I don't much care for anyone in the bible but Christ, and he said nothing of life hereafter.
Jesus's contradiction? Miracles vs. Sacrifice.
- Thread starter Niflmir
- Start date
I don't much care for anyone in the bible but Christ, and he said nothing of life hereafter.
Personally, I think it's all mythology, so there's no reason to expect it to make any sense. The people who invented this stuff had agendas, and logic wasn't on it. Jesus is by no means the only person or god who supposedly died and rose from the dead, it's actually quite a common theme in folklore and mythology. Osiris, if my memory is correct, was reportedly dismembered and his body parts scattered, then his mother reassembled them and he rose again. And poor old Prometheus, chained to a rock, gets killed every day when an eagle comes to eat his liver, but somehow he miraculously recovers and lives to be mangled again tomorrow. Dip into James Frazier's The Golden Bough, you'll find all kinds of stuff about rising from death and people engaging in bizarre rituals. Go into any Christian church, odds are you'll find icons depicting a man being tortured to death and you can take part in a ritual of symbolic cannibalism involving him. That's one of the oldest ideas in human mythology, the notion of eating people to assist you in acquiring their virtues.
No doubt you are correct in your assessment as written.
But to understand the creation story as written, one needs to also understand the remedy offered by the creator as in a new creation.
I've looked into many such stories as like you mentioned searching to find something that would deny the whole story as written in the bible, but could find only what is described as gods fighting each other, and or some kind of seduction causing the birth of the earth etc.
But none of all of them give the dept of passion of compassion, of suffering, of joy and love, to the individual human soul, but only give what they themselves indulged themselves in and mankind being just an existence without importance.
Good verses evil are what make the individual be as like gods and what is essential to the worth of the soul.
Evil is ever present regardless of any belief, but good has to be imported in.
The world and all there is, is geared for the flesh, thus if left unchecked, the flesh would gorge itself without measure.
But good, which is imported resides not in the form of the flesh, but in the form of the spirit.
God, is that good which is spirit, and when good is exercised by anybody, then that spiritual form of good is represented as God being the originator.
So, whether one believes in God or not, if good is exercised, then God is in it!
My words, my thoughts.
Peace>>>AJ
You assume there *is* a creator, then further assume you understand something about his motives and purposes. I know of no reasons that even weakly suggest your assumptions, especially the first one, might be correct, and plenty of reasons that strongly suggest they're not. I'm not so arrogant as to definitively insist that there's no creator, no god (well, at least most days I'm not :smile
, that's just the conclusion I've come to after decades of studying the matter and I believe it to be correct, but I might be wrong. So might you of course, and you're absolutely unique among the believers I've encountered in being willing to admit that, for which I honour and respect you. Whatever your beliefs, you present yourself here as a kind and gentle and tolerant person, and the world surely, and sorely, needs more people like that. But the weight of evidence seems to me to be strongly on my side.There is some overlapping in the meaning of the words "god", "believer", "disbeliever" and so on.
Example: somebody wrote this in an Arabic book:
He said: "I wrangled with a German man about God's existence.
Then after some talk, the German said to me: 'What are you talking about? I am speaking about the god that came down from heaven and embodied in the body of Jesus who was crucified then resurrected and went up to heaven; to this one I don't believe.
He said: "I wrangled with a German man about God's existence.
Then after some talk, the German said to me: 'What are you talking about? I am speaking about the god that came down from heaven and embodied in the body of Jesus who was crucified then resurrected and went up to heaven; to this one I don't believe.
While I do believe in God; the Creator and the Almighty and Most Gracious.'
Then he said: 'Are you Mohammedan?'
The man said: 'Yes, I am; I do believe in God alone, and in Jesus only as His servant and apostle, but not as god nor as the son of God; I love Jesus, but I am not enthusiastic about him.'
The German said: 'I believe just as do you believe.' "
This is in the Quran 4: 172
لَّن يَسْتَنكِفَ الْمَسِيحُ أَن يَكُونَ عَبْداً لِّلّهِ وَلاَ الْمَلآئِكَةُ الْمُقَرَّبُونَ وَمَن يَسْتَنكِفْ عَنْ عِبَادَتِهِ وَيَسْتَكْبِرْ فَسَيَحْشُرُهُمْ إِلَيهِ جَمِيعًا
The explanation:
(The Christ will never disdain to be a servant of God, neither will the angels favored [by God.]
Whosoever disdains to serve Him, and waxes proud, He will gather them altogether to Him [in the space.] )
(The Christ will never disdain to be a servant of God, neither will the angels favored [by God.]
Whosoever disdains to serve Him, and waxes proud, He will gather them altogether to Him [in the space.] )
We’re both and including eanassir are right within our own beliefs.
I believe based on the whole of the bible, as you already know, that I believe in the existence of God and His representative Son as God redeemer of the whole world.
Which in my own right stand firm on my beliefs.
Now you Dexter, a well mannered and very polite individual with patience of a saint, are also within your own right to believe as you do and also stand firm on your beliefs.
Your belief is in the sciences which in itself requires firm stances on provability.
Enassir also is within his own right to believe as he does because he was born, raised and taught in the Muslim beliefs, therefore knows only to stand on that firmly.
The dilemma is how do we three come to an understanding which promotes brotherly love and fellowship and yet hold to our own beliefs without insisting that we all believe one way or the other.
Since we were all born to different families with different beliefs, race, color and location, not to mention time in history, we are at odds with each other because of beliefs.
In my view I can accept both of your beliefs and have fellowship with both of you without having to insist that my way is the only way.
But it is in any of our interests to discuss each others beliefs and perhaps have some influence in adjusting our own beliefs to whatever we wish to allow.
My God is not limited to any one belief, but invites all who would exercise faith in Him as an added bonus to the present day living.
Peace>>>AJ
I believe based on the whole of the bible, as you already know, that I believe in the existence of God and His representative Son as God redeemer of the whole world.
Which in my own right stand firm on my beliefs.
Now you Dexter, a well mannered and very polite individual with patience of a saint, are also within your own right to believe as you do and also stand firm on your beliefs.
Your belief is in the sciences which in itself requires firm stances on provability.
Enassir also is within his own right to believe as he does because he was born, raised and taught in the Muslim beliefs, therefore knows only to stand on that firmly.
The dilemma is how do we three come to an understanding which promotes brotherly love and fellowship and yet hold to our own beliefs without insisting that we all believe one way or the other.
Since we were all born to different families with different beliefs, race, color and location, not to mention time in history, we are at odds with each other because of beliefs.
In my view I can accept both of your beliefs and have fellowship with both of you without having to insist that my way is the only way.
But it is in any of our interests to discuss each others beliefs and perhaps have some influence in adjusting our own beliefs to whatever we wish to allow.
My God is not limited to any one belief, but invites all who would exercise faith in Him as an added bonus to the present day living.
Peace>>>AJ
That I think is the key question, and the final clause in it is the major flaw with religious belief in general. It generally insists that it has some absolute knowledge, as it has some direct pipeline to the divine. It's a small step from there to believing that it has both a right and a duty to interfere in the lives of others, because of course they're simply wrong in their beliefs and must be corrected, by persuasion if possible, force if necessary. We have to give up any claim to absolute knowledge, and allow for the possibility that we might be wrong.
Jesus is originally a god. This is because people define Jesus as a god. Jesus' action is to fulfill something for the atheist community. Jesus want to help people; this helping trait is considered good. If you believe in Jesus, Jesus is your god.
Jesus took the sins of man and transforms the sins into his power. This part is the part of Jesus benefiting sinners. Jesus did not benefit sinners. When Jesus is transforming the sins into his good powers, the sinners suffers. I remember a guy filled with more than 12 demons. When Jesus is freeing the guy from the demons, the guy yells a lot in pain. Jesus punishes the sinful people. This is also a good trait.
Jesus convert evil into a better form. This is also considered as good. Jesus then dies. His death symbolizes the death of sinful powers, Jesus' ambition for power and the beginning of another time. Jesus is a good guy. If you believe in Jesus, Jesus is a good god.
Niflmir: Jesus died on a cross. No one really knows how he feels. I don't think you should compare your family with Jesus. You don't know how Jesus suffer. I don't either. I doubt anyone really know how Jesus suffer. I only heard it is very awful.
Um. I don't know the details of your family. I guess certain gods will accept certain people. If Jesus accepts everyone, it means your family has sinned. I doubt it. I think it must be something to do with the change. The Anglican churches are facing difficulties. When the Anglican churches are separate, there is something wrong about their community. I heard about the churches opinion about religion. Most of the elite religious practices disappears. I feel like such a fool to actually look up to these Anglicans. One guy even decide to change religion. He was in the Globe and Mail.
If you doubt the church, switch to another church. A lot of times, you feel like you belong, sometimes you don't.
Your family died of good causes. It is not because they can't see the land; it is simply because the land is disappearing. I can't explain more about this. I agree with everyone on this. It's too risky to further elaborate.
Jesus took the sins of man and transforms the sins into his power. This part is the part of Jesus benefiting sinners. Jesus did not benefit sinners. When Jesus is transforming the sins into his good powers, the sinners suffers. I remember a guy filled with more than 12 demons. When Jesus is freeing the guy from the demons, the guy yells a lot in pain. Jesus punishes the sinful people. This is also a good trait.
Jesus convert evil into a better form. This is also considered as good. Jesus then dies. His death symbolizes the death of sinful powers, Jesus' ambition for power and the beginning of another time. Jesus is a good guy. If you believe in Jesus, Jesus is a good god.
Niflmir: Jesus died on a cross. No one really knows how he feels. I don't think you should compare your family with Jesus. You don't know how Jesus suffer. I don't either. I doubt anyone really know how Jesus suffer. I only heard it is very awful.
Um. I don't know the details of your family. I guess certain gods will accept certain people. If Jesus accepts everyone, it means your family has sinned. I doubt it. I think it must be something to do with the change. The Anglican churches are facing difficulties. When the Anglican churches are separate, there is something wrong about their community. I heard about the churches opinion about religion. Most of the elite religious practices disappears. I feel like such a fool to actually look up to these Anglicans. One guy even decide to change religion. He was in the Globe and Mail.
If you doubt the church, switch to another church. A lot of times, you feel like you belong, sometimes you don't.
Your family died of good causes. It is not because they can't see the land; it is simply because the land is disappearing. I can't explain more about this. I agree with everyone on this. It's too risky to further elaborate.
Niflmir: Your messages are like William Shakespeare's Hamlet published by the Folger Library. It is a very good read with a cup of coffee and some Christmas candies.
It is all very simple, that is for believer's they can understand that Jesus as God, could only take away the sin of the world.
Sin defined here in this case is the separation of mankind spiritual side from God resulting in death of mankind's soul in relation to God.
Jesus all He did was remove that obstacle of the spiritual death sentence from us, and delivered our souls to God.
Sins (Plural) are still accountable for our own miss deeds, accountable and payable here on earth, though maybe forgiven depending on the condition of one's heart.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I therefore, side with Gods benevolence towards all mankind, rather than mankind's discrimination siting as their own thoughts on what they think God is like.
I did not come to this conclusion without first searching many different views out first and getting what I believe answers from God via His Holy Spirit.
I do respect all religious and none religious views as my Gods benevolence is upon all souls.
Peace>>>AJ
Sin defined here in this case is the separation of mankind spiritual side from God resulting in death of mankind's soul in relation to God.
Jesus all He did was remove that obstacle of the spiritual death sentence from us, and delivered our souls to God.
Sins (Plural) are still accountable for our own miss deeds, accountable and payable here on earth, though maybe forgiven depending on the condition of one's heart.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I therefore, side with Gods benevolence towards all mankind, rather than mankind's discrimination siting as their own thoughts on what they think God is like.
I did not come to this conclusion without first searching many different views out first and getting what I believe answers from God via His Holy Spirit.
I do respect all religious and none religious views as my Gods benevolence is upon all souls.
Peace>>>AJ
"The dilemma is how do we three come to an understanding which promotes brotherly love and fellowship and yet hold to our own beliefs without insisting that we all believe one way or the other."
Humanity's had enough of respect for the contrived gibberish about gods. Your proposal seeks to validate an enormous lie and have it carry the same weight as the truth. The christian mission was and is to bring the word to all of mankind and thus smoother the innocent under the big lie and subjugate free thinking for all time.
Humanity's had enough of respect for the contrived gibberish about gods. Your proposal seeks to validate an enormous lie and have it carry the same weight as the truth. The christian mission was and is to bring the word to all of mankind and thus smoother the innocent under the big lie and subjugate free thinking for all time.
The best answer here to typingrandomstuff is what Jesus said in the Gospel according to Matthew 15
“6- … and you have made void the commandment of God for your tradition.
7-Hypocrites, well has Isaiah prophesied of you, saying:
8-This people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me:
9-And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.”
Well, actually I think the best answer would be some attempt at original thought and understanding based on what we now know of the way the world is, instead of citing ancient religious authorities from a pre-scientific and largely pre-literate culture. The Bible is a sufficiently large and complex document that you can, with a little creative interpretation, find support in it for just about any position you'd care to take, and a definitive answer to almost any question you'd care to ask. Arguments from authority aren't worth anything.
And then came our friend darkbeaver and dexter (who was not our friend ;-) ); both of them said -- the religion is the cause of evil, and let us desert the old texts and understand the world reality (according to their opinions of course).
However, this indeed is a strange way of thinking!
Is then the religion of God the reason for the affliction of the humanity, or is it the anti-religious programs?
Does God tell people to corrupt or is it the Devil (and the demon-worshippers) that do that?
The politicians, political parties, and the chiefs do exploit the charlatans among the religious leaders and the ignorant mob to stir in them the association with God, and strengthen in them the false traditions (that are not the words of God) and the false religion; in order to make transgression on people and stir the wars everywhere.
Therefore, if any man is truly sincere, let him ally with God alone and His true Commandments and His heavenly books including the last one the Glorious Quran which came to correct the past books.
And in spite that this is obviously true, most people will not admit it, including Muslims themselves; and as did Abu abd-Allah said before his death: "I see most people have now become like devils: they see the truth and work contrary to it."
This is in the Quran 3: 83
However, this indeed is a strange way of thinking!
Is then the religion of God the reason for the affliction of the humanity, or is it the anti-religious programs?
Does God tell people to corrupt or is it the Devil (and the demon-worshippers) that do that?
The politicians, political parties, and the chiefs do exploit the charlatans among the religious leaders and the ignorant mob to stir in them the association with God, and strengthen in them the false traditions (that are not the words of God) and the false religion; in order to make transgression on people and stir the wars everywhere.
Therefore, if any man is truly sincere, let him ally with God alone and His true Commandments and His heavenly books including the last one the Glorious Quran which came to correct the past books.
And in spite that this is obviously true, most people will not admit it, including Muslims themselves; and as did Abu abd-Allah said before his death: "I see most people have now become like devils: they see the truth and work contrary to it."
This is in the Quran 3: 83
أَفَغَيْرَ دِينِ اللّهِ يَبْغُونَ وَلَهُ أَسْلَمَ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا وَإِلَيْهِ يُرْجَعُونَ
The explanation:
(What [religion] other than God's religion is that these [Jews and Christians] crave,
when to Him is resigned whosoever is in the heavens and the earth [: the terrestrial planets including the earth], willingly or loath,
and to His [judgment] shall they return [after death]!?)
(What [religion] other than God's religion is that these [Jews and Christians] crave,
when to Him is resigned whosoever is in the heavens and the earth [: the terrestrial planets including the earth], willingly or loath,
and to His [judgment] shall they return [after death]!?)
Please, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO YOUR BELIEFS, tell me where you are going with this.
There has to be a simple explanation. If there is, kindly cite it.
Sincere Regards,
scratch
Eanassir: I don't have any questions. Notice the signs I used are exclamation marks. Exclamation marks are used when a person such as typingrandomstuff is...
a) excited
b) happy/surprised
c) expressing a general opinion.
Questions are expressed with a ? at the end of the sentence. I hope you can read. My skills are not very good, however I know what an exclamation mark do.
a) excited
b) happy/surprised
c) expressing a general opinion.
Questions are expressed with a ? at the end of the sentence. I hope you can read. My skills are not very good, however I know what an exclamation mark do.
But originally I belonged to the Shi'a sect, and I was enthusiastic about Imam Ali and his sons, then God guided me, after reading the books of Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly (and that took many years until I became convinced and went to him when he was alive, and nocked his door, he came out and met me and answered my questions - peace and mercy of God be on that kind-hearted and righteous man [this man whom people did not follow save only few of the few, while to the charlatans they follow them in thousands], and I opened my eyes and God saved me from that error of the enthusiasm that lead to the glorifying then associating these righteous men with God. So I followed the Quran and avoided the various sects.
This was just how the past nations of Jews and Christians deviated from the original religion of God; because by such enthusiasm about their prophets, religious men, Jesus and the saints, they reached to the same result: glorifying then associating their prophets, priests, Jesus and the saints with God: and making these persons as patrons instead of God as the only Patron.
Each sect of these Jews, Christians and Muslims think they are right, and God is pleased with them and they are preferred by God, and so by the intercession (Christians call it the Redemption) of their prophets, priests, saints and imams they will be saved and go to Paradise.
This intercession ( or redemption) is their flagrant lie; because no prophet (including Jesus, Moses and Mohammed) may intercede or mediate for the behalf of the associater, and he cannot do such intercession unless God permits him to do so, and then to intercede only and exclusively for the behalf of the monotheist who does not associate anyone with God. Even Jesus stated this that he will say to them "Away from me; I tell you the truth I don't know you"
[inspite of that they are related to him by name and speak in his name.]Therefore, if people want to be saved, then let all these sects and others believe:
- In God alone without associate, equal, son or daughters.
- In all the apostles of God including Moses, Jesus and Mohammed; and do not discriminate between them: so that they may believe in some and disbelieve in others. Jesus was truthful; he was sent by God like the rest of the apostles, but his mission was distorted into something worse than the idolatry to the extent that they considered him as God Himself and as son of God; and that he is the first and the end and everything be in him and for his sake.
Mohammed also was truthful; he was sent by God, and he refused all their proposals to make him their king, and did not stop until he broke up all the idols.
- In all the heavenly books including the Glorious Quran, the last one of the heavenly books that came to correct the distorted past books, and to give better commands. The ancient Arabs denied the revelation of the Quran, as will the late generation deny the interpretation of the Quran which give a time extension to the Quran: so that as if a new revelation will come; because such interpretation is an inspiration and reveltaion (by Jesus Christ and another angel) to the interpreter.
Last edited: