It's Heeeeere

[Breakthrough2006]

Yeah, but Layton is slamming Harper.

I find that the opposite is true. Just today, Layton and Broadbent sounded like they actually support Harper. I think their strategy is to remove the "scaryness" from Harper so that they won't lose votes to the Liberals from strategic voting.

People wonder where all the money will come from. They know they have to pay one way or another.

I believe the money will come from preventing the Liberals from wasting or stealing it. Not to mention that the surplus will be coming in close to $13 Billion dollars. The GST cut adds $4.5 Billion dollars worth of tax cuts, well within the budget.

 

[neocon-hunter]

Harper has a scarey hidden agenda. He is too dangerous and out to lunch to ever be elected. You will see what his real agenda is if he were ever to get into power. Power which he so deperatly craves, just like his buddy bushie. Harper would be mini me bush.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I find that the opposite is true. Just today, Layton and Broadbent sounded like they actually support Harper. I think their strategy is to remove the "scaryness" from Harper so that they won't lose votes to the Liberals from strategic voting.

It's clear that they don't support him, don't agree with him, and think that he's on the wrong side of every issue. They've said that over and over again and based it on Harper's unworkable platform.

They are trying to remove the scariness from Harper though. People voting Liberal because Harper scares them cost the NDP as many as twenty seats the last time around. That caused an unstable parliament where Martin was, for a time, able to govern from the right even though he ran from the left.

Look at the original budget...it was designed for Conservatives. Harper was raving about it, thought it was fantastic. If Harper wasn't a political buffoon, the NDP never would have gotten the chance to force the Liberals to fix the budget.

 

[Breakthrough2006]

Perhaps "support" was the wrong choice of words. Ed and Jack were indeed saying Harper is not the scary guy the Liberals make him out to be.

Personally, I never bought into the "scary" or the "hidden agaenda" propoganda. Even when I was voting Liberal. The Liberals have been saying one thing and doing the opposite for years. If that's not a hidden agenda, I don't know what is. Would adscam not be considered a hidden agenda. After all, they were secretly stealing tax payers money and giving it back to themselves.

Martin claims that he is the champion of healthcare yet he himself uses a private clinic and there are more private clinics in Canada today than ever before. Wouldn't that be considered a "hidden agenda"?

Martin registers his company in the Bahamas to avoid paying CDN income tax even though the Canadian government gave him over 150 million dollars in grants. How is that not a "hidden agenda"?

I could give several more examples but it would be overkill at this point.

Personally, I find Martin both scary and withholding a hidden agenda.

 

[Reverend Blair]

The Liberals hidden agenda has been around forever. They steal planks from the NDP platform to get elected, then pander to Conservative supporters while in power. That's why everything positive that the Liberals have done was done when the NDP held the balance of power.

The Liberals having a hidden agenda does not mean that Harper doesn't have one. Martin and Harper both support deep integration with the US. Martin and Harper both like private healthcare. Martin and Harper both support neo-conservative/neo-liberal policies in trade and aid. Martin and Harper have both shown a disdain for worker and union rights. Martin and Harper have both said and done things suggesting they would have sent our military into Iraq. Martin and Harper have both resisted meaningful political reform. Martin and Harper both put corporate profits before environmental concerns.

Harper is scarier than Martin only on social issues. Same sex marriage, native issues, and abortion. If the Conservatives think they have enough power you can expect the anti-science crowd to start making noise too.

So what? The Conservatives will have a short-lived minority government if (big if) they manage anything at all. Whether they get a minority or lose outright, they will again collapse in name-calling and finger-pointing. The empty threats and incestuous vitriol will fly. It will be like a party for guys like me.

The scariest thing about Conservative minorities is they tend to lead to Liberal majorities the next time around. A vote for Harper is a vote for another decade of Liberal majority governments, no electoral reform, short-sighted excuses instead of a real environmental policy, pandering to big business, kneeling in front of George Bush or whoever comes next, partaking in the de facto extermination of people in developing nations in the name of corporate profits, and the further erosion of our rights and freedoms domestically.

Vote for anybody but the Conservatives or Liberals. If you want change, neither of the two big parties have what you want.

 

[Breakthrough2006]

Rev.

I think you are missing my point. I am voting Conservative because they are in a position to bring down the Liberals. I'm not interested in having the Liberals back in power with a bone being thrown to me for having another party hold the balance of power. The Liberals should not be governing Canada and I would vote for Jack, Giles, Stephen, even Hitler to k
nock them off their perch.

I strongly believe that Adscam is only a small portion of what the Liberals have been doing for the past decade. The ONLY way average Canadians such as myself can get to the bottom of this is by having another party, ANY party running the country.

 

[Reverend Blair]

It is you that is missing the point, Breakthrough. That's what happens when you begin to believe that politics is a zero sum game that requires no nuance and consider political leadership to be about corporate profits instead of the well-being of the people.

I'll just repeat:

So what? The Conservatives will have a short-lived minority government if (big if) they manage anything at all. Whether they get a minority or lose outright, they will again collapse in name-calling and finger-pointing. The empty threats and incestuous vitriol will fly. It will be like a party for guys like me.

The scariest thing about Conservative minorities is they tend to lead to Liberal majorities the next time around. A vote for Harper is a vote for another decade of Liberal majority governments, no electoral reform, short-sighted excuses instead of a real environmental policy, pandering to big business, kneeling in front of George Bush or whoever comes next, partaking in the de facto extermination of people in developing nations in the name of corporate profits, and the further erosion of our rights and freedoms domestically.

Vote for anybody but the Conservatives or Liberals. If you want change, neither of the two big parties have what you want.

 

[peapod]

Yes breakthrough, I can see that for you, its about money. Although, bethinks you are out of touch which what alot of canadians are mored concerned about.

But than you are conservative, and we both know you have no majority. You like wars, your agenda is trying to force your moral and religious values on the rest of us. A total oxymoran, considering, you oppose any kind of welfare, in a country as rich as this, how many childern are hungry? Your terrified of change, and
inequality don't seem to bother you.

Like I say, and I only speak for myself, I will take a thief any day, than a group of terrified people, who wants to take this country back to the stoneage.

 

[Breakthrough2006]

You're just falling into the vote out of fear instead of vote for hope camp that I was talking about earlier.

What you're asking me to do is to vote NDP so that the Liberals can get back into power and "hopefully" the NDP will hold the balance of power. Then what? Wait another 40 years before the NDP is popular enough to actually hold power?

If the Liberals are in power another 5 years much less 40 will be the end of us all.

I am looking out for the well being of the people, that's why I'm voting for change.

If in the future, the NDP gain enough support, I may consider voting for them if I believe in their platform but I will cross that bridge when I get there.

 

[Reverend Blair]

You aren't voting for change though, Breakthrough. You are voting to keep things the same. The Conservatives are not in a position to force change unless they win a majority. They cannot win a majority because they cannot win seats in Quebec and stand to lose seats in BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario.

Vote for change. Vote for the NDP.

 

[peapod]

In fact...mmmmm one could say that consevatives have alot in common with stalin, than lefties. I mean he was consumed with keeping the soviet union the status quo. Ring any bells??

 

[Breakthrough2006]

You aren't voting for change though, Breakthrough. You are voting to keep things the same. The Conservatives are not in a position to force change unless they win a majority. They cannot win a majority because they cannot win seats in Quebec and stand to lose seats in BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario.

Vote for change. Vote for the NDP.

You're obviously an NDP supporter which is cool. At least you're not "scared" to vote for what you believe in.

I would disagree with you on your assumption that the CPC will lose seats. I agree that they won't win any seats in Quebec, but the Liberals will certainly lose seats. It's not a matter of "if" it's a matter of how many. I happen to know a lot of my friends that previously voted Liberal that are now voting Conservative. Surely there are others. I think the only place, the CPC has a chance of losing seats would be in Manitoba. I think the they will gain quite a bit in Ontario. Not in Toronto, but certainly in the surrounding 905 area. They voted Conservative before and they will do it again. Not to mention that there were many very close races in the 905 area code last time. I can also see them gaining seats at the expense of the Liberals in BC. The NDP will get their share of the seats in BC though. They will also likely gain seats in this election unless Martin can play the "scary" card effectively.

Overall, I think the Conservatives can win a minority government with 120 seats which is only 21 more seats than last time. The Liberals will lose seats in BC, Quebec (without a doubt) and Ontario. The East will likely continue to vote Liberal.

 

[peapod]

spin :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Breakthrough2006]

How is anything I wrote "spin" peapod?

 

[Reverend Blair]

How is anything you wrote not spin, Breakthrough?

You're obviously an NDP supporter which is cool. At least you're not "scared" to vote for what you believe in.

Because I believe in real change, not corporate lip service.

I would disagree with you on your assumption that the CPC will lose seats.

You would be wrong then.

I agree that they won't win any seats in Quebec, but the Liberals will certainly lose seats.

So?

I happen to know a lot of my friends that previously voted Liberal that are now voting Conservative.

I happen to know that a lot of people who previously voted Conservative are voting Green or NDP. Especially in two ridings in Saskatchewan.

I think the only place, the CPC has a chance of losing seats would be in Manitoba.

One or two.

I think the they will gain quite a bit in Ontario. Not in Toronto, but certainly in the surrounding 905 area. They voted Conservative before and they will do it again. Not to mention that there were many very close races in the 905 area code last time.

Except Harper opened up the whole SSM debate again and made himself look scary.

I can also see them gaining seats at the expense of the Liberals in BC.

Those seats have an equally good chance of going NDP, including some that are now CPC.

They will also likely gain seats in this election unless Martin can play the "scary" card effectively.

Harper does that for them. Look at the response to his healthcare plan. Look at Harper wanting to open up SSM marriage debate again. How long before one of your backbenchers brings up abortion? The NDP don't want you to look scary this time around, but it's an uphill battle and it isn't all the Liberals' fault.

Overall, I think the Conservatives can win a minority government with 120 seats which is only 21 more seats than last time.

Highly unlikely, but if they do the government will either fall on the GST reduction bill or Harper will have to admit having had no intention of going through with his promise because he knew he couldn't win a majority.

 

[Colpy]

Like I say, and I only speak for myself, I will take a thief any day, than a group of terrified people, who wants to take this country back to the stoneage.

Terrified!

Terrified????

Peapod, the terrified ones are the little girls who have listened nightly to Paul Martin's stories of the Big Bad Boogeyman called Stephen Harper.

Martin is torpedoing Canadian democracy with his fear mongering, and it has been swallowed whole by most of the members of this forum.

And you call us terrified?

Now that's funny. Or sad, I'm not sure which.

 

[Colpy]

In fact...mmmmm one could say that consevatives have alot in common with stalin, than lefties. I mean he was consumed with keeping the soviet union the status quo. Ring any bells??

Ahhh, if you read a little history you would discover that Stalin took over the party by subverting the local party apparatus by inserting his own followers everywhere. Then he bided his time, waiting for the correct moment to instigate a takeover of power from a former political ally.

And who reminds you of Stalin?

 

[Colpy]

How is anything I wrote "spin" peapod?

You will discover that any post sympathetic to the CPC is "spin", while hatred directed towards Harper or pro-NDP posts are TRUTH as handed down from on high.

We're not sure where "on high" is, but we suspect the NDP war room.

Praise Jack, from whom all blessings flow.

 

[Breakthrough2006]

How is anything you wrote not spin, Breakthrough?

When did someones personal opinion become "spin". If that's the case then everything anyone types here is "spin".

Because I believe in real change, not corporate lip service.

You even managed to take a compliment as an insult.

You would be wrong then.

Is that a fact or just your opinion?

So?

Every seat the Liberals lose is one seat closer to them being taken out of power.

I happen to know that a lot of people who previously voted Conservative are voting Green or NDP. Especially in two ridings in Saskatchewan.

As long as they don't vote Liberal, good for them. The difference is Ontario will win or lose the election for the Liberals.

Except Harper opened up the whole SSM debate again and made himself look scary.

I support SSM, but I also support Democracy.

Those seats have an equally good chance of going NDP, including some that are now CPC.

That certainly is a possibility which plays to my previous post about every seat the Liberals lose is another nail in the coffin.

Harper does that for them. Look at the response to his healthcare plan. Look at Harper wanting to open up SSM marriage debate again. How long before one of your backbenchers brings up abortion? The NDP don't want you to look scary this time around, but it's an uphill battle and it isn't all the Liberals' fault.

Harpers healthcare plan is very much similar to the Liberals and the NDP's plan. Unless someone would like to "spin" it that is.

Highly unlikely, but if they do the government will either fall on the GST reduction bill or Harper will have to admit having had no intention of going through with his promise because he knew he couldn't win a majority.

Rather ironic given that the Liberals accused the opposition parties of not cooperating. I'm sure Canadians would love to see an election in February 2006 because the Liberals/NDP decided that Canadians should not get a reduction in the much hated GST.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Ahhh, if you read a little history you would discover that Stalin took over the party by subverting the local party apparatus by inserting his own followers everywhere. Then he bided his time, waiting for the correct moment to instigate a takeover of power from a former political ally.

Hey, that's how the neo-cons took over the Liberal Party in BC. It's how the Reform/Alliance took control of the CPC, even while they claimed it was a merger. It's how the conservative Martinites gained control of the Liberal Party.

And who reminds you of Stalin?

My neighbour's father...he has the same moustache and hair.

Peapod, the terrified ones are the little girls who have listened nightly to Paul Martin's stories of the Big Bad Boogeyman called Stephen Harper.

How many Harperites have you been dealing with for how long, Colpy. Those of us in western Canada have been seeing these bastards up close for a very long time. We know why they're scary, and it isn't because Paul Martin said so.