Neil Young blasts Harper government for allowing development of Alberta oilsands

[Simple Man]

Like all resources should be.

But do you really want our govts to handle such a huge responsibility?

Not our current one that's for sure. I found this article compelling and wonder why a similar system / mentality cannot work here.

The Tyee – Rolf Wiborg's Tough Love for Canada

 

[petros]

Imagine if the resource were nationalized?

Did we really sell off PetroCanada. How much of Suncor and PetroCan do you think we still own in various investment funds? How much of Shell, ExxonMobil, Husky, Syncrude, Nexen and the likes have we invested into and make dividends on top of royalties and taxes?

A little slight of hand is all it takes to make people think we ditched a nationalized oil industry. Crown assets are hard to track down but if you'd like to see how much stock in energy the Govt owns in the CPP fund I can give you a link.


SEC FORM 13-F Information Table

We own 1,036,025 shares in Suncor in the CPP fund alone. Do you think that is enough to have a big say in the direction of the company?

 

[Simple Man]

Did we really sell off PetroCanada. How much of Suncor and PetroCan do you think we still own in various investment funds? How much of Shell, ExxonMobil, Husky, Syncrude, Nexen and the likes have we invested into and make dividends on top of royalties and taxes?

A little slight of hand is all it takes to make people think we ditched a nationalized oil industry. Crown assets are hard to track down but if you'd like to see how much stock in energy the Govt owns in the CPP fund I can give you a link.


SEC FORM 13-F Information Table

We own 1,036,025 shares in Suncor in the CPP fund alone. Do you think that is enough to have a big say in the direction of the company?

I don't think it's the same. What you describe in my mind amounts to no more than speculating on a resource that we owned to start with. Almost like we try to hedge our bets on something we don't have a clear picture of the value of so we defer to "expert" entities and ride their coat tails hoping they are right. To further our chances of realizing a net profit we pander to them in various ways in the further hope that this will increase our chances of capitalizing on an investment in a resource that we owned in the first place.

 

[petros]

I don't think it's the same. What you describe in my mind amounts to no more than speculating on a resource that we owned to start with. Almost like we try to hedge our bets on something we don't have a clear picture of the value of so we defer to "expert" entities and ride their coat tails hoping they are right. To further our chances of realizing a net profit we pander to them in various ways in the further hope that this will increase our chances of capitalizing on an investment in a resource that we owned in the first place.

Ownership is ownership if it were still fully Crown there would be 34 million shares. 1 for each of us.

We know what are reserves are and know production rates, who is extracting the resource and how well it is being managed. It's pretty easy to calculate the potential income

165Billion barrels in the oil sands alone. We haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to conventional oil and natural gas.

We'll be peddling oil and gas for the next 200 years.

 

[Simple Man]

We know what are reserves are and know production rates, who is extracting the resource and how well it is being managed. It's pretty easy to calculate the potential income

165Billion barrels in the oil sands alone. We haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to conventional oil and natural gas.

We'll be peddling oil and gas for the next 200 years.

Why peddle it when we could be SELLING it?

 

[CDNBear]

Is there a better way to extract it though Petros?

 

[taxslave]

Lessons to be learnt from America.
Chris Hedges Sits Down With Bill Moyers - YouTube

And, its not just the environmentally sensitive or the celebrity that agree with Neil Young. In fact, 77% of respondents to an Edmonton Journal poll agree.

All of whom benefit directly from Alberta oil. More hypocrites.

 

[captain morgan]

I don't think it's the same. What you describe in my mind amounts to no more than speculating on a resource that we owned to start with. Almost like we try to hedge our bets on something we don't have a clear picture of the value of so we defer to "expert" entities and ride their coat tails hoping they are right. To further our chances of realizing a net profit we pander to them in various ways in the further hope that this will increase our chances of capitalizing on an investment in a resource that we owned in the first place.

Great idea to nationalize.

So, are you, as a taxpayer, prepared to direct tens or possible hundreds of billions into the oil sands to drill, develop, process and refine?

Yeah, I thought not.

Here's a hint for ya: PET tried that in the '70s and it failed for a variety of reasons, especially the necessary investment capital required to develop Western conventional assets.

The result will be this: Nationalize the resource and not one thin dime of investment money will come in. Also, the human capital, technology and truly talented people will be scooped-up to work for market value outside of Canada.

What you'll be left with is the scenario of dealing with Mother Nature's largest oil spill

 

[Simple Man]

Great idea to nationalize.

So, are you, as a taxpayer, prepared to direct tens or possible hundreds of billions into the oil sands to drill, develop, process and refine?

Yeah, I thought not.

Here's a hint for ya: PET tried that in the '70s and it failed for a variety of reasons, especially the necessary investment capital required to develop Western conventional assets.

The result will be this: Nationalize the resource and not one thin dime of investment money will come in. Also, the human capital, technology and truly talented people will be scooped-up to work for market value outside of Canada.

What you'll be left with is the scenario of dealing with Mother Nature's largest oil spill

This strikes me as being as alarmist as the "greenies" so many in this thread like to bash.

Norway has done it....why can't we.

And yes I would be prepared to see my tax dollars go towards such an investment...first glance anyway. Would it be so much different than the billions that go into propping up the industry as it stands now?

 

[captain morgan]

This strikes me as being as alarmist as the "greenies" so many in this thread like to bash.

Norway has done it....why can't we.

Huge differences from the get-go.

One example is that Norway's resource is off-shore. The cost of building an offshore platform is very high, however, you can drill dozens of wells from that one source once in place... Not so with resopect to land-based extraction

.. But that is an aside. Canada is a different nation, with a different system and a different economy.

Honestly, if you wish to select energy as the commodity to nationalize, why stop there? There is forestry, manufacturing, financial services, fast-food, mining, etc, etc.

You can assess the historical successes of those nations that took that road... It ain't pretty

By the way, this fantsay about the taxpayer 'propping-up' the industry is horse sh*t.

Really, do just a tiny bit of research and it will be clear that this is no where near the case, except in the minds of WWF'ers and Greenpeace'ers

 

[taxslave]

Imagine if the resource were nationalized?


It would appear that you are too young to remember Dome petroleum.
Nationalizing resources is not the answer. Maximizing the amount of revenue governments collect from people willing to take the risk to extract and process resources in a safe manner is where it is at.

I don't think it's the same. What you describe in my mind amounts to no more than speculating on a resource that we owned to start with. Almost like we try to hedge our bets on something we don't have a clear picture of the value of so we defer to "expert" entities and ride their coat tails hoping they are right. To further our chances of realizing a net profit we pander to them in various ways in the further hope that this will increase our chances of capitalizing on an investment in a resource that we owned in the first place.

Which is exactly what your union pension plan does.In fact plans like the Ontario Teachers Pension are among the worst at rape and pillage tactics to maximize returns at the expense of other union jobs.

 

[Simple Man]

Huge differences from the get-go.

One example is that Norway's resource is off-shore. The cost of building an offshore platform is very high, however, you can drill dozens of wells from that one source once in place... Not so with resopect to land-based extraction

.. But that is an aside. Canada is a different nation, with a different system and a different economy.

Honestly, if you wish to select energy as the commodity to nationalize, why stop there? There is forestry, manufacturing, financial services, fast-food, mining, etc, etc.

You can assess the historical successes of those nations that took that road... It ain't pretty

By the way, this fantsay about the taxpayer 'propping-up' the industry is horse sh*t.

Really, do just a tiny bit of research and it will be clear that this is no where near the case, except in the minds of WWF'ers and Greenpeace'ers

Different Nation, different system, different economy....whatever. They are doing it we are not judging by our lack of bargaining skills.

And yes why stop there (uh...I gotta draw the line at fast food though). We are rich in resources....the envy of many many people in many countries. So why is it we seem to feel the need to kiss the *** of so many outside interests in exchange for deals such as FIPA. Why need we be held ransom when we collectively possess all we need right here right now?

It's confusing to me, a simple man, that we seem to have it all but fall over (or bend over forwards) backwards to give it away because we feel we need others to show us the way.

 

[Nuggler]

550,000 Canadians work in energy. last year $64Billion in Capital Costs were paid out by oil, $17Billion in Fed royalty revenues, AB made $4.7 Billion in provincial royalties and the Fed and provinces tax the earnings and spending of those 550,000 people. Oil will be creating 935,000 direct jobs in the next 20 years. Those 1,850,000 direct jobs will create just as many in other jobs.

Can you name any place anywhere in the else in the world that will pay people to get the skills they need to get into trades and are handed a high paid job on a silver platter upon course completion?

All anyone needs to do is show up and they are set for life.

Too soon old and too soon old. Dammit !!

 

[taxslave]

Different Nation, different system, different economy....whatever. They are doing it we are not judging by our lack of bargaining skills.

And yes why stop there (uh...I gotta draw the line at fast food though). We are rich in resources....the envy of many many people in many countries. So why is it we seem to feel the need to kiss the *** of so many outside interests in exchange for deals such as FIPA. Why need we be held ransom when we collectively possess all we need right here right now?

It's confusing to me, a simple man, that we seem to have it all but fall over (or bend over forwards) backwards to give it away because we feel we need others to show us the way.

Mostly because we do not have the capital necessary to do these things on our own. That is both money and human capital. All major projects have experts and shareholders from all over the world involved. Experience with government owning and attempting to operate resource companies has been a disaster of epic proportions.

 

[Simple Man]

Imagine if the resource were nationalized?


It would appear that you are too young to remember Dome petroleum.

Maybe not too young but probably not cognisant of the circumstance. I haven't looked at it but my first thought say it must be some endeavour that failed. I promise to look it up but many things fail, then do not fail after subsequent attempts bolstered by hindsight.


Which is exactly what your union pension plan does.In fact plans like the Ontario Teachers Pension are among the worst at rape and pillage tactics to maximize returns at the expense of other union jobs.

Haha...yeah. No pension plan here brutha...

 

[petros]

Is there a better way to extract it though Petros?

Only 30% is minable the rest insitu. The 30% that is being mined is too shallow for insitu.

 

[Simple Man]

Mostly because we do not have the capital necessary to do these things on our own. That is both money and human capital. All major projects have experts and shareholders from all over the world involved. Experience with government owning and attempting to operate resource companies has been a disaster of epic proportions.

And yet Norway deals with these self same shareholders and experts. I think we sell ourselves short.

 

[captain morgan]

Different Nation, different system, different economy....whatever. They are doing it we are not judging by our lack of bargaining skills.

Look what happened when Venezuela did exactly what you have proposed... ALL the investment left, that political risk trickled through to other sectors and their economy went in the crapper.

Then again, you can always emulate North Korea.. That country is a ragingly successful model

And yes why stop there (uh...I gotta draw the line at fast food though). We are rich in resources....the envy of many many people in many countries. So why is it we seem to feel the need to kiss the *** of so many outside interests in exchange for deals such as FIPA. Why need we be held ransom when we collectively possess all we need right here right now?

Do you have the money to develop them?

I didn't think so... So until you (read: Canada) has those trillions in the bank just waiting to be spent, you are living on Fantasy Island

It's confusing to me, a simple man, that we seem to have it all but fall over (or bend over forwards) backwards to give it away because we feel we need others to show us the way.

Do you get your car filled-up for free?

How about any medications, plastics or even groceries on the shelves at the local store?.. Those at no cost to you?

Wake up man and maybe, just maybe take the step to learn a bit about economics and human psychology before waxing philosophically about 'what if'

And yet Norway deals with these self same shareholders and experts. I think we sell ourselves short.

Already gave you a starting point on the practical, industry differences between the 2 nations. If you want to ignore that, fine, but enough of the rookie musings, m'kay?

 

[taxslave]

And yet Norway deals with these self same shareholders and experts. I think we sell ourselves short.

I think you may be confusing terms. Nationalize generally means the government owning and taking over the day to day operations of the company. That is not the same as maximizing returns to the nation.

 

[Simple Man]

Look what happened when Venezuela did exactly what you have proposed... ALL the investment left, that political risk trickled through to other sectors and their economy went in the crapper.

Then again, you can always emulate North Korea.. That country is a ragingly successful model



Do you have the money to develop them?

I didn't think so... So until you (read: Canada) has those trillions in the bank just waiting to be spent, you are living on Fantasy Island



Do you get your car filled-up for free?

How about any medications, plastics or even groceries on the shelves at the local store?.. Those at no cost to you?

Wake up man and maybe, just maybe take the step to learn a bit about economics and human psychology before waxing philosophically about 'what if'



Already gave you a starting point on the practical, industry differences between the 2 nations. If you want to ignore that, fine, but enough of the rookie musings, m'kay?

I'll wax all I want grandpa....it's part of the learning process for me. I haven't flung muck at you for your condescending manner so save it. I'm trying to get a clear picture. I like this forum. You don't have to reply but I hope you do, and can manage it without the rolly eyes.