Israel...

[Zzarchov]

I'll ask you the same question. Why were they kicked out of so many countries if they weren't causing some sort of internal disturbance.

Because when times get bad, people force out whomever is different. Thats why in the depression the US "Deported" US citizens of latino ancestry from California (even though some of their families had been there since california WAS part of Mexico)

Anytime "The Jews" or "The blacks" or "The natives" or "The latinos" or "The germans" or "The Christians" or "The muslims" etc have been evicted from somehwere its because there is a need for the scapegoat.

But that apparently doesn't matter.

Surely you believe the Palestinian Muslims deserved to be driven out of Israel, or can you explain why the only religion to be kicked out of more places than Jews (muslims being kicked out more) keep being driven from their homes if they aren't causing some kind of internal disturbance

Or does your bigotry only apply to Jews , not Muslims who have a worse history in a shorter amount of time.

 

[earth_as_one]

Well, as for Jews against Zion.....I don't doubt there is disagreement in the Jewish community about Israel's role. Jews have long been a progressive element in western society, and there is no doubt many will be influenced by Israel's hard stance on some issues........especially those Jews that live outside Israel itself. The left has recently ceased to be a factor in Israeli politics.........

As for why the Semetic population is now Arab vs Jew........ask Mohammed, read the Koran.

Before Zionists began settling and ethnically cleansing Palestine or what is today Israel and the Occupied Territories, this area was ruled by the Ottoman Turks. Jewish immigration and settlement in Palestine was welcome and encouraged:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]...The benefits of Ottoman rule are seen when one compares Ottoman practice with what was occurring [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]in Europe at the time. In Europe only one religion was tolerated and conversion, exile or death was the rule [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]for those who dissented. An example was Spain which, when conquered by Christian rulers, expelled the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Muslims and Jews who had lived there for centuries. The Ottomans took them in. While Jews lived through [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]ages of pogroms in Europe they lived in peace among the Turkish Muslims. In their time, the tolerance of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]the Ottomans was remarkable...[/FONT]

http://www.globaled.org/nyworld/materials/ottoman/turkish.html

As a result, many Jews migrated to Ottoman Palestine where they were treated relatively well and similar to other religious minorities. Before Zionism, Palestinian Jews were a small minority who lived peacefully with their Muslim and Christian neighbors.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Prejudice and racism existed but the same was true in Europe Canada and the US. Compared to Europe's treatment of religious minorities or US/Canada's treatment of Aboriginals, Ottoman Muslims practiced religious tolerance towards Christians and Jews.

In the late 1800's Zionist colonization of Palestine started out legally. (Jews have a right to ethnically cleanse Palestine of non-Jews). But as they encountered resistance they began to act illegally.

After WW I, Palestine was occupied by the British. Illegal Zionist activity accelerated leading to violence. During the 1930's and 40's war and massive Jewish immigration to Palestine from Europe triggered the Zionist ethnic cleansing war in Palestine (1946-1948). Towards the end of that war, Zionists forced the British out and declared independance. Neighboring countries declared war against Israel. Israel won that war with substancial foreign support, superior numbers, better equipment and training. Hundreds of thousands of displaced Arabs became landless nationless refugees. After the war, in violation of international laws and conditions for Israel's aceptance into the UN, Israel refused to allow the refugees to return home, confiscated and awarded "abandoned" land to Jewish immigrants and refugees and refused to allow the refugees to return home or pay compensation.

These people remain nationless refugees.

For 60 years, Israel continuously expanded its borders through confiscation and annexation. Israel continuously builds and expands Jewish only colonies on ethnically cleansed land. It has never stoppped its ethnic cleansing and has accelerated it during the Bush administration.

Israel's victims continue to suffer as non-citizens in poverty within the confines of refugee camps. They have no hope of justice or freedom.

A minority of Israel's victims have resorted to violent resistance.

Avalon Project - The Middle East 1916-2001 : A Documentary Record

http://www.alnakba.org/chronology/chronology.htm

Palestine: Destroyed Villages (1948)

Some have resorted to non-violent resistance:

As the residents of Bil’in village, accompanied by Israeli and International peace activists, conducted their weekly nonviolent protest against the Israeli Annexation Wall on the village’s land and the escalating attacks carried out by the settlers in Hebron, Israeli soldiers violently attacked the protesters, firing rubber-coated metal bullets and gas bombs; three, including a child, were wounded by rubber-coated bullets and dozens suffered from gas inhalation.​

Three wounded in Bil’in weekly nonviolent protests against the Annexation Wall - International Middle East Media Center - IMEMC

Palestine today:

Illustration by Nino Jose Heredia/Gulf News​

Gaza held hostage should outrage us all

By Linda S. Heard, Special to Gulf News
Published: November 24, 2008, 23:36
There are 1.5 million men, women and children currently imprisoned without food, water, fuel or essential medicines. There is little to cook and nothing to cook on except open-air wood fires. ​

Students do their best to learn by candlelight. Adults struggle to find transport to take them to work, those lucky enough to have a job; 60 per cent are unemployed. The lives of the sick hang on a lottery. Soon they will face the worst of the winter in the dark. Worst of all, there is no escape.​

As if all this suffering isn't enough, their neighbourhoods are regularly bombed; their leaders assassinated. They stood by helplessly as their life-sustaining olive groves were wilfully destroyed and their homes demolished. ​

Most of the people of Gaza have been captives throughout their lives. Today, they have nothing; no real champions, no future, no hope; not even bread. And what is the so-called international community doing about their man-made plight? The answer is nothing...​

http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10262301.html

8 December 2008

Israeli settler graffiti on a wall in the Old City of Hebron. (CPT)

...Comparisons of present-day Israel to Nazi-occupied Europe are common in Israel itself although they remain taboo everywhere else. The late Tommy Lapid, justice minister in Ariel Sharon's government, caused an uproar in 2004 when he said that images of an elderly Palestinian woman in Gaza "crouching on all fours, searching for her medicines in the ruins of her house" demolished by the Israeli army reminded him of his own grandmother who perished at Auschwitz. Lapid compared the Israeli army's writing of numbers on the arms and foreheads of Palestinian prisoners to the Nazi practice of tattooing concentration camp inmates. "As a refugee from the Holocaust I find such an act insufferable," he said in 2002.

Lapid, who was chairman of Yad Vashem, Israel's official Holocaust memorial, also likened the routine harassment of Palestinians by Israeli settlers in the West Bank city of Hebron to the anti-Semitism of pre-World War II Europe. "It was not crematoria or pogroms that made our life in the diaspora bitter before they began to kill us," he said in 2007, "but persecution, harassment, stone-throwing, damage to livelihood, intimidation, spitting and scorn." Lapid did not live long enough to see Hebron settlers attempt to burn down a house with a large Palestinian family trapped inside, an act witnessed on 4 December by Avi Issacharoff, reporter for the Israeli daily Haaretz, who called it "a pogrom in the worst sense of the word."...

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10013.shtml

To support treating millions of people this way is to either be wilfully ignorant or callous...

 

[MHz]

Considering the first place they were expelled from was their own homeland, your postulation of it being deserved is, with all due respect, plain stupid.

God didn't remove them because they were following His guidelines too closely now did He?

Because when times get bad, people force out whomever is different. Thats why in the depression the US "Deported" US citizens of latino ancestry from California (even though some of their families had been there since california WAS part of Mexico)

Anytime "The Jews" or "The blacks" or "The natives" or "The latinos" or "The germans" or "The Christians" or "The muslims" etc have been evicted from somehwere its because there is a need for the scapegoat.

That's true, you obviously didn't read why England kicked them out though because it was for a specific reason. When they got kicked out from France a decade later it was for the reasons you mentioned, sort of. The King wanted all their possessions, when playing the banker and/or tax-collector you have riches. Had they not been in those roles they would not have been removed, in theory.

But that apparently doesn't matter.

I'm much harder on bankers and crooked politicians and greedy corporations than I am on your do-no-wrong group. If you want to overlook their flaws, fine. Somebody should point out that the careers they prefer are in a large part responsible for their persecutions. That is what a friend would do. As it is nobody is supposed to say anything about them that is critical of their actions, yet you can use 50 pronouns in every sentence to demonize anybody that they say is upto no good. They can lie, that is their motto for attacking others, do it through deception. You're just too trusting to question if they would lie to you to get you to do what they want you to do.

Surely you believe the Palestinian Muslims deserved to be driven out of Israel, or can you explain why the only religion to be kicked out of more places than Jews (muslims being kicked out more) keep being driven from their homes if they aren't causing some kind of internal disturbance

Why, it's been their homeland for 100's of years, if you want it that way, have the European's move out of America and give that land back to the original inhabitants. It was desolate when they arrived, they had a right to own it, the Europeans had no right to take it by force.

Or does your bigotry only apply to Jews , not Muslims who have a worse history in a shorter amount of time.

Post some links then
Not just Jews cause I'm beginning to think you are even more two-faced than some of them can be. I'll reverse that if you agree that Europeans should go back to where they came from and leave the Americas to the original owners. They can be invited back but at a fair price, say $2,000 sq/ft.

 

[Zzarchov]

Not at all, I think everyone has a right to the land of THEIR birth, not their Ancestors.

Most "palestinian refugees" weren't born in Palestine/Israel, nor where their parents.

Likewise, regardless of what their Ancestors did, Israeli's were born in Israel, as were their parents. Where exactly do you propose "sending them back" to?

When someone is a quarter Ethiopian, quarter Russian, Quarter French and Quarter American by lineage, where exactly is their homeland if not the land they were born and raised in?

but hey, I guess that means you think Palestinians should pay $2,000 a square foot to get land from Israel right?

Or do you think they deserved it?

I mean if the Jewish inhabitants of france deserved to be driven out because they had something the french wanted to steal,

I guess that means if the Palestinians had their land really and truly stolen, its their fault for having something others wanted? Right?


You don't have consistent logic, you feel with your gut that you hate jews and are trying (and failing) to justify it with rational logic.

 

[MHz]

You don't have consistent logic, you feel with your gut that you hate jews and are trying (and failing) to justify it with rational logic.

Lets get something straight right now. If you want to quote me fine, but if you are going to start doing this sort of **** I will fight back and I guarantee you will be the loser.
I alone will state who I hate and who I do not hate, that better be clear with this one and only warning.

 

[MHz]

Not at all, I think everyone has a right to the land of THEIR birth, not their Ancestors.

What was the Balfour declaration all about then and who encouraged him to draft that letter in the first place? Should that also mean live in harmony with the existing people? (something that is never done BTW)
1917The Balfour Declaration was a short letter by Arthur Balfour to arguably one of the most influential Jewish families - the Rothschild's. It was assumed that the letter gave the British government's support to the creation of a Jewish homeland.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of His Majesty’s government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved, by the Cabinet:
His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours,

Arthur James Balfour​

Any exodus that happened because of this action should have made the mandate null and void.

Most "palestinian refugees" weren't born in Palestine/Israel, nor where their parents.

Really, there were about 600,000 people who were living there in 1915 that were not Jews, who were they if not Palestinians?

Likewise, regardless of what their Ancestors did, Israeli's were born in Israel, as were their parents. Where exactly do you propose "sending them back" to?

Maybe the solution is to let the other side rule for 70 years and evaluate the situation after that time. The Palestinians have a lot of very rich cousins, couse the Jews would have to give up banking and politics and other professions, but growing things isn't such a bad life.

When someone is a quarter Ethiopian, quarter Russian, Quarter French and Quarter American by lineage, where exactly is their homeland if not the land they were born and raised in?

That would seem to give them 4 choices. How many generations does it take for an import to Canada have their children say they are Canadian. (discounting the human rights angle)

but hey, I guess that means you think Palestinians should pay $2,000 a square foot to get land from Israel right?

Why they were alraedy there in 1915, before the plot to take their land. Any letter like the Balfour declaration should have originated in Palestine, when another country does it it is a conspiracy to steel land in another country.

Or do you think they deserved it?

Did who deserve what? Palestineians fought with the British and then the British gave their land away, how much more crooked can things be. BTW transjordan is not Palestine so shove you 90/10 split.

I mean if the Jewish inhabitants of france deserved to be driven out because they had something the french wanted to steal,

France deserves a capital letter or is this something to do with 'freedom fries'?
I didn't say they deserved it, Isaid the King of France was after money, if the Jews were not involved in the money business the ones who were would have been the ones targeted. It might sound similar but there is a difference.

I guess that means if the Palestinians had their land really and truly stolen, its their fault for having something others wanted? Right?

Well it was a foreign country who came up with the original idea so what would you call it. There were Jews there (as a minority) when it was part of the Ottoman and they got along quite well, as did the Christians (another minority). Once that changed it has been constant termoil, doesn't that say it isn't working. If the same anount of money that Israel has recieved was given to the Palestinians (and it would actually be more than double that because more Nations would be supportive) the whole country could be as affluient as Kuwait. Maybe the current termoil was part of the original plan, after all the Jewish bankers that started the ball rolling are right where they were in 1900. Well insulated from any direct danger.

 

[earth_as_one]

Wilfully ignorant or Callous:

Not at all, I think everyone has a right to the land of THEIR birth, not their Ancestors.

Most "palestinian refugees" weren't born in Palestine/Israel, nor where their parents.

Likewise, regardless of what their Ancestors did, Israeli's were born in Israel, as were their parents. Where exactly do you propose "sending them back" to?

When someone is a quarter Ethiopian, quarter Russian, Quarter French and Quarter American by lineage, where exactly is their homeland if not the land they were born and raised in?

but hey, I guess that means you think Palestinians should pay $2,000 a square foot to get land from Israel right?

Or do you think they deserved it?

I mean if the Jewish inhabitants of france deserved to be driven out because they had something the french wanted to steal,

I guess that means if the Palestinians had their land really and truly stolen, its their fault for having something others wanted? Right?


You don't have consistent logic, you feel with your gut that you hate jews and are trying (and failing) to justify it with rational logic.

Callous...

 

[einmensch]

Rational logic--the cult has spoken

 

[einmensch]

MOSCOW – An Israeli envoy urged Russia on Friday not to sell weapons to Iran that could be used to attack the Jewish state, a news agency reported...The deliveries of dangerous armaments to our enemies won't serve the interests of peace and, for instance, can help Iran wipe Israel off the face of earth," Gilad was quoted as saying.
This is how poor Israel puts it to the world.

The long-range S-300 is a much more advanced weapon that would make any potential Israeli strike at Iran's nuclear facilities more difficult. It turns out that these are defensive missiles. Since Israel has repeatedly stated that it will attack Iran, Iran is wise in building its defences. Poor Israel - just think- one of its neighbours might actually be able to defend itself. Israel may not be able to drop cluster bombs or bomb the harbours, hospitals, airports, government buildings as they did in the West Bank-poor Israel --Iran is out to get them

 

[einmensch]

JERUSALEM – Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak is warning that if Iran acquires a nuclear weapon, it could try to attack the United States.
Israel issues new warning on Iranian nuclear arms - Yahoo! News

I guess he had to use a boat since unlike Iraq, Iran couldn't launch missiles within 45 minutes.
Has Barak has now become a stand up comedian?

Bethlehem mayor: Pope to visit in May

I hope Popey bring lots of kleenex-spitting is a favourite pastime of Orthodox Jews
What Irael used forged papers to stae Israel owned West Bank Land-to build Jewish only settlements---Honesty prevails ?

 

[Just the Facts]

I guess he had to use a boat

Einmesh you are Einstein!!

Doesn't take much imagination. Oil tankers come out of Iran every day. One nuke in the cargo hold of an oil tanker making it's way up the hudson....who needs missiles.

 

[Zzarchov]

Wilfully ignorant or Callous:



Callous...

Its callous to suggest that the same Logic MHz was applying to people of Jewish Ancestry, apply to all people regardless of Ancestry?


I considered quoting his giant long "rebuttal" but his post, even though it quoted me...didn't relate to anything I said..at all..

 

[Zzarchov]

Earned it? Maybe so. Lord it over they who they deem as beneath them? Too often. Perhaps a bit of humility might soften the harsh edges that invite persecution. Arrogance - in anyone - invites contempt.

Woof!

Perhaps you should care less about the religion of those in power. Those in power are in one of two groups: You and yours, or someone else.

Do you really care if the doctor is Jewish or Christian or Muslim?

 

[einmensch]

Jaust the Factcs--Now tell me -what sense would it make for Iran to send a nuclear bomb on a cargo ship and detonate it in a US harbour? Duh -Iran expects to do what when the USA obliterates Iran? --Israel expects to be taken seriously-I don't think so---- but I'm sure you do

Zzarchov -do you care if your doctor is Jewish, Moslem or Christian--I guess the Hindus are nutral ??

 

[Zzarchov]

No I don't care what my doctor is, I only care if he's competant (one reason I tend to avoid doctors).

 

[Just the Facts]

Jaust the Factcs--Now tell me -what sense would it make for Iran to send a nuclear bomb on a cargo ship and detonate it in a US harbour?

You're asking me why the leaders of Iran are insane? I think your question is misdirected, I'm not the one to ask.

Ahmadinjihad likes to imagine that the Mahdi is near. Maybe he fancies himself as having an important role in facilitating the end days.

....but I speculate.

It's probably true, though.

 

[Just the Facts]

O, and by the way.....

On the eve of his trip to New York City, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stood before a banner blaring "Death to America," showed off his military might and declared his extremist regime will not bow to Western pressure.
"Those who think, that by using such decayed tools as psychological warfare and economic sanctions, they can stop the Iranian nation's progress are making a mistake," Ahmadinejad said yesterday outside of Tehran.
As the hatemonger spoke, a parade of anti-aircraft guns, missiles and military hardware moved before him. Three jet fighters flew overhead.
In a menacing move, Ahmadinejad's military henchmen said the medium-range missiles could reach Israel and U.S. bases in the Gulf.

You talk like I'm making this stuff up

Iran's Ahmadinejad issues new threats against Israel, U.S.

 

[Just the Facts]

Here's another good one:

"Death to America, Death to Israel" now considered the sixth pillar of Islam.....

Weasel Zippers: Mecca: Iranian Pilgrims Chant "Death to America, Death to Israel" During Haj.....

Now what would make me think anyone would want to detonate a nuke in New York harbour. I must just be crazy.

 

[MHz]

O, and by the way.....

On the eve of his trip to New York City, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stood before a banner blaring "Death to America," showed off his military might and declared his extremist regime will not bow to Western pressure.
"Those who think, that by using such decayed tools as psychological warfare and economic sanctions, they can stop the Iranian nation's progress are making a mistake," Ahmadinejad said yesterday outside of Tehran.
As the hatemonger spoke, a parade of anti-aircraft guns, missiles and military hardware moved before him. Three jet fighters flew overhead.
In a menacing move, Ahmadinejad's military henchmen said the medium-range missiles could reach Israel and U.S. bases in the Gulf.

You talk like I'm making this stuff up

Iran's Ahmadinejad issues new threats against Israel, U.S.

It would appear you are being lied to though. Israel is more than 100 miles away from Iran, even if they were fired right from the border.
"The advanced version of the S-300 missile system, called S-300PMU1 (SA-20 Gargoyle), has a range of over 150 kilometers (over 100 miles) and can intercept ballistic missiles and aircraft at low and high altitudes, making the system an effective tool for warding off possible air strikes."
RIA Novosti - Russia - Russia may sell more air defense systems to Iran

Is it maybe a more advanced system that this one.
"The S-300 is one of the most advanced multi-target anti-aircraft-missile systems in the world today and has a reported ability to track up to 100 targets simultaneously while engaging up to 12 at the same time. It has a range of about 200 kilometers and can hit targets at altitudes of 90,000 feet."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728256257&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

 

[darkbeaver]

I'll ask you the same question. Why were they kicked out of so many countries if they weren't causing some sort of internal disturbance. Have you ever considered that the citizens of the host countries were being victimized and they rose up and actually did something about it? Of course you wouldn't, your loyalty is blind though.
Why am I so 'negative', they associate themselves with God and they act the very opposite. It's a compulsive behavior, God says no so that is just what they do. They complain about the persecutions they have endured yet they have no restraint in that they commit the very same acts and then dare anybody to criticize them, let alone use some real muscle to halt their actions. Of course nobody will interfere, just like in the cases you provided, nobody did anything.


I would have pegged you as a home-owner with a zero tolerance for interference in the way you run things.

At some point in the future (at the event described below) I'm going to intentionally seek you out just so I can tap you on the back of the head with my palm and say "See."

Re:7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Re:7:10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Since nobody wants to defend the Jews on all the expulsions forced on them I'll do just to convert myself. Maybe the next incident will do that as this first example (expulsion from England of all places) seems rather justified. Could just be my narrow vision though. Please feel free to correct me. 1290, man there is such a long ways to go before we sleep'
The Edict of Expulsion of 1290, expelling the Jews from England

Most people with zero tolerance don't live long and neither do thier children. I do own a home and I can tell you the utmost tolerance went into it's construction. What has any of that to do with Israel you ask? Nothing, I reply.