Knowledge and wisdom

[Dexter Sinister]

And isn't a grasp of probability knowledge?

Probably... :lol:

We could get into some thorny semantic issues here though. You can know all about probability theory in an intellectual sense, which I'd certainly agree is knowledge by any definition, but the larger issue of whether or not you can do anything useful with it in running your life doesn't seem to me to be quite the same thing. For instance, suppose you meet somebody who can't swim, and you tell her, "Lie on your front in the water, flutter your feet like this [and you demonstrate], and move your arms like this [and you demonstrate]." She knows how to swim now in some sense, but do you think she could do it? I haven't thought this through completely, but I think I'd argue that skills and knowledge aren't the same thing, and you need them both to have any claim to wisdom.

 

[AnnaG]

LOL, that's cute.

To be honest, I don't believe that someone can be intelligent nor wise. Really, this relies on the 'theory': We all see the same portrait, yet we see a different scenario. There's no such thing as a "beautiful" person. We all hold our own standards and view our own exptectations. Someone walks by and receives two glances. The first guy thinks, "Wow, I'd hit that any day". The second guy thinks, "I've seen better". The alterations of defining a characteristic can also be applied to general/academic knowledge. For instance, someone who can achieve straight A's in all of their courses do not mean that they are smart (to me). Yes, they've gone way past average but only on the academic scale. And, I don't believe that academic intelligence is as significant as we make it.

You're basically saying wisdom and knowledge are subjective and relative.

What is knowledge and wisdom?

That's pretty much my opening question, yes, but not so much knowledge as wisdom.

To know.

That's the basic understanding. No elaboration because the two words elaborate enough. Your opinion strikes that definition and causes every change that you desire. It's just how you view it.

What one knows is called knowledge. If one understands what one knows, then perhaps wisdom can't be far off.

 

[AnnaG]

You say that despite what you've chosen as a user name? :smile:

lol.

 

[AnnaG]

Probably... :lol:

We could get into some thorny semantic issues here though. You can know all about probability theory in an intellectual sense, which I'd certainly agree is knowledge by any definition, but the larger issue of whether or not you can do anything useful with it in running your life doesn't seem to me to be quite the same thing. For instance, suppose you meet somebody who can't swim, and you tell her, "Lie on your front in the water, flutter your feet like this [and you demonstrate], and move your arms like this [and you demonstrate]." She knows how to swim now in some sense, but do you think she could do it? I haven't thought this through completely, but I think I'd argue that skills and knowledge aren't the same thing, and you need them both to have any claim to wisdom.

hhhmmm I'll have to think about that for a bit.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Yeah, men have 2 brains (1 above their shoulders and the other below the belt)...

Um... no, the lower one isn't a brain, it's just a head, and a small one too, no intelligence at all, just instinct. And when the little head rules the big head, the result is another body part that'll be asterixed out if I type it, but it begins with A and ends with HOLE. :smile:

 

[AnnaG]

I agree. lol

 

[darkbeaver]

How do we separate instinct from intelligence? How do we separate intuition from intelligence? I suggest that we can't. Memory is both inherited and aquired. We are not empty canvas when we get here. Progress requires accumulated wisdom be transferrable accross the generations. This is evolution, evolution requires it. Knowlege and the wisdom to manipulate it at the subconscious cellular level is a product of your ancestors. Intuition is reading and interpreting the environment at a different level of awareness than fully conscious.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Nice point but if so then the process should be explainable. There are times when my intuition kicks in and I can't find a reasonable explanation of why my intuition was correct.

Anna, it is quite possible that the process may be explainable. But for that you would have to be put under hypnosis and psychoanalyzed to work out the exact process by which the conclusion (the intuition) was arrived at.

The fact that the logical reasoning process was done by subconscious makes it difficult to understand by the conscious mind. But that doesn’t mean that it cannot be analyzed, just that it is more difficult.

Then it won't necessarily be a "logical, reasonable conclusion" because your explanation is missing the bits only your subconscious knows.

Perhaps. But that doesn’t mean it is necessarily illogical, empirical either. You will have to analyze the subconscious to find out.

"However, I think intuition is subconscious application of knowledge to the situation and coming up with a logical, reasonable conclusion."

That indeed is my opinion. And why do I say that it is a logical, reasonable process? Mainly because the conclusion happens to be right most of the time. In my opinion, anything that is right so often cannot really be empirical in nature, cannot be something that is pulled out of a hat. It must have a logical basis to it.

It is difficult to analyze the subconscious, so logical connection may not be all that easy to establish. However, it is there nonetheless, in my opinion.

 

[darkbeaver]

Subconsciously we are bombarded with information that is not easily incorporated or expressed by the rational mind. When we can't see or speak we can still feel our way arround tasks.

 

[JLM]

How do we separate instinct from intelligence? How do we separate intuition from intelligence? I suggest that we can't. Memory is both inherited and aquired. We are not empty canvas when we get here. Progress requires accumulated wisdom be transferrable accross the generations. This is evolution, evolution requires it. Knowlege and the wisdom to manipulate it at the subconscious cellular level is a product of your ancestors. Intuition is reading and interpreting the environment at a different level of awareness than fully conscious.

Not to mention "memory", knowledge from previous incarnations.

 

[darkbeaver]

Not to mention "memory", knowledge from previous incarnations.

That's a comforting thought for me personally.

 

[JLM]

That's a comforting thought for me personally.

I think there's definitely evidence to support it. Take the idiot savant, a person who is profoundly retarded and yet has one highly developed skill/talent, yet not the capacity to learn it, so he/she obviously had to get it from somewhere. Mozart apparent could play the keyboard at age three, the first time he saw one. Where did that come from?

 

[Cliffy]

Not to mention "memory", knowledge from previous incarnations.

Is not instinct a collective memory on the species level. There are many levels of knowledge from individual, familial, group, community, national and global.

In our small town I have noticed that there is a collective memory, on a subconscious level, that something happened in our early history that is to be kept quiet. I doubt that many know what the secret even is on a conscious level but many of the old timer are terrified that the "secret" will be let out. It is the only explanation I can find for people denying that aboriginal people ever lived in this area.

This place was a paradise 300 years ago, with an abundant food supply of salmon, caribou, deer, elk, bear and a great array of wild edible and medicinal plants that only an inland rain forest could produce in such abundance. There is archaeological records of 152 cultural sites and anthropological studies that say people lived here for 9000 years but the old timers are still adamant that they never lived here.

What I have found out is that when the railroad was built into this place to service the miners of the late 19th century, is that they slaughtered every man, woman and child. This is the great secret that the old timers do not want anybody to know about. I wonder if the living descendants of those first settlers and miners even know what the secret is that they are protecting.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Subconsciously we are bombarded with information that is not easily incorporated or expressed by the rational mind. When we can't see or speak we can still feel our way arround tasks.

Indeed, darkbeaver. I think that is how intuition works.

 

[JLM]

Indeed, darkbeaver. I think that is how intuition works.

Upon further mulling this over perhaps one more dimension is involved with wisdom, in that wisdom is essential for intelligent decision making.

 

[Unforgiven]

I think there's definitely evidence to support it. Take the idiot savant, a person who is profoundly retarded and yet has one highly developed skill/talent, yet not the capacity to learn it, so he/she obviously had to get it from somewhere. Mozart apparent could play the keyboard at age three, the first time he saw one. Where did that come from?

There was a National Geographic on just recently that was talking about autistic savants and how things work in the brain. One fellow was starved for oxygen early on and had some problems with his eyes not developing at all. He is severely autistic. The ocular part of the brain developed differently and he literally has "photographic" hearing. What's more, he was taught piano very young and was able to play music his hands we not capable of playing.

I know that sounds strange. But a musicians hands must stretch and develop the muscles and muscle memory to be able to play at any level of proficiency.

He can't really function beyond the level of a four year old. Doesn't know his address or phone number, yet can play piano at a level far beyond more accomplished professional pianists. They played a song for him that he had never heard before. No matter how complex the music, he can play it back note for note having listened to it once. Not only that but he can take the melody and make sophisticated changes to it playing around with harmony and rhythm to an astounding degree.

I think anyone can learn to play music for the most part if they apply themselves to the discipline but very very few will ever approach the level of ability this kid has.

That I image plays a very large role in how intelligent knowledgeable and wise a person is or can be.

 

[Unforgiven]

Another oddity to ponder from the same show is a man who enjoyed classic rock type music all his life but never played an instrument was on the phone during an electrical storm and was hit in the face by lightening. He luckily survived and as he recuperated, found a growing obsession of concerto music. Specifically piano concerto, which he soon began to study. He is an Orthopedic surgeon which was his chosen profession. You can imagine the workload.

In his off hours he would practice piano to obsession. He lost his wife over it due partly to neglect. He would get up as early as 4am, practice til he had to leave for work, return home after 12 hours or so to return to practice until he could not longer read the music on the sheet. Then sleep.

This moves into a few other directions like religion and near death experiences but what is interesting is the changes in his mind.

I found an entry in the Wiki about him.

Tony Cicoria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[china]

AnnaG

I've been thinking. (I know, that's a dangerous activity, right?) lol

The mind is a mechanism. It has no intelligence. The mind is a bio-computer. How can it have any intelligence? It has skill, but has no intelligence; it has a functional utility, but has no awareness. It is a robot; it works well but don't listen to it too much because then you lose your inner intelligence. Then it is as if you are asking a machine to guide you, lead you. You are asking a machine which has nothing original in it -cannot have. Not a single thought in the mind is ever original, it is always a repetition. Watch, observe , learn .

 

[china]

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