Jesus's contradiction? Miracles vs. Sacrifice.

[karrie]

Another thing that makes me curious Niflmir.

If Christ was merely tapping into God's higher power, then, how many of His actions were His own, and how many were steered? Plenty of people, every day, think they are making decisions out of their own free will, not realizing that heredity, environment, and instinct are guiding their choices. How much of Christ's journey would have been guided similarily by God, with Christ not making fully conscious choices in the matter?

 

[Niflmir]

so karrie refocuses us back to the actual topic.

From a "literal" Biblical perspective, for the sake of focusing on what we all know is common Christian understanding of the Bible, here goes...again this is not my view...
The point of this Half Son of God Half Son of Man,(plz note respect with caps)was to die for our sins and suffer in a humanly way as massivley as possible. The fact He held on to not miraclizing the pain away was a sign of God's love for the human race.......yikes i might just have helped the evangelicals......

As for fear of death, not cause of my mental health i might add, I do not fear death.
I don't...I don't know, maybe cause I still have this reincarnation life goes on forever deal on the hard drive pulsing away .....Maybe if i was a true atheist I would fear death....

well maybe not fear it so much as due to clinging onto all the things I have here and the loss of those things and people is a lil much to handle....

Hey question to die hard atheists...can you be one if you and believe in reincarnation.

It is the literal perspective that my argument is meant to dig into. If any one of us on our death bed had the powers of a god then we would use them. If Jesus had those powers and did not use them, he was at best pretending to be human. The pain a trifling thing that he could have inflicted upon himself many times worse over. That is the very essence of the dichotomy, a god cannot die a human death without allowing it. We do not allow cancer to kill us, though we know it is coming, it overtakes us as we seek to fight it. Dying by crucifixion is a slow process. Your arms pull on your rib cage and crush your lungs, you pull yourself up by the spikes in your hands so that you can breath air. Your back drags up the roughly hewn wood sending splinters deep into your skin. Each breath you take is painful and deliberate, and can only be done while conscious. All the people I know would desperately take any means to escape that, that is why torture is so good at getting false confessions. Jesus on the cross could not have been an avatar if that death was not to be a suicide.

As for fearing death, no one fears death like they fear a madman with a knife. But consider hopping on a plane to Amsterdam to get a lethal injection. Consider taking your friends and family with you. If you don't get a slightly queer feeling from that, the feeling of unfinished business and laughs not had, if you don't feel that then I assume you didn't think about it enough. <snicker>

As for reincarnation, if you believe in some physical mechanism that gives rise to consciousness, and you believe in conservation of energy. Then you can infer that much like the atoms of your body will become something else, so too will the elements of your mind. But your memories will be gone, there will no longer be an I.

 

[Niflmir]

Another thing that makes me curious Niflmir.

If Christ was merely tapping into God's higher power, then, how many of His actions were His own, and how many were steered? Plenty of people, every day, think they are making decisions out of their own free will, not realizing that heredity, environment, and instinct are guiding their choices. How much of Christ's journey would have been guided similarily by God, with Christ not making fully conscious choices in the matter?

True enough, but I think few Christians would really want to accept the idea that Jesus was less than God. God in the Flesh is how they usually say. A muslim would accept that God acted through Jesus, but I always felt Christians felt more than that. At the end of the day if people simply thought of Jesus as a prophet, I would be happy with that. If you believe that, then I think that is fantastic. I wonder only if the church believes that.

 

[karrie]

True enough, but I think few Christians would really want to accept the idea that Jesus was less than God. God in the Flesh is how they usually say. A muslim would accept that God acted through Jesus, but I always felt Christians felt more than that. At the end of the day if people simply thought of Jesus as a prophet, I would be happy with that. If you believe that, then I think that is fantastic. I wonder only if the church believes that.

I believe Jesus was more than a prophet. I believe Jesus was the Son of God, a vessel for His power. But, in order to truly fulfill His role, and suffer for humanity, that power had to be absent during his crucifixion.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

lot to think about before replying at this point.....

can I toss into the mix karrie, that it is becoming more and more historically popular the Jesus was elevated to God status by Emperor Constantine

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

lot to think about before replying at this point.....

can I toss into the mix karrie, that it is becoming more and more historically popular the Jesus was elevated to God status by Emperor Constantine

Ya know I don't mean to stomp on your belief system karrie...at best it's just stuff that has come to light that makes me think more....

 

[karrie]

Doc, you really don't need to worry about tromping on my belief system. I'm a spiritual person, still seeking the answers. The only time I quit a conversation, is when condescending people try to talk me out of my spirituality. My 'religion' is wide open for debate and questions and (in my opinion, though not the church's), interpretation.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Reincarnation has many views. For years I resorted to a Christian concept of the soul mixed with the idea of it going from one body to another, not unlike the created Atman(soul) in Hindu transmigration theories.

I'm not a Buddhist presently although some of the theroies are sort off part of me.

The Buddhist view is more shall we say in line with physics...which you are so this should be real interesting......

Unlike the created permanent soul there is nothing like that in Buddhism.
We are all basically mind. When we, our bodies, this I you refered to, dies, that mind becomes part of what it actually always is. Part of everything, mind.No change there.


What does continue if you will:
The actions that have been created by lets say dave and their causual effects are all that are left of dave .Their future manifestation due to an unbelievable eternity of the same process will determine the new dave. that could take any life form .

So It's kinda hard to see but there is no real "I". Just this ongoing set of energies that somehow come together in a human being or animal, becoming sort of davish in whatever form it becomes.

really reaching here>It is destined(??) from causes in the past. But is able to create it's own destiny (??)

Memory would imply something permanent that exists after death that could hold onto such a thing.

sorry peeps i ain't no dali Lama...I think I just pointed to something though....lol....

*comfortably loses all credability*
dave

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Doc, you really don't need to worry about tromping on my belief system. I'm a spiritual person, still seeking the answers. The only time I quit a conversation, is when condescending people try to talk me out of my spirituality. My 'religion' is wide open for debate and questions and (in my opinion, though not the church's), interpretation.

thanks, just well you know we don't know each other , i'm enjoying this convo, Can see you have your own thoughts , ramble ramble,,,,I step on toes without knowing it online sometimes, hate when i do that....Try to pride myself on actually respecting others beliefs.....
ok gotcha!
ta
d

 

[triedit]

I do believe in miracles. Have seen them first hand. I do believe in some greater good, even if it is reduced to just universal consciousness.

I do believe that Jesus lived and Im willing to believe he died for the sins of others. I believe he did so because he loved mankind and believed his suffering would cause them all to be saved. I believe such a love exists where someone would willingly endure what he is said to endure for the sake of others. I truly believe in that sort of love and commitment.

I stop short of believing Jesus was more than any other man though. I don't believe he was special from the beginning in any sort of way except that he had the capacity for this extrodinary love. Those with that love, in my opinion, are miracles. I praise him for his sacrifice but I would (and do) also praise all those with that sort of uncommon love; the cop who gets shot trying to capture a criminal, the firefighter who gives his life to save a child from a burning building, the folks who donate thier organs while still living, etc.

A recent example of this...A good friend has a son who just turned 15. His grandmother gave him $100 for his birthday. This boy, unprompted by any other person, took half his money and bought a good pair of shoes for a friend who had only worn out ones. For me, this boy is equal to Jesus.

 

[Niflmir]

Unlike the created permanent soul there is nothing like that in Buddhism.
We are all basically mind. When we, our bodies, this I you refered to, dies, that mind becomes part of what it actually always is. Part of everything, mind.No change there.

Keep in mind that Buddhism is formed from Hinduism, but buddhists believe that they have found the way to escape the cycle of Karma. They do in fact have a notion of a permanent soul, although much like Christianity it depends which sect you talk to.

I do believe in miracles. Have seen them first hand. I do believe in some greater good, even if it is reduced to just universal consciousness.

Are you familiar with the Humean concept of a miracle? Basically any rational person will find the idea that they are hallucinating more likely than the violation of a law of nature. Anything short of a violation of a law of nature is a mere coincidence. Of course Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow... so, what can I say?

 

[talloola]

so karrie refocuses us back to the actual topic.


Hey question to die hard atheists...can you be one if you and believe in reincarnation.

I don't believe in reincarnation at all.

 

[Pangloss]

According to the faithful (a credulous lot, I'll grant you) Jesus died for our sins. Except, according to the faithful (not a critical lot, I'll grant you), Jesus went on to eternal life on the throne beside the Big Guy.

So he didn't die, except he died for our sins, by not dying, when he died on the cross, where he didn't die.

Man am I ever confused.

Pangloss

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Keep in mind that Buddhism is formed from Hinduism, but buddhists believe that they have found the way to escape the cycle of Karma. They do in fact have a notion of a permanent soul, although much like Christianity it depends which sect you talk to.



Are you familiar with the Humean concept of a miracle? Basically any rational person will find the idea that they are hallucinating more likely than the violation of a law of nature. Anything short of a violation of a law of nature is a mere coincidence. Of course Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow... so, what can I say?

Buddha was born into a strict Vedic culture. He definatly did not discuss God the creator although there are parrables about Him discussing Vedic Gods.
From a Buddhist perspective the Gods are born and die. Say that to a Hindu and watch their face twitch.

I believe modern day Hinduism was shaped by the Buddha's teachings. In the 13th century the Hindu's claimed Buddha their own by insisting He was an emmanation of Lord Vishnu. Totally political, and inane from a Buddhist point of view. I have Hindu friends and don't even come close to discussing this point for the damage it would cause our friendship.....funny thing religion.



"Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow", not such a bad way to live for you would be forced to live each day to it's fullest and take nothing for granted.

By the way ,I think this is my sanity thread.
Dave

 

[Unforgiven]

According to the faithful (a credulous lot, I'll grant you) Jesus died for our sins. Except, according to the faithful (not a critical lot, I'll grant you), Jesus went on to eternal life on the throne beside the Big Guy.

So he didn't die, except he died for our sins, by not dying, when he died on the cross, where he didn't die.

Man am I ever confused.

Pangloss

Crystal man crystal.

 

[eanassir]

Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins.

Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified. Pilate set him free and released him from prison, and killed someone else who was a murderer [it may be that was Barabbas.] The disciples saw Jesus three days after the event; some of them doubted, and some thought he was a ghost, and he said to them: I am alive, touch me and give me some food, and he ate some fish and honey that they gave to him.
This is mentioned in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 22 and 23.

See this also at our website:​

Their Stand Against the Christ
A Call to Christians

"Pilate promised them to crucify him, but he said within himself: I cannot bear the burden of the sin of killing this [innocent] man; instead, I will release him and he should go out of this city and disappear from the community, and if they ask me about him I shall say to them: I have crucified and buried him. Then he called Jesus Christ, and said to him: I don’t find any cause of death in you, [neither did Herodus find]; so I shall release you, and you should go out of this city to Syria to hide there from them, and if they ask me about you, I shall tell them that I have crucified and buried him. Then he released him and the Christ hid from them. His disciples saw him three days later, and they feared and thought that he was a ghost, but he spoke to them and said: “I am alive as you see, and I am not a ghost as you think. Have you bread?” They gave him bread and fish and he took and ate before them. Then he traveled to Syria and stayed there on the Quasseon Mountain where he hid himself from the Jews. A period of time later, he died and was buried in that high land, while his spirit ascended to heaven to the Paradises."

This is also in the Quran 4: 157​

و ما قَتَلُوهُ وما صَلَبُوهُ و لكنْ شُبِّهَ لَهم و إنّ الّذينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فيهِ لَفي شكٍّ مِنهُ ما لهم بهِ مِنْ عِلمٍ إلاّ اتّباعَ الظنِّ و ما قَتَلُوهُ يَقيناً . بلْ رَفعَهُ اللهُ إليهِ و كانَ اللهُ عزيزاً حكيماً​

The explanation: (They did not slay him, nor crucified him, but a similitude was made for them, and those who differ therein are full of doubt thereof, with no [certain] knowledge, but only conjecture to follow; they slew him not for certain.
But God raised him up to His [neighborhood]; God is All-Mighty, All-Wise.)

The apostle is a savior of those that follow him according his calling them to God alone and to abandon the idolatry and the association of equals or peers with God. He works for the sake of God that sent him and to fulfill the will of his Lord. His suffering is in the way of God; he cannot save the atheist or the associater or the disbeliever.
​

• The idea of the sacrifice and the suffering; they adapted it from Krishna the Indian. ​
• And the idea of the "son of God"; they adapted it from the ancient Greek who said their kings were the sons of gods. Jesus called himself the "son of man" in more than seventy sites in the Gospel; but only a possessed or a mad man called him son of God.​

eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[MHz]

Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins. Now, it must be a very real death to have any meaning. If his suffering is an act, then he is merely mocking our condition or at the very least Jesus's crucifixion would be rendered meaningless: he could have simply told us in sincerity that he was going to absolve us. If the death was an act than it was not a sacrifice and the son of god was not sacrificed for the sins of man, more like a pin prick: the nuisance of taking on an avatar. Simply put, Jesus must die a real, human death.

It wasn't an act, I'm not quite sure of all the little details of the 'why' but it probably caught Satan off-guard, even though he knew it was already written that it would happen.

Yet, to die a human death, you must fear the loss of life. Sure there are some people that go running to their death for reasons of glory but a reasonable person would deem that a sort of suicide. Furthermore, none of us really has the certainty of "a life everlasting" or of reincarnation, there could be nothing but a grave, or worse: eternal damnation. Furthermore, no reasonable person sees any meaning in death. Although "the meaning of life" is nebulous at best, helping the weak, spending time with family and friends, taking pride in our creations, and seeing the next sunset are all things that give us meaning of sorts. Death, it serves no immediate purpose to look forward to and life will always flee from death so long as it has the strength.

In the garden before He was taken by the guards He was sweating blood, that would seem to me that He was more than a little anxious about what He knew was coming. These verses would also indicate some concern.
M't:26:38:
Then saith he unto them,
My soul is exceeding sorrowful,
even unto death:
tarry ye here,
and watch with me.
M't:26:39:
And he went a little further,
and fell on his face,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if it be possible,
let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will,
but as thou wilt.

M't:26:42:
He went away again the second time,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if this cup may not pass away from me,
except I drink it,
thy will be done.

M't:26:44:
And he left them,
and went away again,
and prayed the third time,
saying the same words.

The supposed miracles that Jesus performed: walking on water, turning water to wine and bread to fish, quelling a storm, making a fig tree die, curing the sick, and banishing demons all point towards Jesus being deific. Yet in his godliness, he could take himself down from the cross. He could smite those who would crucify him like the people of Soddom and Gemorra. Jesus has the certainty of a life everlasting by verily knowing that he is the son of God and therefore immortal. Also being God, Jesus would know that his death would serve the greatest purpose of all: the absolution of sin in humankind.

He couldn't do that and still be obedient to the prophecies God had already given. That is why God sent Him instead of 'just another Prophet', perfect obedience and Christ is the only one who ever has been perfect in that respect. By sending Him it was a shoe-in that the prophecies would be fulfilled to the letter.

So to me, there is an apparent conflict between Jesus being a God on Earth, and Jesus dying a human death. Since with a snap of his fingers he could have, as he was alleged to have done before, performed a miracle, his death was at best a suicide, a mock sacrifice.

Christ was sent to earth by God, He didn't come with full power from God. It was only after the cross that He could baptize people with the Holy Spirit, He never did that before the cross. By His own blood sacrifice He became the High Priest to all of mankind. That death allowed for a change in how could be called His people and a change in Law.
Heb:7:12: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

To me, an atheist, that is a simple and manifest conflict. With the power to bend the laws of physics I would never die a real death. I would have to choose the hour of my own death. With the knowledge of a greater life waiting for me through my own death, I would simply be en par with a very unpleasant operation. Only by not having these powers at my disposal do I die a human death. Thus I pose the dichotomy: either Jesus was God on Earth, or he died a human death, not both.

If you were sent on a mission that had certain specific things that were to be accomplished, even in a certain order, and you changed anything would that mission be a success or a failure?
If Jesus had the full authority from God to do all that He 'wished' to do Satan would have been toasted right then and there. What Christ did have permission to do was to include those who were not yet included in salvation. Which He did, Jews and Gentiles could now be called God's people.

 

[look3467]

Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins. Now, it must be a very real death to have any meaning. If his suffering is an act, then he is merely mocking our condition or at the very least Jesus's crucifixion would be rendered meaningless: he could have simply told us in sincerity that he was going to absolve us. If the death was an act than it was not a sacrifice and the son of god was not sacrificed for the sins of man, more like a pin prick: the nuisance of taking on an avatar. Simply put, Jesus must die a real, human death.>>>Niflmir

Not understanding the death and sacrifice of Jesus is the reason for your statement.

Humanity was created with a condition to where only the creator could remove it.

That condition was spiritual death.

The only way possible for mankind to not die spiritually, it must meet the requirements for spiritual life.

Being that mankind "was" created, it could of its own accord do absolutely nothing to recreate its self, or should I rather say, be born again, but this time for life instead of unto death.

Jesus then had the power over those conditions by which mankind had not as a whole had which, led mankind to death spiritually.

Being that God, the creator, was the only one to overcome its own requirements for being in the flesh, becomes flesh Him self as Jesus.

But must meet all of His own conditions, pay the price of spiritual death and absolve all mankind from that condition.

Yes, He hat the power to step down from the cross, but if He would of, then He would have been useless to us, for He alone would have been saved, and we still be death spiritually.

He therefore had to consume all sin, by consuming meaning, to take all sin of mankind upon Himself, accept the spiritual death clause, and die the worlds greatest *****, because He loved the world, meaning His creation so much that He gave Himself for it in our stead.

Again, you or I nor any great person apart from God himself, (Jesus) could save mankind from eternal death, for it was something that we just had no control over.

Now, perhaps, I say perhaps if my explanation would maybe make a little dent in your understanding of why Jesus not act as God in the flesh, then perhaps there is still hope.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[franc]

Christ never said his death would atone for the sins of the world. That was an invention of Paul.

 

[look3467]

Christ never said his death would atone for the sins of the world. That was an invention of Paul.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

We have the name "Adam" representing the whole of mankind.
The first man "Adam" was made flesh, the flesh dies along with the spirit.
The second man Adam was made a quickening spirit, mean God come in the flesh, the flesh yet dies, but this time not the spirit.

So as a gift of God for all mankind, the second "Adams" life is given to all mankind to for salvation of the soul.

If you can not see that, then you can not believe that Jesus died for your soul so that you may gain entrance to Heaven for all eternity.

Peace>>>AJ