: New pope elected is Pope Francis, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina.

Walter

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The new Pope is on the ropes of a shrinking church population because of the priests indiscretions.
RC church is booming.

From Wikipedia:
Total church membership (both lay and clerical) in 2007 was 1.147 billion people,[56] having increased from 437 million in 1950[57] and 654 million in 1970.[58] On 31 December 2011, membership was 1.196 billion, an increase of 11.54% over the same date in 2000, which was only slightly greater than the rate of increase of the world population (10.77%). The increase was 33.02% in Africa, but only 1.17% in Europe. It was 15.91% in Asia, 11.39% in Oceania and 10.93% in the Americas. As a result, Catholics were 17.77% of the total population in Africa, 63.10% in the Americas, 3.05% in Asia, 39.97% in Europe, 26.21% in Oceania and 17.09% of the world population.
Of the world's Catholics, the proportion living in Africa grew from 12.44% in 2000 to 14.84% in 2008, while those living in Europe declined from 26.81% to 24.31%.[1] Membership in the Catholic Church is attained through baptism or reception into the Church (for individuals previously baptised in non-Catholic Christian churches).[59] For some years until 2009, if someone formally left the Church, that fact was noted in the register of the person's baptism.
In 2007, Vatican records listed 408,024 Catholic priests in the world, 762 more than at the beginning of the year. The main growth areas have been Asia and Africa, with 21.1% and 27.6% growth respectively. In North and South America, numbers have remained approximately the same, while there was a 6.8% decline in Europe and a 5.5% decrease in Oceania from 2000 to 2007.[56]
Since the early 2000s the number of practicing Catholics have been reported to be declining in millions throughout the world.[3][2][60]
 

Spade

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Canada’s Marc Ouellet almost became pope



That doesn't surprise me. He is so highly respected by almost all of the prelates of the Church.. and is so prominently and centrally positioned at the confluence of all of the major eccliesiastical, theological, liturgical and evangelical streams of thought of the modern Church.. that when the white smoke appeared so early i thought he was the likely choice.

He made no secret of his reluctance to accept the post.. which might have been the only thing that held back his election.

As for 'a powerful new post'. It would be hard to get much more powerful than the Congregation of Bishops which he now heads. Although the Secretary of State and Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith technically are of higher precedence. He might be interested in the latter.. but not the former.


Highly speculative, since the cardinals and Vatican staff were sworn to secrecy. Are you suggesting...

Numbers are a rogue's game, as even in Argentina only 10 percent attend services regularly.

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/life/Inside+conclave+Behind+locked+doors/8101971/story.html
 

L Gilbert

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Hmmmmmmm.......I didn't realize that being "popular" was a requirement for becoming Pope.
Look, fool. All I said was that this new guy seems likely to be more popular than Benny and Coldslime pops up with an argument about Benny being some great theologian. Try to keep up, willya.




Actually, the Ad hominem came from you.
Where?

RC church is booming.
Not according to your Wiki stats. "On 31 December 2011, membership was 1.196 billion, an increase of 11.54% over the same date in 2000, which was only slightly greater than the rate of increase of the world population (10.77%). " A slightly greater increase is hardly booming.
 

gerryh

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I can't see much of a change in this pope, really, although he seems more apt to be popular than the last putz, er pontiff I mean.
New pope heralds 'hope and change' but you won't believe what he said about gays
Is the New Pope More Liberal Than the Last Two? Why It's Hard to Tell - Emily Chertoff - The Atlantic


ad hominem attack on His Holiness.

Red-herring. Did that make him popular with Catholics?
Ad hominem. And perhaps you should try discussing my point rather than hopping on the fallacious-argument wagon.

Look, fool. All I said was that this new guy seems likely to be more popular than Benny and Coldslime pops up with an argument about Benny being some great theologian. Try to keep up, willya.
if that

and then you asked if that made him popular and I stated that I didn't realize that popularity was required. It appears to me that, in this case, you are the one having a problem "keeping up".




Not according to your Wiki stats. "On 31 December 2011, membership was 1.196 billion, an increase of 11.54% over the same date in 2000, which was only slightly greater than the rate of increase of the world population (10.77%). " A slightly greater increase is hardly booming.


Considering the "atheists" keep saying that people are "leaving the Church in droves" I would say any increase would be a boom and also shows how much those same atheists are liars.
 

L Gilbert

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ad hominem attack on His Holiness.
Huh? Who here is arguing with "his holiness"? It seems you don't know what an ad hominem argument is. Let me help: Ad hominem - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Nah, what I did was insult the previous "his holiness"; no argument involved.

if that

and then you asked if that made him popular and I stated that I didn't realize that popularity was required. It appears to me that, in this case, you are the one having a problem "keeping up".
No-one said it was required. I simply stated my opinion that this new dude might be more popular than Benny, "his holiness" the Putz. Coldslime retorted with a fallacious argument (red herring) that had nothing to do with what I observed. Instead of arguing that Benny was very popular and no way this new guy could be that popular, Coldslime spewed some gibberish about Benny being a theologian.

Considering the "atheists" keep saying that people are "leaving the Church in droves" I would say any increase would be a boom
Well, that's your opinion.
and also shows how much those same atheists are liars.
.... or they're just plain, old mistaken.
 

gerryh

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L Gilbert

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Your attempted character assassination of His Holiness Pope Benedict was also an "Ad Hominem", IMO.
Oh, well. For one thing, it wasn't an attempted anything. It was a direct insult. For another, you still don't seem to quite grasp the concept of "ad hominem" pertaining to discussions/arguments/debates.



I also didn't say argument, I said attack.
Fine, but it's still irrelevant to what I said about being popular being a separate issue from being a theologian.
 

damngrumpy

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I think they just opened the door to more of the same. The problem is they have to change
to meet the aspirations of the twenty first century. The anti gay thing is one example then
the abortion issue which I concede would be difficult. Why not have women priests and for
that matter why not let the clergy in all its form be married?
Living in the centuries past is not going help down the road. One conservative after another
sits on the golden throne and no change comes. This is the reason people like me don't go
back to see what might be happening. Like a Soap Opera the dialogue goes on and nothing
of substance happens or changes
 

darkbeaver

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If the man don't fit the office the office don't function like the label says therefore the man is same as the last man, in every detail that matters, and theology isn't one of the details.
 

Goober

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For those that wondered who was the 2nd non European Pope. The first was easy.

Sorry, Jorge Mario Bergoglio is not the first non-European pope
Here’s a (again, probably incomplete) list of the non-European popes I was able to find in a cursory overview, with each pope’s place of birth and the period of his reign:

1) Saint Peter: Bethsaida, modern-day Israel(33 – 64 A.D.)
2) Pope Saint Evaristus: Bethlehem, modern-day West Bank (97 – 105)
3) Pope Saint Anicetus: Emesa (today known as Homs), Syria (155 – 166)
4) Pope Saint Victor I: Leptis Magna, modern-day Libya (189 – 199)
5) Pope Saint Miltiades: Somewhere in North Africa (311 – 314)
6) Pope Theodore I: Jerusalem, modern-day Israel and West Bank (642 – 649)
7) Pope John V: Antioch, then Syria but today part of Turkey (685 – 686)
8 Pope Sisinnius: Syria (708
9) Pope Constantine: Syria (708 – 715)
10) Pope Gregory III: Syria (731 – 741)

And now number 11! Pope Francis I: Buenos Aires, Argentina (2013 – ?)
 

The Old Medic

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Pope Francis became the Pope the instant that he accepted the nomination. It is NOT the election that makes him Pope, it is his acceptance of the election that does this.

There have been instances where a person was elected, but refused to accept the post. In tat case, the Cardinals must go back and vote again, until they elect a person that does accept.

Everything else beyond that instant of acceptance of the position is just "Window Dressing". He is the Pope from the moment of acceptance, to the moment he dies or resigns.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I guess if I had a name like Jorge Bergoglio, I'd want to change it too. Probably would go with something a little cooler than Francis, though.

How 'bout "Pope Steve?"
 

coldstream

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There was undoubtedly complicity between some prelates of the Catholic Church and the murderous juntas of the both the Videla and Pinochet (Chile) regimes... but several of the opponents of the Argentine regime at the time have stated the Bergoglio was not amongst them.

First of in the late 1970s he was not a prelate.. but held the role of Jesuit Provincial.. a rather modest pastoral and administrative role in the Society.. where he would have had minimal interaction with politics. He has consistently been an opponent of Liberation Theology.. but was a member of Communion and Liberation.. an organization of social activism for the poor that was organized to provide an alternative to the strong Marxist ideology (fundamentally atheistic) of the former.

The story with the two priests (Francisco Jalics and Orlando Yorio) were that he told them to leave their posts.. which involved political activism on their parts (which clerics are not supposed to involve themselves with in any case) because he had learned they had become targets of the regime's 'mechanics'.

He told them to accept re-assignment (he did NOT 'fire' them).. but they refused and were subsequently arrested. There is simply no evidence.. and it would have been against his entire life's work and ethics.. to turn over 'lists'. These individuals were well known to Videla's assassins, as they worked openly.. and the regime had spies everywhere.

He then went personally to Videla.. arranging to replace the priest who normally gave the general his Mass.. and pleaded for the lives of the two.. who were subsequently released.

I've stated before that his role on a smaller scale was comparable to that of Pius XII in WW2.. who worked quietly behind the scenes to shelter as many as 800,000 Jews and other Nazi targets in Catholic refuges.

Pius was criticized widely after the war for not directly and vocally confronting the Nazis. But we all know that would have only made the Catholic Church and Catholics targets of Nazi violence.. and would not have saved lives.. likely just the opposite.
 
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darkbeaver

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There was undoubtedly complicity between some prelates of the Catholic Church and the murderous juntas of the both the Videla and Pinochet (Chile) regimes... but several of the opponents of the Argentine regime at the time have stated the Bergoglio was not amongst them.

First of in the late 1970s he was not a prelate.. but held the role of Jesuit Provincial.. a rather modest pastoral and administrative role in the Society.. where he would have had minimal interaction with politics. He has consistently been an opponent of Liberation Theology.. but was a member of Communion and Liberation.. an organization of social activism for the poor that was organized to provide an alternative to the strong Marxist ideology (fundamentally atheistic) of the former.

The story with the two priests (Francisco Jalics and Orlando Yorio) were that he told them to leave their posts.. which involved political activism on their parts (which clerics are not supposed to involve themselves with in any case) because he had learned they had become targets of the regime's 'mechanics'.

He told them to accept re-assignment (he did NOT 'fire' them).. but they refused and were subsequently arrested. There is simply no evidence.. and it would have been against his entire life's work and ethics.. to turn over 'lists'. These individuals were well known to Videla's assassins, as they worked openly.. and the regime had spies everywhere.

He then went personally to Videla.. arranging to replace the priest who normally gave the general his Mass.. and pleaded for the lives of the two.. who were subsequently released.

I've stated before that his role on a smaller scale was comparable to that of Pius XII in WW2.. who worked quietly behind the scenes to shelter as many as 800,000 Jews and other Nazi targets in Catholic refuges.

Pius was criticized widely after the war for not directly and vocally confronting the Nazis. But we all know that would have only made the Catholic Church and Catholics targets of Nazi violence.. and would not have saved lives.. likely just the opposite.

The church is an institution of and for the elite, it has zip to do with any god save gold.
 

darkbeaver

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‘Smoking Gun’ Memo Proves Pope Francis Collaborated with Military Junta

By Global Research News
Global Research, March 18, 2013
Url of this article:
‘Smoking Gun’ Memo Proves Pope Francis Collaborated with Military Junta | Global Research
By Brett Wilkins
Allegations that Jorge Bergoglio, now Pope Francis I, collaborated with Argentina’s brutal military dictatorship have been circulating for decades. The Pope, and the Vatican he now heads, have vehemently denied these allegations.
The Vatican has dismissed the allegations against the new Pope as a “left-wing anti-clerical attack on the church.” Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi insisted there has never been a “concrete or credible accusation” against Bergoglio. On Sunday, an Argentinian newspaper published a government memo that seems to definitively prove that Bergoglio did indeed provide information to the murderous dictatorship, informing authorities about allegations against two Jesuit priests who were kidnapped, tortured and imprisoned for five months for allegedly contacting anti-regime leftist guerrillas.
Furthermore, Gregoglio is alleged to have sold the priests out even while he personally promised them his protection. On March 13, Digital Journal published a lengthy article detailing Jorge Bergoglio’s– and the Argentine Catholic church’s– alleged role in collaborating with that country’s brutal, US-backed military dictatorship, a regime characterized by kidnapping, torture, murder and disappearance. As many as 30,000 people, from students, trade unionists, journalists and leftists and their sympathizers to children and even pregnant women (whose babies were stolen), were killed or disappeared during the 1976-1983 ‘Dirty War,’ which was fully supported by the Carter and Reagan administrations.
Many of the mo

DB Faith in any institution this old and rotten is faith misplaced. There will be no peace on an earth fouled by this mob of murdering, thieves and liars.DB
 

Goober

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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/w...popes-connection-to-kidnapping.html?ref=world

CARACAS, Venezuela — A Jesuit priest whose kidnapping by the Argentine military raised questions about the actions of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, during that country’s so-called Dirty War said in a statement this week that Father Bergoglio did not initiate the detention by reporting him and another priest to the authorities.

“These are the facts: Orlando Yorio and I were not reported by Father Bergoglio,” Father Franz Jalics said in the statement posted on a German Jesuit Web site, mentioning the other priest who was kidnapped with him in 1976. The statement was dated Wednesday. “It is thus wrong to claim that our capture was initiated by Father Bergoglio.”

But the statement by Father Jalics did not address a contention by Father Yorio, who died in 2000, that Father Bergoglio had sought to undermine their work in a Buenos Aires slum, taking steps that may have left them vulnerable to the military. Father Bergoglio was head of the Jesuit order in Argentina at the time of their kidnapping.

Father Jalics wrote that the new statement was meant to clarify a previous online statement posted shortly after Francis was chosen as pope last week, in which he did not address Francis’ role in the events around the kidnapping.