Memories of Hanoi Jane

[CDNBear]

Yes, but a free man should also be able to look at what he is being "told" and decide that he will not, or can not participate in that action.

That's the thing about contractual obligations.

Not to mention, a volunteer knows that not every military action may come with ones own personal approval, let alone the worlds approval.

So...

When talking about the u.s. during the time of the Vietnamese action, there was no freedom for those boys that were sent to their deaths in the jungles of southeast asia.

No argument there.

Only the most callous and heartless would consider freedom bathed in the blood of innocents to be acceptable.

We've had this conversation before. Collateral damage sucks. Dresden Hiroshima, were still necessary.

It's a sad reality.

As real as those innocents that died while the US and Canada were becoming nations of their own.

Compartmentalization, isn't callousness. It's a coping mechanism.

 

[ironsides]

Yes, but a free man should also be able to look at what he is being "told" and decide that he will not, or can not participate in that action. When talking about the u.s. during the time of the Vietnamese action, there was no freedom for those boys that were sent to their deaths in the jungles of southeast asia.

If you are in the military and your country says you will be invading the North Pole, you don't take a vote on it, you just do it. Civilians can make that choice, not the military, after all they follow what Civilians tell them to do.

 

[gerryh]

If you are in the military and your country says you will be invading the North Pole, you don't take a vote on it, you just do it. Civilians can make that choice, not the military, after all they follow what Civilians tell them to do.

so, anything and everything the military does can be blamed on the civilian population. I just want to make sure I have this right before I continue.

 

[CDNBear]

so, anything and everything the military does can be blamed on the civilian population. I just want to make sure I have this right before I continue.

The military acts at the behest of the duly elected gov't. As you have pointed out to me in the past, when you chastise the American populace.

That is not to say that criminality of any kind, engaged in by military personnel is condoned by the populace. As we have standing orders that rule how we wage war, engage the enemy, treat noncombatants or otherwise conduct ourselves.

 

[gerryh]

The military acts at the behest of the duly elected gov't. As you have pointed out to me in the past, when you chastise the American populace.

That is not to say that criminality of any kind, engaged in by military personnel is condoned by the populace. As we have standing orders that rule how we wage war, engage the enemy, treat noncombatants or otherwise conduct ourselves.

I have been told in the past, by you, RCS, Eagle, and I'm not positive but am pretty sure, by ironside that the general population can NOT and should not be held accountable for what their government or military do. The military can not be held accountable for what they do as they are only following orders. Now, if we go round and round on this, no one can be held accountable for anything.

 

[Corduroy]

You keep saying this, but you've failed to tell us the riches that the US was after.

If he won't, I will. I can't remember where it was printed (maybe in the Pentagon Papers which Colpy mentioned) but it wasn't so much getting resources from Vietnam as it was maintaining the United States' strategic position in SE Asia so that Western capitalism had access to the resources of the region. Of course, that wasn't their only motivation, though any good jaded socialist would say even military reasons had an underlying economic motivation.

The fear was unfounded. As it turned out, Chinese and Vietnamese leadership were perfectly willing to sell their people out for a piece of the capital pie. After the war, it was still business as usual in SE Asia. In fact, one could argue that the exploitation of Asian labour for the benefit of Western capitalism increased under the Chinese and Vietnamese communists.

 

[CDNBear]

I have been told in the past, by you, RCS, Eagle, and I'm not positive but am pretty sure, by ironside that the general population can NOT and should not be held accountable for what their government or military do. The military can not be held accountable for what they do as they are only following orders. Now, if we go round and round on this, no one can be held accountable for anything.

Neat catch 22 eh.

If he won't, I will. I can't remember where it was printed (maybe in the Pentagon Papers which Colpy mentioned) but it wasn't so much getting resources from Vietnam as it was maintaining the United States' strategic position in SE Asia so that Western capitalism had access to the resources of the region. Of course, that wasn't their only motivation, though any good jaded socialist would say even military reasons had an underlying economic motivation.

Ya, nice connect the dots. But lets be rational here. That isn't what is always alluded to.

The fear was unfounded. As it turned out, Chinese and Vietnamese leadership were perfectly willing to sell their people out for a piece of the capital pie. After the war, it was still business as usual in SE Asia. In fact, one could argue that the exploitation of Asian labour for the benefit of Western capitalism increased under the Chinese and Vietnamese communists.

So the riches went to the socialists in this case. Sorta defeats the claim.

 

[Corduroy]

Ya, nice connect the dots. But lets be rational here. That isn't what is always alluded to.

It's really connecting dots. The US government said it out right, privately of course, and these admissions were later revealed, I think in the Pentagon Papers. And you're welcome to not believe me and call BS because I'm not motivated to look it up at the moment. Totally understandable. I wouldn't take that **** from someone else myself. .

But yeah, it isn't quite the same as saying the United States fought the Vietnam war to take resources from the Vietnamese.

So the riches went to the socialists in this case. Sorta defeats the claim.

In all honestly, I'm not even sure what the claim is anymore.

 

[CDNBear]

It's really connecting dots. The US government said it out right, privately of course, and these admissions were later revealed, I think in the Pentagon Papers. And you're welcome to not believe me and call BS because I'm not motivated to look it up at the moment. Totally understandable. I wouldn't take that **** from someone else myself. .

If it was at all germain to the claims, I'd look it up. Not that I dispute it.

But yeah, it isn't quite the same as saying the United States fought the Vietnam war to take resources from the Vietnamese.

Well that's the claim on the table.

In all honestly, I'm not even sure what the claim is anymore.

Simple, big bad US, the great satan, was in Vietnam to steal their riches.

And I'm still waiting for Cliffy to tell me what they are.

 

[Cliffy]

I read 40 years ago that US involvement was because of tin mines. Now I can find no reference to it, so, I may be wrong. By the way, labour is a resource and capitalists are still making a killing on cheep labour in the region. Also socialism and communism are two different animals.
The US right now is trying to tie up the oil rights in the South China Sea, via Vietnam, to prevent the Chinese from gaining control of it. Sounds like a dangerous game to be provoking that tiger.

 

[AbtFet]

Hanging would not have been an injustice.

Jesus christ...

 

[CDNBear]

Jesus christ...

No, he was crucified, not hanged,

 

[gerryh]

Neat catch 22 eh.

No, it's not. It's also not a catch 22, it's an example of people not willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

 

[CDNBear]

No, it's not. It's also not a catch 22, it's an example of people not willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

Who are we talking about?

 

[taxslave]

I have been told in the past, by you, RCS, Eagle, and I'm not positive but am pretty sure, by ironside that the general population can NOT and should not be held accountable for what their government or military do. The military can not be held accountable for what they do as they are only following orders. Now, if we go round and round on this, no one can be held accountable for anything.

Now you understand how government works.

 

[EagleSmack]

There is another way to look at the VietNam war. South VietNam was a corrupt regime
that was supported by the Americans. North VietNam simply wanted the Americans out
of their country. North Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia never attacked America but American
bombing killed close to four million civilians in those countries. Over sixty thousand
Americans lost their lives in that stupid war that gained no ground or achieved any advantage.
Jane Fonda could see what the rest of the world could see and did her best to protest against
that tragic, dopey war.

Over 60K? False

N Vietnam wanted a unified Vietnam and that was the issue... we were in the way.

Much like Gaddafi wants to keep his country unified while Canada leads a bombing campaign against them. Libya has not attacked Canada yet have they?

I have been told in the past, by you, RCS, Eagle, and I'm not positive but am pretty sure, by ironside that the general population can NOT and should not be held accountable for what their government or military do. The military can not be held accountable for what they do as they are only following orders. Now, if we go round and round on this, no one can be held accountable for anything.

You weren't told that by me.

 

[gerryh]

You weren't told that by me.

So the american public can be blamed for what their elected officials do and what their armed forces do?

 

[EagleSmack]

But yeah, it isn't quite the same as saying the United States fought the Vietnam war to take resources from the Vietnamese.

.

And what were their resources then? Now the resources are more cheap goods to fill our shelves which is why we now have a good relationship with Vietnam. We are all lovery dovey with them these days.

 

[lone wolf]

Michelin tires?

 

[EagleSmack]

So the american public can be blamed for what their elected officials do and what their armed forces do?

I'm simply saying that I didn't tell you exactly what you said I told you.

Michelin tires?

Do they make them over there now? I thought that was a Brit company.