Jesus never existed.

[L Gilbert]

Obviously a rocking chair

Well, what's obvious to you is erroneous. It doesn't rock. Again, so much for your version of reasoning.

 

[MHz]

I'm not talking about time. What initiated energies and matter in the first place? Or was it here already without having an origin? You say that your god poofed it all. The timeline is irrelevant. I say the universe just was, is, and always has been and it is without human characteristics (thought, emotion, etc).

It seems like you are the one who is poofing things, 'it just was', what is that.
Does a black-hole grow the more matter it swallows?
Material for a big bang had to be gathered, it wasn't poofed there as your theory tries to say.

If your god had stayed within its own rules it would have stuck to commandement #6 (I think this is the one about not killing), for instance. So much for your version of "reasoning".

And what about the one that said man would die, and all their children would die, that is also God's role is it not, He takes the breath of life away because of what had already happened. How can you hold Him to both? The flood would seem to have shown quite well that God will take lives if that is what He says will happen.

Should He also worship Himself? Those are the things God will look at when it comes the time to decide where you are headed next. How many won't even have to examine the 2nd one because the first has already determined their fate.

 

[MHz]

Well, what's obvious to you is erroneous. It doesn't rock. Again, so much for your version of reasoning.

LOL Okay you aren't off your rocker because you were never on one.

 

[L Gilbert]

It seems like you are the one who is poofing things, 'it just was', what is that.

Again, an erroneous assumption. Besides, I cannot count how many times various believers have used the same comment. God is because it just is. What is THAT?

Does a black-hole grow the more matter it swallows?

What does this have to do with the conversation?

Material for a big bang had to be gathered, it wasn't poofed there as your theory tries to say.

It isn't a theory, it's a hypothesis. And I never said anything about it being poofed there. My hypothesis says that the universe has always been existent and had no beginning and will have no end. It simply changes states. But I can understand that people have difficulty graspng the context of things being timeless unless it is these imaginary beings they call gods.

And what about the one that said man would die, and all their children would die, that is also God's role is it not, He takes the breath of life away because of what had already happened. How can you hold Him to both? The flood would seem to have shown quite well that God will take lives if that is what He says will happen.

Certainly, but it still remains that this god does not follow its own rules.

Should He also worship Himself? Those are the things God will look at when it comes the time to decide where you are headed next. How many won't even have to examine the 2nd one because the first has already determined their fate.

I don't think gods are worth worshipping, so my subjective answer would be "no", it shouldn't worship itself. But apparently it does in your Bible, as it constantly acts self-righteously, recklessly, and arrogantly.

In light of this, it is even more apparent that humans created gods in their own image.

 

[MHz]

Certainly, but it still remains that this god does not follow its own rules.

When those rules have words that say 'thou shalt not' it means those rules do not apply to the one giving them, it does not say 'We shalt not". Israel stopped doing them and God allowed Neb to take them captive. Did He follow through on that?
What about His rule that He keeps what is His, like mankind, there is a retrieval in progress, even though the way it is done won't please everyone until all is said and done. That works out quite well for mankind.

 

[L Gilbert]

LOL Okay you aren't off your rocker because you were never on one.

Wrong again. We had a regular rocker till we bought one of those glidertypes. I use it now and then.
As for matching wits with you, I can say that you are are quite a bit less than a challenge, especially when it comes to reasoning. But that is typical of religious people. If they were rational in the first place they wouldn't believe in such gibberish as invisible, all-powerful beings of love that mass murder other beings.

 

[L Gilbert]

When those rules have words that say 'thou shalt not' it means those rules do not apply to the one giving them, it does not say 'We shalt not". Israel stopped doing them and God allowed Neb to take them captive. Did He follow through on that?
What about His rule that He keeps what is His, like mankind, there is a retrieval in progress, even though the way it is done won't please everyone until all is said and done. That works out quite well for mankind.

Uhuh. Why then, did you tell me in the last page (4)

Well you aren't God....
To stay within His own rules He has to tell us about any changes that will be done before they are actually done. That is enough reason in itself. How well we understand the words determines how much of a surprise it is when it happens.

Make up your mind. Either this thing sticks to its own rules or it doesn't.

I guess it's just another inconsistency in this irrational nonsense called Christianity. Fortunately, there is no such being, so the issue of whatever this being does is moot. UNfortunately, people believe this drivel.

 

[Francis2004]

Quoting SirFrancis2004 Isn't that the issue in the first place ?

So many have gone, yet no one has returned to tell what the after world is like ?

Also we are left to blind "faith", "belief" and "trust" when all we have known on this planet are "lies", "deceit" and "distrust" as we are asked to repent all the time as the Church "assumes" we always do wrong..

My God is a loving God, not a hateful one..

I am not sure what this god of yours is. It is certainly not the Christian gad as that "entity" has been shown in the book that is supposedly its own word to be a malicious, immature sociopath.

So let me get this straight.. Because my God is a Loving God and not a Hateful one the belief is one of malicious and immature sociopath ?

I am just trying to see if I understand your point correctly .. That's all..

 

[GreenFish66]

Great conversation...There is a good grasp on reality here....So let's stir it up a little...In fun ..of course...Don't be too serious...!

 

[GreenFish66]

Was Jesus' Cat named Schrodinger..

Was Jesus's cat named schrodinger?????


Isn't it funny that we are still talking about a guy who didn't exist over 2000 years ago.?? Give or take a year or two!!.lol.
Depends where you start the zero, I guess !....

Could a "Joe the plumber"..like "Jesus", represent democracy???....I guess we continue to speak of ghosts, even though no one has REALLY, CONVINCINGLY, proven whether ghosts exist or not!!.I will bet there is a Plumber named Joe...He is out there somewhere.Is it the same Joe, That John McCain spoke of in the election??..Perhaps science can shed some light on these issues ..Although in physics, some particles have been known to travel through walls..Whether the walls were REALLY there or not , to the particle ,is still unknown...Can This Joe the plumber guy go through walls???...Man this is confusing??


Q....Why would a ghost particle named Joe ,go through a wall, that isn't there?.
A....Cause It couldn't use the door??(haha , sorry , bad joke).


..How could a REAL particle go through a REAL wall ,defy matter, space and time,Without using the locked door??????...Maybe it is easier to find the Golden key!!...Figure these mysteries out first .It Might be an easier task then proving whether a guy named Jesus existed...The idea is now bigger, than any one man, ever was!!....

Was hercules a real guy ??

ARE THERE ALIENS ???.....oooooooooooooo...spooooooooky!
To me Science is the best way to search for the answers to all these questions!

Oh yeah and by the way ,,,case you didn't know or it slipped your mind....Stephen Hawkings is coming to Ontario!..lol

..Sorry ,,,..I am excited!!

I am High on Information!.....Addicted to science!...lol, but it is just useless information, unless it becomes knowledge, and finally REAL TRUE wisdom!!

I believe anything is possible if you believe!!..

Whether the possible is probable, or REAL, is a matter of opinion, as a matter of fact !

It's right before your eye's, but iTts invisible !..lol

HUH???

Believe what you want, if it makes you happy ,and doesn't knowingly hurt anyone, along the way!!

If you think YOUR Jesus.!. I say ..Save yourself..Self-Savior......You might be High or crazy!

If you believe in the idea of Jesus .God, Alah! ,ITt ,whatever...If you have faith in peace, in something bigger than yourself! ,,,.You can be part of the man and live in his dream!! ( sounds a little creepy but don't get too literal lol)

But don't **** on others who choose to live in peace!!.Or have fun trying to feed a beast you can not tame! ......!

Have faith in a peaceful future..It will be achieved!..

Wait! ...So then...Who is this guy named Jesus??..This guy who doesn't exist???....lol

Who is this damned schrodinger cat I keep hearing about ??...Was this Jesus's cat???..Did it have kittens??

Who is this damned Joe guy I kept hearing about!?


These are the questions I would like to find the answers to..lol

If anyone see's anything strange or peculiar out there....Take a good picture or video, so we have some definitive proof for future reference!..Would ya please!lol

I have faith in our future!We have come so far!..There is no turning back now!..It is too easy to fall into negative thoughts..Gotta keep moving positively forward!

yes...I am High,,High on the mountain of life!.lol...

So far to go / Too far to fall!...So let's keep going !!

Jesus did , does and will always exist in the mind of those who believe...I am not religious by the way ..Just fascinated by the awesomeness of everything that has, is, and will be..lol

So How can you convince people who believe, not to believe, when it is something they believe in....You will only succeed in P'n them off!!??

I know ...I know..So much to do about nothing!!...Please excuse my spew!!

Peace....Have fun!!

Over and out there from here..But wait ..How can I be here and there at the same time eh?....Man cyberspace can be a fascinating place .Even if I don't really exist here!...lol

B.Greenfish66

Thank you for this space and your time!!...

 

[GreenFish66]

By the way ...Schrodinger did have kittens.,,,It was the book after Schrodingers cat..lol

 

[Vanni Fucci]

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ttaji10.txt

PART I.

A PARABLE

I am today twenty-five hundred years old. I have been dead for nearly
as many years. My place of birth was Athens; my grave was not far from
those of Xenophon and Plato, within view of the white glory of Athens
and the shimmering waters of the Aegean sea.

After sleeping in my grave for many centuries I awoke suddenly--I
cannot tell how nor why--and was transported by a force beyond my
control to this new day and this new city. I arrived here at daybreak,
when the sky was still dull and drowsy. As I approached the city I
heard bells ringing, and a little later I found the streets astir with
throngs of well dressed people in family groups wending their way
hither and thither. Evidently they were not going to work, for they
were accompanied by their children in their best clothes, and a
pleasant expression was upon their faces.

"This must be a day of festival and worship, devoted to one of their
gods," I murmured to myself.

Looking about me I saw a gentleman in a neat black dress, smiling, and
his hand extended to me with great cordiality. He must have realized I
was a stranger and wished to tender his hospitality to me. I accepted
it gratefully. I clasped his hand. He pressed mine. We gazed for a
moment silently into each other's eyes. He understood my bewilderment
amid my novel surroundings, and offered to enlighten me. He explained
to me the ringing of the bells and the meaning of the holiday crowds
moving in the streets. It was Sunday--Sunday before Christmas, and the
people were going to "the House of God."

"Of course you are going there, too," I said to my friendly guide.

"Yes," he answered, "I conduct the worship. I am a priest."

"A priest of Apollo?" I interrogated.

"No, no," he replied, raising his hand to command silence, "Apollo is
not a god; he was only an idol."

"An idol?" I whispered, taken by surprise.

"I perceive you are a Greek," he said to me, "and the Greeks," he
continued, "notwithstanding their distinguished accomplishments, were
an idolatrous people. They worshipped gods that did not exist. They
built temples to divinities which were merely empty names--empty
names," he repeated. "Apollo and Athene--and the entire Olympian lot
were no more than inventions of the fancy."

"But the Greeks loved their gods," I protested, my heart clamoring in
my breast.

"They were not gods, they were idols, and the difference between a god
and an idol is this: an idol is a thing; God is a living being. When
you cannot prove the existence of your god, when you have never seen
him, nor heard his voice, nor touched him--when you have nothing
provable about him, he is an idol. Have you seen Apollo? Have you
heard him? Have you touched him?"

"No," I said, in a low voice.

"Do you know of any one who has?"

I had to admit that I did not.

"He was an idol, then, and not a god."

"But many of us Greeks," I said, "have felt Apollo in our hearts and
have been inspired by him."

"You imagine you have," returned my guide. "If he were really divine
he would be living to this day."

"Is he, then, dead?" I asked.

"He never lived; and for the last two thousand years or more his
temple has been a heap of ruins."

I wept to hear that Apollo, the god of light and music, was no
more--that his fair temple had fallen into ruins and the fire upon his
altar had been extinguished; then, wiping a tear from my eyes, I said,
"Oh, but our gods were fair and beautiful; our religion was rich and
picturesque. It made the Greeks a nation of poets, orators, artists,
warriors, thinkers. It made Athens a city of light; it created the
beautiful, the true, the good--yes, our religion was divine."

"It had only one fault," interrupted my guide.

"What was that?" I inquired, without knowing what his answer would be.

"It was not true."

"But I still believe in Apollo," I exclaimed; "he is not dead, I know
he is alive."

"Prove it," he said to me; then, pausing for a moment, "if you produce
him," he said, "we shall all fall down and worship him. Produce Apollo
and he shall be our god."

"Produce him!" I whispered to myself. "What blasphemy!" Then, taking
heart, I told my guide how more than once I had felt Apollo's radiant
presence in my heart, and told him of the immortal lines of Homer
concerning the divine Apollo. "Do you doubt Homer?" I said to him;
"Homer, the inspired bard? Homer, whose inkwell was as big as the sea;
whose imperishable page was Time? Homer, whose every word was a drop
of light?" Then I proceeded to quote from Homer's _Iliad_, the Greek
Bible, worshipped by all the Hellenes as the rarest Manuscript between
heaven and earth. I quoted his description of Apollo, than whose lyre
nothing is more musical, than whose speech even honey is not sweeter.
I recited how his mother went from town to town to select a worthy
place to give birth to the young god, son of Zeus, the Supreme Being,
and how he was born and cradled amid the ministrations of all the
goddesses, who bathed him in the running stream and fed him with
nectar and ambrosia from Olympus. Then I recited the lines which
picture Apollo bursting his bands, leaping forth from his cradle, and
spreading his wings like a swan, soaring sunward, declaring that he
had come to announce to mortals the will of God. "Is it possible," I
asked, "that all this is pure fabrication, a fantasy of the brain, as
unsubstantial as the air? No, no, Apollo is not an idol. He is a god,
and the son of a god. The whole Greek world will bear me witness that
I am telling the truth." Then I looked at my guide to see what
impression this outburst of sincere enthusiasm had produced upon him,
and I saw a cold smile upon his lips that cut me to the heart. It
seemed as if he wished to say to me, "You poor deluded pagan! You are
not intelligent enough to know that Homer was only a mortal after all,
and that he was writing a play in which he manufactured the gods of
whom he sang--that these gods existed only in his imagination, and
that today they are as dead as is their inventor--the poet."

By this time we stood at the entrance of a large edifice which my
guide said was "the House of God." As we walked in I saw innumerable
little lights blinking and winking all over the spacious interior.
There were, besides, pictures, altars and images all around me. The
air was heavy with incense; a number of men in gorgeous vestments were
passing to and fro, bowing and kneeling before the various lights and
images. The audience was upon its knees enveloped in silence--a
silence so solemn that it awed me. Observing my anxiety to understand
the meaning of all this, my guide took me aside and in a whisper told
me that the people were celebrating the anniversary of the birthday of
their beautiful Savior--Jesus, the Son of God.

"So was Apollo the son of God," I replied, thinking perhaps that after
all we might find ourselves in agreement with one another.

"Forget Apollo," he said, with a suggestion of severity in his voice.
"There is no such person. He was only an idol. If you were to search
for Apollo in all the universe you would never find any one answering
to his name or description. Jesus," he resumed, "is the Son of God. He
came to our earth and was born of a virgin."

Again I was tempted to tell my guide that that was how Apollo became
incarnate; but I restrained myself.

"Then Jesus grew up to be a man," continued my guide, "performing
unheard-of wonders, such as treading the seas, giving sight, hearing
and speech to the blind, the deaf and the dumb, converting water into
wine, feeding the multitudes miraculously, predicting coming events
and resurrecting the dead."

"Of course, of your gods, too," he added, "it is claimed that they
performed miracles, and of your oracles that they foretold the future,
but there is this difference--the things related of your gods are a
fiction, the things told of Jesus are a fact, and the difference
between Paganism and Christianity is the difference between fiction
and fact."

Just then I heard a wave of murmur, like the rustling of leaves in a
forest, sweep over the bowed audience. I turned about and
unconsciously, my Greek curiosity impelling me, I pushed forward
toward where the greater candle lights were blazing. I felt that
perhaps the commotion in the house was the announcement that the God
Jesus was about to make his appearance, and I wanted to see him. I
wanted to touch him, or, if the crowd were too large to allow me that
privilege, I wanted, at least, to hear his voice. I, who had never
seen a god, never touched one, never heard one speak, I who had
believed in Apollo without ever having known anything provable about
him, I wanted to see the real God, Jesus.

But my guide placed his hand quickly upon my shoulder, and held me
back.

"I want to see Jesus," I hastened, turning toward him. I said this
reverently and in good faith. "Will he not be here this morning? Will
he not speak to his worshippers?" I asked again. "Will he not permit
them to touch him, to caress his hand, to clasp his divine feet, to
inhale the ambrosial fragrance of his breath, to bask in the golden
light of his eyes, to hear the music of his immaculate accents? Let
me, too, see Jesus," I pleaded.

"You cannot see him," answered my guide, with a trace of embarrassment
in his voice. "He does not show himself any more."

I was too much surprised at this to make any immediate reply.

"For the last two thousand years," my guide continued, "it has not
pleased Jesus to show himself to any one; neither has he been heard
from for the same number of years."

"For two thousand years no one has either seen or heard Jesus?" I
asked, my eyes filled with wonder and my voice quivering with
excitement.

"No," he answered.

"Would not that, then," I ventured to ask, impatiently, "make Jesus as
much of an idol as Apollo? And are not these people on their knees
before a god of whose existence they are as much in the dark as were
the Greeks of fair Apollo, and of whose past they have only rumors
such as Homer reports of our Olympian gods--as idolatrous as the
Athenians? What would you say," I asked my guide, "if I were to demand
that you should produce Jesus and prove him to my eyes and ears as you
have asked me to produce and prove Apollo? What is the difference
between a ceremony performed in honor of Apollo and one performed in
honor of Jesus, since it is as impossible to give oracular
demonstration of the existence of the one as of the other? If Jesus is
alive and a god, and Apollo is an idol and dead, what is the evidence,
since the one is as invisible, as inaccessible, and as unproducible as
the other? And, if faith that Jesus is a god proves him a god, why
will not faith in Apollo make him a god? But if worshipping Jesus,
whom for the best part of the last two thousand years no man has seen,
heard or touched; if building temples to him, burning incense upon his
altars, bowing at his shrine and calling him "God," is not idolatry,
neither is it idolatry to kindle fire upon the luminous altars of the
Greek Apollo,--God of the dawn, master of the enchanted lyre--he with
the bow and arrow tipped with fire! I am not denying," I said, "that
Jesus ever lived. He may have been alive two thousand years ago, but
if he has not been heard from since, if the same thing that happened
to the people living at the time he lived has happened to him, namely--if
he is dead, then you are worshipping the dead, which fact stamps
your religion as idolatrous."

And, then, remembering what he had said to me about the Greek
mythology being beautiful but not true, I said to him: "Your temples
are indeed gorgeous and costly; your music is grand; your altars are
superb; your litany is exquisite; your chants are melting; your
incense, and bells and flowers, your gold and silver vessels are all
in rare taste, and I dare say your dogmas are subtle and your
preachers eloquent, but your religion has one fault--_it is not
true_."

 

[In Between Man]

I've was reading God's word tonight, and it never ceases to amaze me how I can actually see Jesus speaking and living in my mind's eye. It's so powerful to hear the words that he spoke, and especially when you read how others reacted and what they said. It no doubt shows real, complex human sociology that not even the most clever writer could make up out of imagination. And there are many, many social interactions we can read about that show real humans learning from Jesus, following Jesus, attempting to trap Jesus with questions, not believing in Jesus and so forth.

Look at this real social interaction when the temple could not arrest Jesus in order bring him before the Jewish leaders. It shows real, human emotion and will that really happened:

John 7:45-53

45Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and Pharisees, who asked them, "Why didn't you bring him in?"

46"No one ever spoke the way this man does," the guards declared.

47"You mean he has deceived you also?" the Pharisees retorted.

48"Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him?

49"No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them."

50Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked,

51"Does our law condemn anyone without first hearing him to find out what he is doing?"

52They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet[a] does not come out of Galilee."

53Then each went to his own home.

Did you see that? Real human thoughts and words that no clever author could compile with the other claims about Jesus!!!

Remove all doubt from your mind, Jesus existed and he was God. Humbled before his creation, and suffered on the cross so that you can have free will AND your sins washed away, not to mention eternal life.

Praise God!!!! Hallelujah!

 

[TreeGirl]

Geesh and all this time I thought god was a Woman

 

[TreeGirl]

Zeitgeist anyone?

 

[Cliffy]

Zeitgeist anyone?

Yes TreeGirl, there really is a Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny that lays chocolate eggs. Just ask Alley to show you. He lives part time in the fifth dimension with them. That's why he only shows up here once in a while. Most of the time he is not in this dimension.

 

[Niflmir]

Mmm, thread necromancy.

If you are going to thread dig you could at least try to understand the issue, Alley. Nobody doubts that the bible claims Jesus existed. The point is that it is insufficient proof, and all the bible quotes you throw out won't change that.

Did you see that? Real human thoughts and words that no clever author could compile with the other claims about Jesus!!!

I mean, what sort of idiocy is this? Have you ever read another book but the bible in your life? People are brought to tears by works of fiction all the time because of the humanness of the thoughts and actions. Do the tears somehow prove it was nonfiction?

I really question your ability to comprehend life if you think things like this.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Geesh and all this time I thought god was a Woman

TreeGirl, I think God is a man, and Devil is a woman. The two need each other. That is why they get along so well with each other (remember the story of Job?). Personally I think the Devil is much more colorful, much more interesting character than God.

 

[VanIsle]

Geesh and all this time I thought god was a Woman

You mean you haven't heard? When God created Man - She was only foolin' :smile:

(yes - I am a christian but I can have a little fun without the world falling on me)

 

[VanIsle]

TreeGirl, I think God is a man, and Devil is a woman. The two need each other. That is why they get along so well with each other (remember the story of Job?). Personally I think the Devil is much more colorful, much more interesting character than God.

What do you mean Sirrup? Doesn't the song say "Devil Woman let me be" That has to tell anyone who the devil is. Strength! The female "race" has it all. :lol::lol:;-)