming whatever vicious tool his parents (or owner in Vic's case) chose for them to be.
That's very sad too. Michael Vic's dogs (I believe) where all put down as they where
simply just too dangerous to release (adopt out) into peoples homes. That's sad too.

I have two dogs. One I raised from 5wks of age in a very loving but controlled environment
with tons of socialization with other dogs and cats and kids and babies, etc...and he's the
biggest Teddy Bear you've ever met. He's my little buddy. He's grown into a lean 70kg dog.
He's the perfect dog to expose to someone who's been afraid of dogs all their live, as within
minutes they're over their fear. He's known nothing but love and respect. My other dog was
rescued from a junk yard where he was abused and beaten and starved and neglected. He
wants to be a good dog and really just seems so grateful to have a second chance at life,
but he can be pretty unpredictable at times. My family has raised and trained Border Collies
for the last 25 years. I've invested much time into K9 training (it's a daily thing and I walk our
dogs 40-60km most weeks on top of that). I fell back upon a dog analogy as they're never
far from my mind. I wasn't calling Omar Khadr a dog, and if that's how it was perceived, I must
apologize. My former junk yard dog (Otis) I thought was salvageable and he's come a long way
but still has a long way to go. If he didn't/couldn't adapt to become what he's becoming from
what he was....I would have shot him already. Quickly and humanely. That would have been
very sad too. I, and most of the population out here, are only a single generation off the farm
and tend to have a very pragmatic outlook to most issues.

"dancing-loon," you lean off to the Left and I know I lean waaaay of to the Right on many things,
and that's cool. This type of forum allows us to interact with each other in a controlled situation
so that we can both see the other side of the coin (hopefully that twisted analogy makes sense).
Don't think I don't respect your views ('cuz I do), but I'm having some trouble trying to wrap my
head around them...but I'm trying. I don't think Omar Khadr is salvageable vs. the danger he poses.
You have a different opinion but I'm not sure if it's that you think Omar is salvageable or that he is
somehow just owed our respect due to his circumstances, or is it some third option that just has
not occurred to me? I'm try'n to wrap my head around what your outlook could be, but I'm just not
getting it. I'm try'n, but maybe I need a bit of guidance. At this point, I just don't get it.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
DL ... I am not deliberately being hard-hearted. You have to understand Omar and his family are of a different culture with an entirely different set of values. I do know in Asian cultures - notably SE Asia - the family stays together - even in times of war. Many GIs came home from Viet Nam with the title "baby killer". In too many cases, they had to be because the enemy facing you down could be a two-year-old with an armed grenade. A fifteen-year-old is already two years into maturity in many parts of the world - where here, he may be fretting over his first date, or the goal he failed to stop in yesterday's soccer match. You can't apply at home values on other cultures. That is what is causing much of the misunderstanding between US military and local populations.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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DL ... I am not deliberately being hard-hearted. You have to understand Omar and his family are of a different culture with an entirely different set of values. I do know in Asian cultures - notably SE Asia - the family stays together - even in times of war. Many GIs came home from Viet Nam with the title "baby killer". In too many cases, they had to be because the enemy facing you down could be a two-year-old with an armed grenade. A fifteen-year-old is already two years into maturity in many parts of the world - where here, he may be fretting over his first date, or the goal he failed to stop in yesterday's soccer match. You can't apply at home values on other cultures. That is what is causing much of the misunderstanding between US military and local populations.
Yes, Wolf, I know, and I truly appreciate your somewhat more conciliatory tone. Of course, the Khadr family is from a different culture, but Canada has allowed them to come here. Canada is a multi-cultural country, and for the most part we all get along fine. I don't understand why the otherwise tolerant average Canadian gets so upset and downright vicious towards Omar. Where does that hate come from?

Regards two-year olds in Vietnam.... I can only imagine how desperate the enemy must have become. Can you see how ugly and inhumane war is? So why do you want to perpetuate it by reacting so aggressive and hateful towards a young Canadian man? Has he harmed Canada in any way?? Not that I know.

If you want to insist that Omar, according to his culture, was already a man at age 15 and therefore Canada should treat him as a full-grown man, label him a terrorist and a traitor, who committed war crimes... that's your business. I can't for the life of me follow that kind of logic.
What would we be losing, if we treated him with understanding and compassion? Be friendly and kind to him? Tell me, Wolf, what's the harm?
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
Understanding and compassion can only go so far because anyone with whom he'd be in contact cannot truly understand. This young man is going to have to be reprogrammed in ways the hardest of combat veterans don't even see because from infancy, this has been his life. What do you suppose would happen if this person, trained in the art of subversive activity, were to organize street gangs into a revolutionary army?
 
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dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Lone Wolf, you ARE a heartless wolf!! You imagine the worst and make it reality!
Sorry, we have to agree to disagree on this matter.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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"dancing-loon," sorry if it seemed I was pretty snappy earlier, but I just don't understand where you're coming from. I'm also trying to quit smoking (I'm four days now without a cigarette or a cigar) and might have been a bit bitchy earlier. My family is like a meeting
of the United Nations, and my Brother-in-Law is contemplating a future (later on) in Federal politics as a Liberal. He's a Lawyer, and we're able to get down and dirty when we debate an issue. I may have fell into that pattern.
Nothing but excuses!! But I'll make an exception and forgive you this time!:smile:
Omar's story is sad. I agree that his parents are a couple of Sh*ts. Omar was
indoctrinated into a Fundamental Extremist view early and that's sad too. He didn't
have a chance. That's sad too. Omar was involved in that fire fight in Afghanistan when
he was only 15 years old. That's sad too. Omar's been in American custody in Cuba
for the last six years, furthering his education with the other inmates/prisoners who
are also incarcerated there. That's sad too. Omar was a boy of 15, six years ago, and
now he's a man of 22 years of age. Omar is no longer a boy.
No, he is no longer a boy, probably an old man. Those six years have been like a lifetime of horror.
What education are you talking about? All he had was the Quran and a little Mickey Mouse book. He spent 23 hours/day in a windowless solitary cell. "
Muslim chaplain James Yee recalled Khadr had been given an English Mickey Mouse book by an interrogator, and that he slept with it clutched to his chest."
I wasn't calling Omar a dog earlier. I was making an analogy comparing the similarities between Omar and Michael Vic's Pitbulls in that they where all indoctrinated from an early age before they had a choice themselves as to which direction in life they'd like to follow, becoming whatever vicious tool his parents (or owner in Vic's case) chose for them to be.
That's very sad too. Michael Vic's dogs (I believe) where all put down as they where
simply just too dangerous to release (adopt out) into peoples homes. That's sad too.
I understood your analogy... all I did was turn the analogy around and made you and company the pit bulls!!!:p
I have two dogs. One I raised from 5wks of age in a very loving but controlled environment with tons of socialization with other dogs and cats and kids and babies, etc...and he's the biggest Teddy Bear you've ever met. He's my little buddy. He's grown into a lean 70kg dog.
He's the perfect dog to expose to someone who's been afraid of dogs all their live, as within
minutes they're over their fear. He's known nothing but love and respect. My other dog was
rescued from a junk yard where he was abused and beaten and starved and neglected. (like Omar!) He wants to be a good dog and really just seems so grateful to have a second chance at life, but he can be pretty unpredictable at times. My family has raised and trained Border Collies
for the last 25 years. I've invested much time into K9 training (it's a daily thing and I walk our
dogs 40-60km most weeks on top of that). I fell back upon a dog analogy as they're never
far from my mind. I wasn't calling Omar Khadr a dog, and if that's how it was perceived, I must
apologize. My former junk yard dog (Otis) I thought was salvageable and he's come a long way
but still has a long way to go. If he didn't/couldn't adapt to become what he's becoming from
what he was....I would have shot him already. Quickly and humanely. That would have been
very sad too. I, and most of the population out here, are only a single generation off the farm
and tend to have a very pragmatic outlook to most issues.
Nice dog stories. I, too, grew up on a big farm and know all about the rough way of animal handling. When I married, I gladly joined my husband in his vegetarian way. I became a life member of the Animal Defense League. About ten years ago I had to make the heart-wrenching decision to put our last dog to sleep.

The love and respect you have for your dog you should show for Omar as well. He is an abused human being and in great need of acceptance and kindness, instead of hate, rudeness, and rejection.
"dancing-loon," you lean off to the Left and I know I lean waaaay of to the Right on many things, and that's cool. This type of forum allows us to interact with each other in a controlled situation so that we can both see the other side of the coin (hopefully that twisted analogy makes sense).
Yes, I enjoy a good debate where everybody expresses his opinion in a decent manner and without throwing personal insults at me.
Don't think I don't respect your views ('cuz I do), but I'm having some trouble trying to wrap my head around them...but I'm trying.
Thanks for trying, Ron. I should try a little harder too, so I understand your points. I have to admit, though, it is a little hard for me. Females have by nature softer and more nurturing feelings. Also, I grew up during WWII, and have seen and heard enough awful war stories. I am against war! There are always other ways and means to solve a dispute or get what you want.
I don't think Omar Khadr is salvageable vs. the danger he poses.
You are a pessimist, Ron!
You have a different opinion but I'm not sure if it's that you think Omar is salvageable or that he is somehow just owed our respect due to his circumstances, or is it some third option that just has not occurred to me? I'm try'n to wrap my head around what your outlook could be, but I'm just not getting it. I'm try'n, but maybe I need a bit of guidance. At this point, I just don't get it.
It's trust and female intuition! I know he is a good guy.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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"earth_as_one"....What would you like to see done with respect to Omar Khadr? I offered a
solution which you disagree with. Fine. I wanted to get the conversation rolling and that
happened. Are you willing to offer up a different a solution?

Khadr should have been treated humanely and the focus of his incareration should have been rehabilitation and re-education. Khadr, as a 15 year old child soldier, should have been considered a victim as well as a perpetrator.


THE PARIS PRINCIPLES
PRINCIPLES AND GUIDELINES ON CHILDREN
ASSOCIATED WITH ARMED FORCES OR ARMED
GROUPS

February 2007

.....

Definitions:

2.1 “A child associated with an armed force or armed group” refers to any person below 18 years of age who is or who has been recruited or used by an armed force or armed group in any capacity, including but not limited to children, boys and girls, used as fighters, cooks, porters, messengers, spies or for sexual purposes. It does not only refer to a child who is taking or has taken a direct part in hostilities.

....

Best interests of the child5

3.4.0 The release of children from armed forces or armed groups, their reintegration and prevention of recruitment and re-recruitment require priority attention. Actions in this regard must not be dependent or contingent on or attached in any way to the progress of peace processes. All measures to assure the release of children, their protection and the prevention of the recruitment of children shall be determined by the best interests of such children.

3.4.1 Prevention of recruitment, release, protection and reintegration are interdependent and indivisible. Efforts to develop lasting solutions to children’s recruitment or use by armed forces or armed groups, and to prevent its future occurrence, should be inclusive of all children affected by armed conflict and address other egregious violations of children’s rights under applicable international law or the national law of the countries affected.

Children and justice

Treatment of those accused of violations of children’s rights

3.5 Those suspected of committing crimes against children under international law should receive particular attention in post-conflict or transitional justice mechanisms. No amnesty for crimes under international law, including those committed against children, should be granted in any peace or cease-fire agreement.

Treatment of children accused of crimes under international law

3.6 Children who are accused of crimes under international law allegedly committed while they were associated with armed forces or armed groups should be considered primarily as victims of offences against international law; not only as perpetrators. They must be treated in accordance with international law in a framework of restorative justice and social rehabilitation, consistent with international law which offers children special protection through numerous agreements and principles.

3.7 Wherever possible, alternatives to judicial proceedings must be sought, in line with the Convention on the Rights of the Child and other international standards for juvenile justice.6

3.8 Where truth-seeking and reconciliation mechanisms are established, children’s involvement should be promoted and supported and their rights protected throughout the process. Their participation must be voluntary and by informed consent by both the child and her or his parent or guardian where appropriate and possible. Special procedures should be permitted to minimize greater susceptibility to distress.

The right to life, survival and development7

3.9 Capital punishment or imprisonment for life without possibility of release shall never be used against any person who is proved to have committed an offence against international or domestic criminal law while under 18 years of age.8

3.10 Programmes and policies intended to benefit children associated with armed forces or armed groups should also be informed by a child development perspective. This includes considering and addressing the way children’s relationships with significant persons in their lives have been affected by their experiences as well as the way children’s experiences impact on their own evolving capacities. A consideration of child development will always include recognising the individual capacities and resources of children in surviving and overcoming their difficulties.

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/IMG/pdf/Paris_Conference_Principles_English_31_January.pdf

It shouldn't make a difference which country tortures Canadian children or what crimes that child is alleged to have committed. Our government has a duty to insist that foreign governments respect the fundamental human rights of Canadian children or face punitive measures.

As soon as the Canadian government realized that a foreign government had detained a Canadian child, they should have made an effort to ensure he would be treated humanely and fairly. That didn't happen. As a result he was tortured.

As soon as the Canadian government realized that a foreign government was torturing a 15 year old Canadian child, they should have been demanded that government turn Khadr over to Canadian authorities. Failure to make this demand makes the Canadian government complicit in his abusive treatment.

As a Canadian citizen, I am embarassed when I read accounts of this Canadian child's treatment by Canadian and American authorities:

Human Rights Watch
June 1, 2007

...The US government incarcerated him with adults, reportedly subjected him to abusive interrogations, failed to provide him any educational opportunities, and denied him any direct contact with his family...

...“We have here a kid who was dragged to meet al-Qaeda leaders from the age of 10, sent to military training camps at age 15, and then out to the battlefield to be shot at,” said Daskal. “He hardly qualifies as the ‘worst of the worst.’”

In detaining Khadr, the United States has flouted juvenile justice standards that provide for children to be treated in accordance with their unique vulnerability, lower degree of culpability, and capacity for rehabilitation. Although international standards allow for detention of juveniles only as a last resort, and require a prompt determination of all cases involving children, Khadr was held in US custody for more than two years before even being provided access to an attorney, more than three years before being charged before the first military commissions, and another two years before being prosecuted in this case.

Khadr has also reportedly been beaten, denied adequate medical treatment, held in solitary confinement for long periods of time, and left bound in uncomfortable “stress positions” until he soiled himself.

The treatment of Khadr also conflicts with the international obligations of the US to promote the demobilization and rehabilitation of child soldiers. Under a treaty banning children under the age of 18 from participating in armed conflict, ratified by the United States in 2002, the United States is obliged to assist in the demobilization and rehabilitation of former child soldiers within its jurisdiction. In 2004, the Pentagon released from Guantanamo three children, believed to be between the ages of 13 and 15 at the time of their capture, to rehabilitation programs operated by UNICEF in Afghanistan.

However, it refused to consider Khadr for a similar rehabilitation program, or to provide him with special protection at Guantanamo.

On Wednesday, Khadr fired his US military and civilian legal counsel. He is still represented by two Canadian lawyers, but US military commission rules prohibit foreign lawyers from acting as lead counsel at commission hearings...

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/01/usdom16050.htm

Khadr's alleged crimes are far less serious than crimes committed by child soldiers in Rwanda and Sierra Leone. Canada has been supportive of programs in those countries to rehabilitate those child soldiers.

...unlike other children forced into war, post-conflict Khadr has been thrown in jail, left to languish and even abused, as a Canadian government report revealed this month. Despite being only 15 at the time of his arrest by U.S. forces in eastern Afghanistan, Khadr is charged with war crimes and expected to stand trial in October.

Why is he treated so differently from other child soldiers? The answer is clearly political.

Imagine if he had been caught fighting anywhere else, or by anyone else. The brainwashing he suffered at the hands of the man he trusted most would elicit unwavering sympathy.

He would be cared for, as the UN, ILO and other organizations require, and certainly wouldn't be jailed with a bunch of adults.


http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=7d775d17-8227-47e8-bbfc-40f906c9cf37

Six years ago, I never would have thought that Canada would be complicit in the torture a Canadian child by a foreign government or that so many Canadians would voice support for torturing a Canadian child.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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...They (the Taliban) declared war on us...
The US declared war on the Taliban, not the other way around.

President Bush says Taliban paying a price
October 7, 2001

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Minutes after the United States-led strikes began in Afghanistan, President Bush spoke from the White House about the action.

The following is a transcript of his address.

"On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes against Al Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

"These carefully targeted actions are designed to disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations and to attack the military capability of the Taliban regime.

"We are joined in this operation by our staunch friend, Great Britain. Other close friends, including Canada, Australia, Germany and France, have pledged forces as the operation unfolds.

"More than 40 countries in the Middle East, Africa, Europe and across Asia have granted air transit or landing rights. Many more have shared intelligence. We are supported by the collective will of the world.

"More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and specific demands: Close terrorist training camps. Hand over leaders of the Al Qaeda network. And return all foreign nationals, including American citizens, unjustly detained in their country.

"None of these demands was met. And now, the Taliban will pay a price.

"By destroying camps and disrupting communications, we will make it more difficult for the terror network to train new recruits and coordinate their evil plans.

"Initially the terrorists may burrow deeper into caves and other entrenched hiding places. Our military action is also designed to clear the way for sustained, comprehensive and relentless operations to drive them out and bring them to justice....

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/10/07/ret.bush.transcript/

The US never accused the Taliban of being involved in the 9/11 attacks. They attacked the Taliban because they never met US demands.

Anyone who understood Afghan culture and code of honor knew there was no way the Taliban could meet US demands regarding their "guests".

The Taliban: an organizational analysis

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.--Sun Tzu (1)

One of the most widely recognized images of the present day is that of airplanes hitting the World Trade Center on 11 September 2001. The terrorist organization Al-Qaeda and its host, the Taliban in Afghanistan, became household names all over the world on that fateful day. The media started churning out stories about the brutalities of the Taliban, and the world discovered a new monster.

The Taliban did not grow out of the dark overnight, nor was it unknown in the Middle East, the region of the world most severely affected after 9/11. Following its emergence in 1994 from madrassas, the Taliban achieved surprising victories over its enemies and assumed rule over much of Afghanistan. (2) Simultaneously hailed as saviors and feared as oppressors, the Taliban were an almost mythical phenomenon that seemed to embody the very essence of Afghan cultural beliefs, especially revenge for transgression, hospitality for enemies, and readiness to die for honor. The Taliban knew the Afghan people and their ways and embedded themselves in the complex Afghan web of tribalism, religion, and ethnicity.

Despite their quick overthrow in 2002 by a small coalition of U.S. forces and anti-Taliban groups, the Taliban has not gone away. In fact, today, in the face of thousands of NATO and U.S. troops, a growing Afghan National Army (ANA), and a popularly elected government, the movement's influence in Afghanistan is increasing. It continues to wage an insurgency that has prevented the new government from establishing legitimacy, and it has created massive unrest in Pakistan. Clearly, it behooves us to know something more about this archaic but formidable enemy....

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PBZ/is_3_88/ai_n26671988/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

...Melmastia (hospitality). Hospitality and protection must be offered to all visitors without expectation of remuneration or favor. Any Pashtun who can gain access to the house of another Pashtun can claim asylum there, regardless of the previous relationship between the two parties.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PBZ/is_3_88/ai_n26671988/pg_4

Even if the Taliban were hostile toward the people allegedly responsible for 9/11, they still couldn't meet US demands.

Even though the Taliban were obligated to protect the people accused of planning 9/11, I don't believe they had any part in those events. In 2001, the Taliban were busy fighting a civil war in Afghanistan. They had no interest in starting a war with the US.

I fully support bringing those responsible for 9/11 to justice. Its possible that OBL and the rest of his cadre could have been brought to justice without starting a war with the Taliban.

If the world imposed an embargo/quarantine/seige against the Taliban, the Taliban's "guests" would have been honor bound to leave the sanctuary of their Taliban "hosts". Then the west could have engaged these people militarily without attacking the Taliban. All it would have taken is patience. But US leaders were in a hurry to attack Afghanistan so they could move on to Iraq.



Back on subject: Khadr technically became a traitor when the US attacked the Taliban. He is accused of committing a war crime because he allegedly fought against a hostile foreign invasion force which attacked the compound where he was living. His accusers falsified evidence and extracted confessions by torture. No fair judicial process would ever convict Khadr of his "alleged" war crime.
 
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wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
This is a bit off-topic. There are two Canadians 'children' in Saudi Arabia that will in all likelihood be executed for their part in the murder of a saudi citizen. Where is the outrage in this forum? Is the sympathy for Omar derived by hatred of our neighbour,the U.S,or is because most here are actually leaning towards treasonous behaviour themselves. If these 'Canadian children are convicted in saudi,the penalty is DEATH. Is it alright for them to kill canadians because they are 'the religion of peace' and not those evil Americans?
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
Also ,the group that little Omar and his family are a part of,executed 2 canadians today .These 2 women were there to help the Afghans,but Omar's people thought it would be better to put bullets in their head. Yes ,the Taliban,which Omar's family are a part of ,killed 2 innocent Canadian women ,who gave up a comfortable life to help Afghani woman have a better life. You mofo's that support terrorists should be sent over there.