Israel...

[darkbeaver]

Actually im including based on popular view amongst the citizenry. Whether or not those people are "properly educated" in your eyes is another matter.

Israel does have the popular support of America and Americans, anyone who is fighting Muslims can get pretty high levels of support in India and the Chinese have always historically been pro-zionist.

Properly educated popcult is a cultivated commodity in our world Zzarchov, coin can only get us so far in the real one though.

 

[Just the Facts]

Who says I'm wrong? You?

No, you did.

 

[Colpy]

You tell me.

Tell me why there is a growing movement called Jews against Zion? Zionist say it is because these are self hating Jews. I don't know the whole storybut there is something not right.
The Jews deserve their homeland, but there should have been some agreements in place before they got dumped there because nobody wanted them at the time. I don't understand why they are fighting because originally, the Jews were Arabs, brothers and sisters to the Palestinians.

Well, as for Jews against Zion.....I don't doubt there is disagreement in the Jewish community about Israel's role. Jews have long been a progressive element in western society, and there is no doubt many will be influenced by Israel's hard stance on some issues........especially those Jews that live outside Israel itself. The left has recently ceased to be a factor in Israeli politics.........

As for why the Semetic population is now Arab vs Jew........ask Mohammed, read the Koran.

 

[MHz]

Now, on to Israel.....an island of relative sanity, rule of law, and democracy in a sea of Islamic tyranny.

8O...and how many of it's citizens does it allow to live below the poverty line, it was over 20% the last time I checked.

Gee Whiz! Who should we support??? Why the Islamo-fascists that want to kill every Jew on earth, and conquer the world for Allah! They are soooo persecuted.

Wouldn't hate laws put you out of business basically? pot, kettle, black.

Once again I point out.........

rather than just your standard parrot type of reply I wouldn't mind reading your reference material, or are your Pentagram papers still classified?

Both the West Banl and Gaza were abandoned by their respective countries.....Jordan and Egypt.

This more than anything prompted a reply. Who controlled the area in question at the beginning of the 20th century, the Ottoman Empire. After that it was the British (who reneged on a promise to give them independence if they would help fight Turkey in WWI. So where does Egypt and Jordan fit in?
If it is their territory then every Israeli incursion into either territory is an act of war. Let alone the attempts to control power, food, internal rule, all those things have treaties that forbid such actions.

You really are sinking to a new low.

Israel can not blockade Gaza.......a long section of its border is with Egypt, to whom the territory rightfully belongs.....so explain why Israel is blamed?

How many countries (other than Israel) put up border crossings in the middle of their own country.

Jews were persecuted and murdered and restricted, and exiled, and robbed throughout the world for the 2000 years since the diaspora. There is no other people on earth that need a homeland more than the Jews..........Zionism is only good sense for a Jew. It is called survival.

Actually when God removes His own people from His land it is called exile. It is also up to God to invite them back (which hasn't happened yet BTW) and if you are a persecuted people (for blowing a good deal they had going with God) you should spread yourself thinly amongst some host countries. Bunching up or taking important positions in foreign politics only makes you an easier target. Do you think that will ever sink in?

And where should that nation be, other than in the traditional homeland????

Where God wants them to be, for what is coming they are much safer living in the Nations and keeping a low profile. So far they get a score of 0 on those two test questions.

You tell me.

For all your concern maybe you should be living over there where you can show your loving support every single day. Just read the "do not" signs as their jails are not all that democratic.

 

[Just the Facts]

The Jews deserve their homeland, but there should have been some agreements in place before they got dumped there

They didn't exactly getted dumped there. Those that weren't already there immigrated in in trickles over the span of almost a century. They bought land and turned desert and swamp into farmland and prospered. Arabs saw an opportunity and came looking for work.

because nobody wanted them at the time.

There was hardly anyone there to not want them. Most Palestinian Arabs were every bit as much immigrants as were the zionist Jews. The Zionists brought work and properity and wre for the most part welcomed in the beginning. It wasn't until the Arabs realized that the success of the Zionists would likely culminate in a state that they began to rebel.

I don't understand why they are fighting because originally, the Jews were Arabs, brothers and sisters to the Palestinians.

I wouldn't say the Jews were Arabs (especially to an Arab ) but I agree we're all brothers and sisters and shouldn't be killing each other.

 

[Colpy]

This more than anything prompted a reply. Who controlled the area in question at the beginning of the 20th century, the Ottoman Empire. After that it was the British (who reneged on a promise to give them independence if they would help fight Turkey in WWI. So where does Egypt and Jordan fit in?
If it is their territory then every Israeli incursion into either territory is an act of war. Let alone the attempts to control power, food, internal rule, all those things have treaties that forbid such actions.

.

Okay, so you consider the territories to be part of Israel.......so Israel would be justified, then, to move their military into the territories and take on Hamas nose-to-nose, to set up settlements throughout the territories, to execute "rebels" for treason, in other words, to act like any other sovereign country.......

Of course, if the territories are Israel, then Israel is in deep trouble, it soon ceases to be a Jewish state......which belies your comment that you had nothing against the idea........

 

[MHz]

Okay, so you consider the territories to be part of Israel.......so Israel would be justified, then, to move their military into the territories and take on Hamas nose-to-nose, to set up settlements throughout the territories, to execute "rebels" for treason, in other words, to act like any other sovereign country.......

Of course, if the territories are Israel, then Israel is in deep trouble, it soon ceases to be a Jewish state......which belies your comment that you had nothing against the idea........

Try reading and then posting. Who were the British going to give independence to at the end of WWI, but the reneged on after the people did what they (not the British) promised to do (fight with Britain against Turkey)?

In Canada we have territories, they are part of Canada, Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli territories, they are a foreign state. Why is Israel called a State and not a country?

Maybe they should take up a different name. like 'red-headed stepchild' at least then everyone would know why they are shaking their heads in condemnation. They screwed up when God was helping them, and you seriously think they will do better when God isn't there? You really are taking this blind allegiance to a whole new level.

 

[Just the Facts]

MHz here's a quick history lesson for you. The Arabs were given 80% of Palestine. They were offered another 10 which would have totalled 90%. 90% of the land that Britain had originally slated as a Jewish homeland.

That wasn't good enough for the Arabs. They want it ALL.

Real History behind Palestine and Israel conflict

 

[einmensch]

​

A group of American Jews urged president-elect Barack Obama on Thursday to move the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which the international community does not recognise as the capital of the Jewish state.
No State has ever recognised the annexation of Jerusalem. The intelligent looking group is urging Obama to recognize an illegal grab of Jerusalem.

Regarding support for Israel--Only three countries consistently support Israel in front of the General Assembly of the United Nations.

 

[einmensch]

No, the Jews want it all but they are having difficulty getting it.

 

[Just the Facts]

No, the Jews want it all but they are having difficulty getting it.

Which explains why they accepted the UN plan in the first place, gave back the Sinai, pulled out of Lebanon, withdrew from Gaza, .... o wait.... Nevermind.

 

[MHz]

The British decided that in 1917, to do that land had to be appropriated, who cares if it took them 30 years. Why aren't they legally obliged to give independence to the ones who lived there that helped them in a war?

If Britain and France and whoever are planning to 'aquire some land' far away from their border then that is plotting a war against the people who live there. If those countries want to 'donate some land' then it should come from within their own borders. If you steal something and give it away (actually the one that recieved the stolen goods was the one who instigated the theft in the first place) that does not mean the theft never happened.

British Mandate of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the Jews are so benign why was Britian holding some without charges or trials, they even made Cyprus a prison for them. I just live this quote."
"Due to fears in Cyprus that the Jews would never leave (Jewish refugees lacked citizenship or documents), prisoners subsequently began to be released and allowed to move to Palestine at a rate of 750 a month.
"Due to fears in Cyprus that the Jews would never leave (Jewish refugees lacked citizenship or documents), prisoners subsequently began to be released and allowed to move to Palestine at a rate of 750 a month."

 

[Zzarchov]

​

A group of American Jews urged president-elect Barack Obama on Thursday to move the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which the international community does not recognise as the capital of the Jewish state.
No State has ever recognised the annexation of Jerusalem. The intelligent looking group is urging Obama to recognize an illegal grab of Jerusalem.

Regarding support for Israel--Only three countries consistently support Israel in front of the General Assembly of the United Nations.

Actually many states have recognized the annexation of Jerusalem.

When the Jewish Majority territory was annexed from a sovereign state by Jordan it was recognized.

Even the Palestinians try and claim Jerusalem as "Their" territory, demanding the East half from Israel.

Technically it isn't Israels to give nor the Palestinians to have.

 

[Just the Facts]

If Britain and France and whoever are planning to 'aquire some land' far away from their border then that is plotting a war against the people who live there.

Jews were among the people who live there. Why should they get nothing? They settled happily for 10%. The Arabs weren't satisfied with 90%. That's the bottom line.

 

[MHz]

This doesn't look like 10% or did you mean 10% of the Ottoman
File:Faisal-Weizmann map.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit to add,
During World War I, the Jewish population declined because of the war, famine, disease and expulsion. In 1915, approximately 83,000 Jews lived in Palestine among 590,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs. According to the 1922 census, the Jewish population was 84,000, while the Arabs numbered 643,000.4 Thus, the Arab population continued to grow exponentially even while that of the Jews stagnated.
In the mid-1920s, Jewish immigration to Palestine increased primarily because of anti-Jewish economic legislation in Poland and Washington’s imposition of restrictive quotas.5


Take 10% of the populations, that would be a estimate of how many from each side actually fought. You just got to wonder what was going on in Poland that would require 'anti-Jewish economic legislation'.

 

[Just the Facts]

Ummm....Jordan? Just ignore it? 80% of the original mandate of Palestine.

 

[Just the Facts]

You just got to wonder what was going on in Poland that would require 'anti-Jewish economic legislation'.

No you don't. Same thing was going on that went on everywhere else anti-semitism took hold. Jews worked hard and prospered. Others were jealous and vilified them. Not complicated.

 

[MHz]

No you don't. Same thing was going on that went on everywhere else anti-semitism took hold. Jews worked hard and prospered. Others were jealous and vilified them. Not complicated.

Thanks for the link.
Lets see what is being hidden, strangely enough not much can be found about Poland and the Jews in the 20's, all those economic things seemed to be moved into the late 30's and early 40's. Hmmmm..........
This might be somewhat similar.
"When the Nazi Party was formed in 1920, its party platform included four anti-
Jewish goals: Jews should not be citizens, and should be given the legal
status of foreigners; Jews should not be public officials; Jews should be
forbidden to immigrate to Germany; and Jewish owners or editors of German
newspapers should be removed from their positions. These declarations were
similar to the platforms of other antisemitic groups active at that time."
http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 5741.pdf

Read the next few paragraphs and see how many points are being reenacted in Israel these days. Laws concerning marriages, property confiscations, positions of employment restricted, etc. If the Jews felt so wronged why are they doing the very same acts. What's that syndrome where the victim starts playing the exact same role as the aggressor as soon as they get the chance. Then again, maybe that is what all those expulsions were about.

Seems to be about swearing allegiance to the host country. If they were viewed as 'foreigners' then they should not have control of internal media. One thing I did find is that they have been exiled from many countries over the centuries. Surely not every host country was to blame every time.
A Brief Chronology of Antisemitism

 

[einmensch]

What was going on in Poland ? Without looking it was a reaction to the Jewish led Bolshovik Revolution--

Israel bit off more than they can chew-they have kept part of Syria and Lebanon--focus is on the West Bank expansion and fragmenting the Palestinian Territories-
Moving out of Gaza was cost efficient-

Deutchland fuer Deutche, Israel for Jews--congruency

 

[Zzarchov]

Ummm....Jordan? Just ignore it? 80% of the original mandate of Palestine.

More if you count their "important homeland" they sold to Saudi Arabia.