Neanderthals Not Totally Extinct

Dexter Sinister

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Your first point is not verifiable.
Sure it is. It's pretty much common knowledge that at least two hominid species, homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis, co-existed.
The human race can be traced back to a single set of parents, exlusively to those parents, and not prior to that.
That's not true either. You should read Dawkins' The Ancestors Tale; every living thing on the planet has a common ancestor if you go back far enough.
Similarities in genetic composition do NOT attest to a monolithic universal ancestry, even amongst primates, they merely attest to a universal composition.. and hence a Composer.
Wrong again. Genetics clearly demonstrates that we're all related. You can't base any argument for a divine Composer on the observed diversity of life, evolution provides a perfectly satisfactory naturalistic explanation for it.
 

L Gilbert

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So you can google. That's no evidence that you understand what it is you can google, though.
From a more expanded and specific taxonomy chart:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae
Tribe: Hominini
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens
Neanderthal taxonomy shows that they were:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: H. neanderthalensis
  • Family - Hominidae [great apes, hominids; fist-walking; family with Ponginae, Orangutans, also included, oldest living ones, common ancestor with them]
  • Subfamily - Homininae [or hominines; knuckle-walking; includes gorillas but not orangutans]
Species - Pierolapithecus catalaunicus
  • Tribe - Hominini [or hominins; includes chimpanzees but not gorillas]
Species - Sahelanthropus tchadensis, possible common ancestor with chimpanzees[citation needed]Species - Orrorin tugenensis, may be an early species after split with chimpanzees[citation needed]
  • Subtribe - Hominina [or hominans; upright bipedalism; humans are the only surviving species]
Genus - Ardipithecus [Human lineage]Genus - KenyanthropusGenus - Australopithecus [Human lineage; made tools found]
  • Genus - Homo [or humans; specific and specialized development of memory/learning/teaching/learning application (learning driven ethology)]
Species - Homo habilis [refined stone technology; earliest fire control]Species - Homo ergaster [extensive language, complex articulate language]Species - Homo erectus [fire control, cooking; aesthetic/artistic refinement of tools]Species - Homo heidelbergensis [possible earliest sanitary burial of deads, accompanied with symbolic/formal supplement]
  • Species - Homo sapiens [further development and specialization of learning application); active environment transformation, acclimatization and control; infrastructures and advanced technology]
Subspecies - Homo sapiens idaltu
 
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petros

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L Gilbert

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So where are the half chimp half humans? Do I have to look far?

Keep trying.

Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds

Next I'll lead you into physiology if you can handle it.

Discrimination of Line Orientation in Humans and Monkeys -- Vzquez et al. 83 (5): 2639 -- Journal of Neurophysiology



We never evoloved from apes. We still are apes.
Reread my post. I edited it because some of it didn't show up.
Neanderthal and Sapiens are the same species.
Or just read a little in this spot: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Neanderthal and Sapiens related&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws
 

petros

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Physiology is far to different. I've read the article and it says the genes that are similar are for bone structure and some cognative. Both come from common ancestors not interbreeding. Don't fall for the crazy creationist ****.

A whale shark is a fish and so is a guppy. Show me a guppy shark.

The non-creationist version of the story that started it all. Signs of Neanderthals Mating With Humans - NYTimes.com
 

L Gilbert

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Physiology is far to different. I've read the article and it says the genes that are similar are for structure and some cognative which because of physiological differences can't mate.
Which article? The one about chimps and humans?
A whale shark is a fish and so is a guppy. Show me a guppy shark.
Look for yourself.

Your original claim was that H. Neanderthal and H. Sapiens could not interbreed because they weren't the same species. You were wrong. They are the same species.
If they did not interbreed, how did neanderthal genomes get into sapiens? Cannibalism?
So far, it is you that produces the malarkey.
 

petros

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Which article? The one about chimps and humans?
Look for yourself.

Your original claim was that H. Neanderthal and H. Sapiens could not interbreed because they weren't the same species. You were wrong. They are the same species.
If they did not interbreed, how did neanderthal genomes get into sapiens? Cannibalism?
So far, it is you that produces the malarkey.
Ever heard of sub species and their drastic physiological differences?

Here is another homo.

Looks like a pre-neanderthal doesn't it?

Meet Homo habilis. The "handy man" who has similiar bone structure and cognative skills to both neanderthals and sapien because it is their common ancestor with the same damn genes.

Go figure!
 

petros

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The article:

So far, the team has identified only about 100 genes — surprisingly few — that have contributed to the evolution of modern humans since the split. The nature of the genes in humans that differ from those of Neanderthals is of particular interest because they bear on what it means to be human, or at least not Neanderthal. Some of the genes seem to be involved in cognitive function and others in bone structure.

But the new analysis, which is based solely on genetics and statistical calculations, is more difficult to match with the archaeological record. The Leipzig scientists assert that the interbreeding did not occur in Europe but in the Middle East and at a much earlier period, some 100,000 to 60,000 years ago, before the modern human populations of Europe and East Asia split. There is much less archaeological evidence for an overlap between modern humans and Neanderthals at this time and place.

Dr. Paabo has pioneered the extraction and analysis of ancient DNA from fossil bones, overcoming daunting obstacles over the last 13 years in his pursuit of the Neanderthal genome. Perhaps the most serious is that most Neanderthal bones are extensively contaminated with modern human DNA, which is highly similar to Neanderthal DNA. The DNA he has analyzed comes from three small bones from the Vindija cave in Croatia.

“This is a fabulous achievement,” said Ian Tattersall, a paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, referring to the draft Neanderthal genome that Dr. Paabo’s team describes in Thursday’s issue of Science.

But he and other archaeologists questioned some of the interpretations put forward by Dr. Paabo and his chief colleagues, Richard E. Green of the Leipzig institute, and David Reich of Harvard Medical School. Geneticists have been making increasingly valuable contributions to human prehistory, but their work depends heavily on complex mathematical statistics that make their arguments hard to follow. And the statistical insights, however informative, do not have the solidity of an archaeological fact.

“This is probably not the authors’ last word, and they are obviously groping to explain what they have found,” Dr. Tattersall said.
 

L Gilbert

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Ever heard of sub species and their drastic physiological differences?
Yup. But if subspecies is what you meant then you should have said so.

Here is another homo.

Looks like a pre-neanderthal doesn't it?

Meet Homo habilis. The "handy man" who has similiar bone structure and cognative skills to both neanderthals and sapien because it is their common ancestor with the same damn genes.

Go figure!
I don't have to figure.
You still haven't explained how neanderthal genomes got into sapiens if it wasn't from interbreeding.
 

L Gilbert

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The article:
......... says
The Leipzig scientists assert that the interbreeding did not occur in Europe but in the Middle East and at a much earlier period, some 100,000 to 60,000 years ago, before the modern human populations of Europe and East Asia split. There is much less archaeological evidence for an overlap between modern humans and Neanderthals at this time and place.
And
Perhaps the most serious {obstacle} is that most Neanderthal bones are extensively contaminated with modern human DNA, which is highly similar to Neanderthal DNA
Do you still want to contend that neanderthal and sapiens didn't mix?
 

petros

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The Leipzig scientists assert that the interbreeding did not occur in Europe but in the Middle East and at a much earlier period, some 100,000 to 60,000 years ago, before the (now for the key phrase) modern human populations of Europe and East Asia split.
Thank you!

Once again.
Quote:
So far, the team has identified only about 100 genes — surprisingly few — that have contributed to the evolution of modern humans since the split. The nature of the genes in humans that differ from those of Neanderthals is of particular interest because they bear on what it means to be human, or at least not Neanderthal. Some of the genes seem to be involved in cognitive function and others in bone structure.
But the new analysis, which is based solely on genetics and statistical calculations, is more difficult to match with the archaeological record. The Leipzig scientists assert that the interbreeding did not occur in Europe but in the Middle East and at a much earlier period, some 100,000 to 60,000 years ago, before the modern human populations of Europe and East Asia split. There is much less archaeological evidence for an overlap between modern humans and Neanderthals at this time and place.
Dr. Paabo has pioneered the extraction and analysis of ancient DNA from fossil bones, overcoming daunting obstacles over the last 13 years in his pursuit of the Neanderthal genome. Perhaps the most serious is that most Neanderthal bones are extensively contaminated with modern human DNA, which is highly similar to Neanderthal DNA. The DNA he has analyzed comes from three...


some 100,000 to 60,000 years ago
How old is sapien again L.Gilbert?

What do they mean by split? Common ancestor that went to sapien and went neanderthal?

This was supposed to have posted a few back but is just icing on the cake.
“This is a fabulous achievement,” said Ian Tattersall, a paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, referring to the draft Neanderthal genome that Dr. Paabo’s team describes in Thursday’s issue of Science.
But he and other archaeologists questioned some of the interpretations put forward by Dr. Paabo and his chief colleagues, Richard E. Green of the Leipzig institute, and David Reich of Harvard Medical School. Geneticists have been making increasingly valuable contributions to human prehistory, but their work depends heavily on complex mathematical statistics that make their arguments hard to follow. And the statistical insights, however informative, do not have the solidity of an archaeological fact.
“This is probably not the authors’ last word, and they are obviously groping to explain what they have found,” Dr. Tattersall said.
 

L Gilbert

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No. The key phrase is "interbreeding".

"How old is sapien again L.Gilbert?" The modern form showed up a minimum of 100,000 years ago.

"What do they mean by split? Common ancestor that went to sapien and went neanderthal?" I think they meant physically separated by distance.

Again, if no interbreeding happened, how did neanderthal genomes get into sapiens DNA?
 

petros

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And now from the article written in Science:
Science/AAAS | Background - The Neandertal Genome


Were the Leipzig scientists were first published.
Introduction

Recent advances in high-throughput DNA sequencing have provided initial glimpses of the nuclear genome of Neandertals as well as other ancient mammals including cave bears and mammoths. In the 7 May 2010 issue of Science, an international team of researchers presents the draft sequence of the Neandertal genome composed of over 3 billion nucleotides from three individuals.
Because Neandertals are much closer kin to us than are chimpanzees, which diverged from the human lineage 5 to 7 million years ago, matching Neandertal DNA against our own has the potential to reveal genetic changes that help define who we are.


About Neandertals
Neandertals (Homo neanderthalensis) are currently believed to be our closest evolutionary relatives. Although some researchers once thought they were our immediate ancestors in Europe, most now agree that Neandertals and modern humans most likely shared a common ancestor within the last 500,000 years, possibly in Africa.
The morphological features typical of Neandertals first appear in the European fossil record about 400,000 years ago, with bones of full-fledged Neandertals showing up at least 130,000 years ago. They lived in Europe and western Asia, as far east as southern Siberia and as far south as the Middle East (see map), before disappearing from the fossil record about 30,000 years ago.

They were a different species so it was impossible they interbred. Two complete different beasts. One sapien the other neanderthal.

I won't make fun of you either. Taxonomy is freakin' complex.

No. The key phrase is "interbreeding".

"How old is sapien again L.Gilbert?" The modern form showed up about 100,000 years ago.

"What do they mean by split? Common ancestor that went to sapien and went neanderthal?" I think they meant physically separated by distance.

Again, if no interbreeding happened, how did neanderthal genomes get into sapiens DNA?

I still won't make fun of you.
 

L Gilbert

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And now from the article written in Science:
Science/AAAS | Background - The Neandertal Genome
Were the Leipzig scientists were first published.
I still won't make fun of you.
I don't care. If neanderthal and sapiens never interbred, how did neanderthal genomes get into sapiens DNA?

You were wrong that sapiens and neanderthal were different species and you are wrong that they did not interbreed.
 

Tonington

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Physiology is far to different. I've read the article and it says the genes that are similar are for bone structure and some cognative. Both come from common ancestors not interbreeding. Don't fall for the crazy creationist ****.

A whale shark is a fish and so is a guppy. Show me a guppy shark.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/science/07neanderthal.html

This is a nonsense analogy. A whale shark and guppy are separated evolutionarily by a wide margin. Their skeletons are different, their teeth are different, their osmoregulatory function and ability, excretion, different, sharks don't even have swim bladders, reproductive modes, different.

They're in completely different classes of fish, while humans and neanderthals are not.
 

Tonington

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The same way you are 96% chimp.

This doesn't make any sense. We share 96% of our genome with chimps, which traces back over 6 million years to our common ancestor. So we retained much of the same code, but selected gene mutations have evolved and account for the differences between species.

You can't make such a comparison to humans and neanderthals. Again, it's back to Africa. Those mutations the researchers have found and tracked are single-nucleotide changes, and are common to neanderthals, are not common to all humans. It's missing in African DNA.
 

AnnaG

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This doesn't make any sense. We share 96% of our genome with chimps, which traces back over 6 million years to our common ancestor. So we retained much of the same code, but selected gene mutations have evolved and account for the differences between species.

You can't make such a comparison to humans and neanderthals. Again, it's back to Africa. Those mutations the researchers have found and tracked are single-nucleotide changes, and are common to neanderthals, are not common to all humans. It's missing in African DNA.
Exactly.
hehe I don't know about you but I think this "coincidence" that Pet has concocted is really funny: the "coincidence" being that mostly only the sapiens around only one continent (Europe, where neanderthals just coincidentally coexisted without breeding with CMs) evolved neanderthal (a different subspecies) genomes.