Jesus's contradiction? Miracles vs. Sacrifice.

Dexter Sinister · Jul 28, 2008

eanassir said:
...the last one the Glorious Quran which came to correct the past books.

And in spite that this is obviously true, most people will not admit it, including Muslims themselves; and as did Abu abd-Allah said before his death: "I see most people have now become like devils: they see the truth and work contrary to it."

This is in the Quran 3: 83

That is where you consistently go wrong. It is not at all obviously true, the Quran is simply one of many texts that claim internally to be true. Moreover, you cannot legitimately cite the Quran in support of its own authority, that's not a logically valid argument, it's a tautology and begs the question. You're claiming in effect that the book is correct because it claims to be correct. That's no different from me claiming that everything I've ever posted is obviously true because everything I've ever posted is obviously true. How long will it take before you suggest we should destroy all books but the Quran, with the possible exception of certain commentaries on it? That certainly seems to be the direction you're going: if they're consistent with the Quran, they're superfluous, and if they're not, they're heretical. But actually, if that commentary of Al-Hilly's you keep referring us to is any indication, a book that's consistent with the Quran can be almost entirely wrong.

eanassir · Jul 29, 2008

Dexter Sinister said:
That is where you consistently go wrong. It is not at all obviously true, the Quran is simply one of many texts that claim internally to be true. Moreover, you cannot legitimately cite the Quran in support of its own authority, that's not a logically valid argument, it's a tautology and begs the question. You're claiming in effect that the book is correct because it claims to be correct. That's no different from me claiming that everything I've ever posted is obviously true because everything I've ever posted is obviously true. How long will it take before you suggest we should destroy all books but the Quran, with the possible exception of certain commentaries on it? That certainly seems to be the direction you're going: if they're consistent with the Quran, they're superfluous, and if they're not, they're heretical. But actually, if that commentary of Al-Hilly's you keep referring us to is any indication, a book that's consistent with the Quran can be almost entirely wrong.

It will be sufficient to tell any man - for one time only - concerning the Glorious Quran, and then the evidence will be against him if he does not believe; that is because he has been warned by the Quran of God. Then he cannot later on deny this fact, that he became aware of the word of God.

Therefore, I am not trying to convince you, but merely to tell the readers who read your fallacies which you give the appearance of the truth, by the way of your good English expression.

The evidence is speaking about itself; if I read your words, I shall know a lot about you; and if you read my words, you too will know a lot about me. Therefore, when one reads the parables of Jesus and their deep implication he will discover that this man was sent by God; and if man reads the Quran, he will know that this is the word of God, to which many people have responded and converted.

Example: to this aya 24: 40 and its translated meaning in English, a doctor in the British Navy reacted and converted many years ago, while thousands and millions had read the same aya and may be the translation of its meaning in different languages, but were not influenced in the same way.

This is in the Quran 24: 40

أَوْ كَظُلُمَاتٍ فِي بَحْرٍ لُّجِّيٍّ يَغْشَاهُ مَوْجٌ مِّن فَوْقِهِ مَوْجٌ مِّن فَوْقِهِ سَحَابٌ ظُلُمَاتٌ بَعْضُهَا فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ إِذَا أَخْرَجَ يَدَهُ لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا وَمَن لَّمْ يَجْعَلِ اللَّهُ لَهُ نُورًا فَمَا لَهُ مِن نُّورٍ

The explanation:
(Or [the parable for the idolater and associater and his work in this World is]

as depths of darkness on a deep sea covered by billows [of water], above which are billows [of air], above which are clouds; [and the time was at night; so it was overwhelming darkness:]

layers of darkness piled one upon another [: the darkness of the night, the darkness of the cloud and the darkness of the sea];
when he puts forth his hand, he almost cannot see it [because of the extreme darkness].

[This associater and idolater was embarking on a ship which is sailing on the sea; then his luggage or food fell in the sea; will he find it?
No, he will not find anything of it: because if it is heavy, it will go to the bottom of the sea;
while if the luggage and food is light, the waves of the sea will take it away, and he will loose his luggage and food {that he prepared for the voyage};
so similarly the work and deeds of the associater will go away and he will not be rewarded for any of his work and deeds, and he will not find any of that in the next life of the Hereafter.]

And to whomsoever God assigns no light [: a guide to guide him], no light has he [i.e. he will have no guide to guide him to the way of the truth]

[Therefore, man has to ask God to guide him, and say:

"My Lord, if I am on a correct way, then affirm me on it;
but if I am in error, then guide my heart to the way of the truth, and made clear, for me the reason for Your guidance, and let me succeed in deserving Your good pleasure; You are All-Able to do whatever You please."]

[Then, God will answer his prayer, but on condition that this man is kind-hearted, is merciful to the poor and needy, is not a wrong-doer, neither is he a hypocrite nor a miser or niggard; because God dislikes the hypocrites, the wrong-doers and the miser, and He does not guide them] )
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This doctor saw many tempests and storms in the sea; so he asked: had Mohammed gone in any voyage by the sea? They told him: he never went in any voyage on sea; he merely went in two journeys by land to Syria. So he said: Such description can only come from one who knows the sea very well; therefore this Quran was not invented by Mohammed; it is obviously from God Almighty.

But the disbeliever may not admit and believe unless he is guided or else he will not.

eanassir
http://universeandquran.site.io
http://man-after-death.site.io
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com

eanassir · Jul 29, 2008

scratch said:
Please, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO YOUR BELIEFS, tell me where you are going with this.
There has to be a simple explanation. If there is, kindly cite it.
Sincere Regards,
scratch

No one is obliged to accept or refuse any word; but some have said many words against Muslims and the Islam, while "with all your respect to the belief" you did not shout to them!

To answer you, I say:

I shall be like the sower in the parable of Jesus in the Gospel, according to Matthew 13: 3-9

{ And he spoke many things to them in parables, saying,
"Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed,

some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
· And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
· But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who has ears to hear, let him hear."}

eanassir
http://universeandquran.site.io
http://man-after-death.site.io
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com

Dexter Sinister · Jul 30, 2008

eanassir said:
Therefore, I am not trying to convince you, but merely to tell the readers who read your fallacies which you give the appearance of the truth, by the way of your good English expression.

After all the arguments from authority, arguments from ignorance, and faulty reasoning from easily falsifiable premises you've presented here at CC, YOU accuse ME of committing fallacies?

Show me where I've committed a fallacy, cite the post, and name the fallacy.

eanassir · Jul 30, 2008

Dexter Sinister said:
After all the arguments from authority, arguments from ignorance, and faulty reasoning from easily falsifiable premises you've presented here at CC, YOU accuse ME of committing fallacies?

Show me where I've committed a fallacy, cite the post, and name the fallacy.

YOU with all your atheism and what you call skepticism is double-fold wrong, and the calamity is that YOU see yourself correct, cheating yourself that you are following the way of science.

This is in the Quran 34: 24

قُلْ مَن يَرْزُقُكُم مِّنَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ قُلِ اللَّهُ وَإِنَّا أَوْ إِيَّاكُمْ لَعَلَى هُدًى أَوْ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

The explanation:

(Say [to them]: "Who provides [for] you from the [gaseous] heavens [with the rain] and the earth [with the plant and the fruit]?" Say: "God [it is Who provides for you], and you will see [tomorrow] whether I or you are on guidance or in obvious error.")

The first and major one of your fallacies is your denial of God – be glorified – Whom none denies unless he is non-sense, Whose existence is demonstrable in every electron revolving around the atom and in every planet revolving around the sun, and in every pair of the plant and animal, and in every marvelous signs in the earth and the universe. And how can any intelligent man think that things come to existence spontaneously without any Creator, and the results comes without the cause?

The second one of your fallacies and non-sense is your denial of the next life or the afterlife, when it is evident that you and everyone else will die, as did all the generations die. This on the pretext that science has not proven it; is then things, that have not proven by science, not existent, or the science itself is preliminary and cannot find everything?
Although the science is not owned by the atheist, but it is for all, to benefit from it. And the science is to be enhanced and exploited for the advantage of man.

The third of your fallacies is your denial of the Glorious Quran, and claiming it is trivial after you read some translations of its meaning, while the Quran has perplexed the minds of thinkers and men that study it to investigate its jewels and marvelous signs, and the ayat that it includes have many scientific implications. And I can mention many advantages of the Quran, but you are not anxious to be acquainted to it.

Another one of your non-sense uttering is that you – at the start, if you remember, said: no water on Mars, and insisted on this claiming that it is CO2 snow; then water discovered, so you didn't admit that you were wrong, but only ignored your first words, and said there is no flowing water, and there is no life there other than may be some bacteria, and there is no intelligent life there; while this is not any scientific attitude, but only you want to deny as such.

You have to say: they have not yet discovered intelligent life there; but you cannot say there isn't any intelligent life there, and you insist on that;
and you can say they have not yet discovered flowing water, but you cannot say there isn't any water in liquid form.

Then when they will discover such living beings and water there on Mars, you then will forget all the words – which you now are stating as true and as rules. And will not say: I was wrong about that.

So these are some of your fallacies.
And if anyone has indeed some scientific attitude, he cannot insist and refuse, but will anticipate, and at least he can say: It may be there is liquid water and it may be there is life but it has not yet been discovered.

You have taken this attitude: the denial and antagonism of God and the Quran, and this has lead you to refuse and dislike any idea of the possibility of the existence of liquid water, plant, animal, and human beings (may be other races: like a winged race or green or blue or some other variations …etc in addition to our black, yellow, red and white races.)

eanassir
http://universeandquran.site.io

L Gilbert · Jul 30, 2008

Dex, you are wasting your time. Eanassir has pinhole vision. He can ONLY see what he thinks is logic, what he thinks is science, etc. It seems extremely unlikely that he would ever consider a point of view other than his own to be of any importance or have any validity.
IOW, if he thinks water is made from Argon, Kryptonite, and faerie dust, no amount of fact, reality, etc. will persuade him otherwise.

talloola · Jul 30, 2008

There is always a possibility of 'life' anywhere in the universe, not 'angels' or 'fairies' or
'souls' flying around, (all invisible of course, isn't it 'funny' how all of those 'belief' things
never appear, hmmm).

I will blend in with my earth life, and my earth brothers and sisters, who love this earth as
I do. I will not allow people such as 'eanassir' to bribe me with these fantasy stories and
some book that is his 'boss'.
I can think very clearly, and see the reality of who I am and what I want. I would be a
weak sniffling slave if I allowed that sort of silliness to rule my life.

I see him and others like him,, like 'he' would see the devil, as someone dangerous and someone
who is trying to make me a slave, as he is.

We humans are a very powerful species, our brains are a wonderful source of power for
us to figure out how to care for ourselves and live our lives on this earth, which is our true
home, in life and in death, we will return to the earth, from where we came, and stay there.
We really don't require some invisible fantasy to bother us, and tell us how to survive,
and look after ourselves. Much of the awful side of our life on this earth is 'directly caused' by religious competition, as there are so many of them, each believing something different, no consistency in religion at all, they fight and kill each other, all in the name of
their own 'so called' god. From my standpoint, as a true person of the earth, they are
interferring with our 'balance' and constantly trying to throw us into some turmoil, and
urging us to do things which, to a logical, earthly mind, seems 'ludicrous.
We are happy here, and we don't need that rubbish, our own minds can discover many powerful and wonderful ways to improve and care for ourselves.

Many churches, on the other hand, I have much admiration for, as they do help others,
and I separate, in my thoughts, what they religiously believe, from their actual ability
and willingness to do good for others, we should all do that for each other, but we can
do that without religion, it is easy to love one another, it is natural and earthly, and
we don't need some 'invisible' source, to guide us, we can do that for ourselves.

Dexter Sinister · Jul 30, 2008

eanassir said:
So these are some of your fallacies.

No they're not. Most of those are just differences of opinion. You don't even know what a fallacy is.

eanassir · Jul 30, 2008

Dexter Sinister said:
No they're not. Most of those are just differences of opinion. You don't even know what a fallacy is.

You are fond of wrangling and disputing.

This is in the Quran 18: 54

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِي هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ وَكَانَ الْإِنسَانُ أَكْثَرَ شَيْءٍ جَدَلًا

The explanation:
(And We have surely displayed for people in this Quran all kinds of parables)
; in order that people may receive admonition and believe; and yet they became obstinate, waxed proud and wrangled;

[and] man is more than anything contentious.) i.e. he wrangles too much.

eanassir · Jul 31, 2008

This has been a repeated reply.

eanassir · Jul 31, 2008

Some have said bad words about the Glorious Quran, and said that the Quran is only simple and trivial book (according to their blasphemous words).

If so then what is the meaning of the word الْكَلاَلَةِ in the aya 4: 176 which concerns the distribution of the wealth of the deceased?

يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

The following is the translation of the meaning of the aya 4: 175 according to A J Arberry:

175 They will ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: 'God pronounces to you concerning the indirect heirs.

If a man perishes having no children, but he has a sister, she shall receive a half of what he leaves, and he is her heir if she has no children.

If there be two sisters, they shall receive two-thirds of what he leaves; if there be brothers and sisters, the male shall receive the portion of two females.

God makes clear to you, lest you go astray; God has knowledge of everything.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I shall not give now the interpretation of Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly; because it includes the solution.

Here Arberry did not know the true meaning of the word; because he referred to some interpretations and he chose what he thought more near to the meaning; but he did not realize the meaning.

This word is a challenge to all Jews, Christians and Muslims and others in case they say that Mohammed had invented the Quran;

while Mohammed himself did not know the meaning of many ayat of the Quran and he said: "I don't know; God is All-Knowing about its meaning; I heard it from the angel as such."

And all the interpreters do not know its meaning, and they give many possibilities.

And what is the meaning of this word Al-Kalala الْكَلاَلَةِ This does not concern whether man is not a Muslim; because they have spoken many bad words concerning the Glorious Quran; accusing it of being bad, meaningless and trivial …etc.

Moreover, there is a left or spared share; to whom it will be given?

" If a man perishes having no children, but he has a sister, she shall receive a half of what he leaves" – to whom will the other half given?

" If there be two sisters, they shall receive two-thirds of what he leaves" – to whom the other third given?

L Gilbert · Jul 31, 2008

eanassir said:
You are fond of wrangling and disputing.

This is in the Quran 18: 54

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِي هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ وَكَانَ الْإِنسَانُ أَكْثَرَ شَيْءٍ جَدَلًا

The explanation:
(And We have surely displayed for people in this Quran all kinds of parables)
; in order that people may receive admonition and believe; and yet they became obstinate, waxed proud and wrangled;

[and] man is more than anything contentious.) i.e. he wrangles too much.

And only a fool believes stuff from a book without question. I would rather wrangle than be a fool and gullibly believe in fantasies.

Dexter Sinister · Jul 31, 2008

eanassir said:
You are fond of wrangling and disputing.

This is in the Quran 18: 54

It's in the Quran that I'm fond of wrangling and disputing? The Prophet knew I was coming, did he? Well, he's wrong. I'm not fond of wrangling, but I'll usually dispute BS when I see it. What you called my fallacies are actually heresies, to which I freely admit: there's no good evidence your god exists and I don't believe he does, there is no good evidence there's a next life and I don't believe there is, and your Glorious Quran is dull, badly written, poorly organized, repetitious, and frequently wrong (yes, I've read it, in several translations). I don't think I ever said there's no water on Mars, more likely I said there's no liquid water on Mars anymore, but if I did, you're right, I shouldn't have said there's no water on Mars, and I knew better at the time. But that's hardly a fallacy. A fallacy is an error in reasoning that leads to a demonstrably false or unjustified conclusion. You can find lists of them, with examples, in dozens of places on the Internet. I don't think I've committed one in disputing with you, so I'll challenge you again: show me.

eanassir · Jul 31, 2008