Is There Power to Prayer?

[#juan]

Another thought

I've known a lot of intelligent, kind, gentle, people who were/are very religious. These people included among them, many Engineers, doctors, accountants, bricklayers, etc.. A full spectrum of every walk of life. Not one would belittle another's faith. I'm not particularly religious though I grew up in a fairly religious family. I have an open mind but my current church has a parish of one. Me. I guess my point is, that religion, and prayer, are among the choices we can make and which ever way we choose, is nobody's business.

 

[Semperfi_dani]

RE: Is There Power to Pra

I am curious how my comments are inflammatory, therefore leading to my "stupidity" and "neivety", when all along you have been very passive agressive, even to those who are willing to hear your ideas.

 

[FiveParadox]

:!: Caution : This post may contain objectionable language.

I used to be both a Roman Catholic, and a Protestant Christian (that's the way the two sides of my family worked out, so I took on both). However, when the reverend of my Church took me into his office after discovering that I was gay, to inform me that I was nothing more than a sinning fag, and informing me that I would be going to Hell and was no longer welcome in his Church, that kind of ruined things for me.

I haven't been an overt fan of organized religion since.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Is There Power to Prayer?

But Religion doesn't require the proof test justification.

Why do religious ideas have such a privileged position?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

I am curious how my comments are inflammatory...

If you really have to ask that, there's no chance you'll understand the answer.

 

[jimmoyer]

Dexter Sinister, if you can't measure it, see it, weigh it,
x-ray it, prove it, then there is no merit to it ?

What an anti-septic, sterile approach.

The Scientific Method has a wonderful sequential
logic, but the arts don't, the spirit doesn't, and your
emotions don't.

Religion not only does not require nor submit
to such a proof test, it is also not privileged from
examination.

It surely is examined, but not in some sterile lab test,
or anti-septic math problem, or viewed from Arecibo
in Puerto Rico.





MR. RUSSERT: Rabbi Lerner, you wrote this in your book, “Most of those on the Left ... feel queasy even thinking about allying with spiritual and religious progressives. ... Many on the Left, to be blunt, hate and fear religion.” Why?

RABBI LERNER: Well, there’s a long history of this, first of all, because the left emerged in the struggle against feudalism and sided with the emerging capitalist class and adopted a world view that said that that which is real is that which can be verified through senses or measured. But there’s another more immediate experience, and many of the people on the—who have come into liberal or progressive movements have had the experience of being in oppressive, hierarchical, patriarchal, sexist, homophobic or racist churches. And that experience has led them to, I think, draw the wrong conclusion, namely that they’ve said, “Well, this is all religion.”

 

[Curiosity]

Some people....

Have bad experiences when they have been faithful to a religion either by family upbringing or turning to religion in a crisis expecting comfort of some kind...yet some experience all manner of shunning, necessarily changing ourselves to "suit", or removal of core beliefs which we prefer to keep. In other words we are expected to deny SELF....many organized religions to do this.

For example in Five's vignette - to deny him his humanity - is an aberration - a defect in mankind's focus - substituting religious belief for strict law and rules - when we are all individuals who were created in unique ways. Unique because they test us in our ability to adapt to positive lives with our "differences"...while maintaining them.

We need to remember that many organized religions are man-made and are therefore flawed - and should not expect "organized religion" and its "man-made doctrines and dogma" as the path to our own personal higher power.

It is only within we can find comfort in faith - not through bargaining with God and then turning away from God when we "don't get satisfaction".... or fall pray to those "religious" to pick and choose who is "worthy" within their philosophy.

Organized religion has created more secularism than faith - simple personal constant faith. Faith needs no outside instructors along the way - other than trust in our own faith.

We can choose to walk without faith by refusing to acknowledge the power available to us..... or we can be aware of faith and put it to use....as long as we don't expect it to work in ways we demand.

Faith is merely to choose self-acceptance on life's journey - not to change the journey itself. Additionally we can enhance this journey by honest self-knowledge of our worst and our best.

Dexter - whether you acknowledge it or not - your passion here indicates to me you have serious acknowledgement of a higher power because if there were no such entity, why are you so angry - when according to your opinion and irrefutable scientific evidence you have no expectation attached to a "non-entity"???

If there is no basis for religious belief why would you also be upset with those who do believe there is "something" guiding us....If we follow your thinking, we would be fools following the pied piper and we should have your pity.

In my life I didn't reach my opinion easily, but challenged and fought it every step of the way. In my case, I simply gave up because it was more positive to acknowledge the phenomenon of faith and a higher power than to keep out the constant challenging, questioning and denial which played hell with my head. My internal chaos and fighting the trauma of events left
me little desire to continue living...until I finally gave up.

Once I let go - stopped trying to capture the natural flow of the river in my stupid little bucket...turned around and let the water carry me.... it was so simple. I like simple. I am lazy.

Non-belief however does make an excellent scape-goat for us to refrain from attaining our potentials in life, because we can always have something to blame when things don't work out.

Whatever your choose Dexter - you are right - for you - in the present of your life.

 

[Outta here]

Dexter, there is absolutley no requirement for you to have or acknowledge a faith in pretty much anything.

If this is working out for you, I suggest you maintain your current position with all the vigor you can muster.

For those of us who do in fact hold a belief system that enhances our faith, the need need for proof of said faith just becomes unnecessary, for it negates the concept of faith itself. Faith is beyond proof. It is a deep inner KNOWING.

This knowing is a blessing to those who have found it. It is the place to which one can turn when there's nowhere left to seek one's answers, one's solace, one's hope.

When I hear someone state they have no source for such inner nurturing, I find myself feeling more compassionate towards them, for it is inevitable that we each of us will encounter times in our lives when KNOWING that there is a place of comfort that exceeds all external sources - and people who have not discovered this place within themselves are left with one less tool to make this journey go a little easier with. So Dexter, I respect your stance, and wish you immeasurable satisfaction in your determination to NOT believe. That isn't tongue in cheek either, it's sincere. If you are comfortable and self fulfilled in your beliefs, no need to alter them.... but I suspect you'll have little success debating this subject if logic and proof are the measures you require to be met.

There are just some things in this life that defy logic Dexter. As far as I'm concerned, it's not necessarily because there is no orderly logic to such things, it is merely because we are not evolved enough yet to understand the logic that applies to spirituality.

As a side note, I have observed that many people - including myself - find their way to their faith through catastrophic life events that force them to seek until they find. Loss of a loved one can often be the trigger. For others, it may be a simple erosion of finding any purpose or meaning to getting up each day. Or the realization of thier own mortality. Or the constant bombardment of man's inhumanity to man. At whatever point one begins the journey, the inner soothing that transpires upon finding this solace makes every step of the arduous path worth it.

I wish you godspeed on your path Dexter, even if it leads you exactly where you are right now.

Thank you for sharing your stance on this issue though, I honour what is true for you.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Is There Power to Prayer?

:!: Caution : This post may contain objectionable language.

I used to be both a Roman Catholic, and a Protestant Christian (that's the way the two sides of my family worked out, so I took on both). However, when the reverend of my Church took me into his office after discovering that I was gay, to inform me that I was nothing more than a sinning fag, and informing me that I would be going to Hell and was no longer welcome in his Church, that kind of ruined things for me.

I haven't been an overt fan of organized religion since.

"And early in the morning He came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them."
"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"

"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."

"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."

"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."

"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"

"She said, No man, Lord."

"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:2-11 KJV)

Hand the man a stone.....

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: Is There Power to Pra

Is religion faith or human?
Is religion good or indifferent?
Is religion personal or collective?
Is religion truth or dogma?
Is religion destination or path?
Is there power in prayer? Yes. Is there power in faith? Yes. Do faith or prayer require religion? No.Is religion the well spring of faith? No. The source of the power called faith is the mind, the source of god is the mind, the God concept has served some men well but its time is over, the god concept must be put aside by mankind before it puts mankind aside. That does not require that we also abandone faith and prayer, only that we acknowledge the dangers and evil of theocracy. Organized religion has always sought to monopolize thought and thats why it remains a clear and present danger to humanity.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

when the reverend of my Church took me into his office after discovering that I was gay, to inform me that I was nothing more than a sinning fag, and informing me that I would be going to Hell and was no longer welcome in his Church, that kind of ruined things for me.

It is attitudes such as these which really turned me off the mainstream church. If Jesus was walking around the Earth today he'd be hanging out with gays just as he hung out with all the other ritually unclean of the day.

 

[selfactivated]

Dex I feel your pain, in fact I hated god so much I banished him from my life until recently. Im not a bible thumper......and I know my idea of quantum physics is a joke to you. But a million words cant discribe how you or I feel about the Sorce of the world. Im not as smart as you or most people here are but my feelings are very deep about the hope I have for my fellow human beings and the future of this beatiful blue ball.

Theres a canadian I truely respect, two actually, Agnes Whistling Elk and Ruby Plenty Chiefs. Ive followed their paths through Lynn V. Andrews. Your country is full of spiritual Mystery, the land itself breaths Love and trueth. If you want the trueth to this debate start there. Walk through the woods and come back and tell your friends here what your experience was when all there was was you and Gaia.

 

[pastafarian]

Two of the reasons why I respect the Baha'i faith and encourage my children to be raised in it are contained in the Principle of the Faith words of its founder, Bahá'u'lláh:

THE ESSENTIAL HARMONY OF SCIENCE AND RELIGION

*Religion must conform to science and reason, otherwise it is superstition. God has created man in order that he may perceive the verity of existence and endowed him with mind or reason to discover truth. Therefore scientific knowledge and religious belief must be conformable to the analysis of this divine faculty in man.

and

INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF TRUTH

*God has given man the eye of investigation by which he may see and recognize truth. He has endowed man with ears that he may hear the message of reality and conferred upon him the gift of reason by which he may discover things for himself. This is his endowment and equipment for the investigation of reality. Man is not intended to see through the eyes of another, hear through another's ears nor comprehend with another's brain. Each human creature has individual endowment, power and responsibility in the creative plan of God.

Emphasis added by me.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It's not other people's beliefs that raise my ire and indignation. It's stuff like this:

"So only YOUR arguments are valid and only YOUR beliefs are valid? Only YOUR position is right? The rest of us are stupid and nieve in our beliefs?"

And this:

"What an anti-septic, sterile approach."

The ad hominem attack that imputes motives, attitudes, and beliefs to me that I have not displayed then tries to call me out on the basis of such fictions. The condescension, The pity. The scorn. And ultimately the clear but unstated conviction that the believer's view of the world is somehow richer, more noble, and superior. I'll call BS on that every time.

And lest there be any remaining doubt on where I stand, I'll lay it on the line: religious belief is a delusion. It's a delusion largely approved of and supported by most societies, but it's a delusion nonetheless. Reality is much richer and more interesting than any religionist ever imagined. And religion too often leads to displays of willful ignorance, arrogant certainty with no test in reality, and intolerance of those who challenge the beliefs.

 

[Jay]

"What an anti-septic, sterile approach."

I don't think that was meant as an attack Dex. It's just jimmy's thing....I took it to mean "clean". Jimm isn't much of an attacker.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Curiosity]

DexterSinister

I hope you won't get angry but I am still curious as to why you are so determined everyone who has a belief in (whatever they wish to name it)....is wrong. From a distance I think you have great belief in God or Higher Power and you are removing that possibility by seeking to argue it away. You may be allowing it to control you with emotion rather than pure disengaged dissection.

Your hot button reactions to this topic tells me your former belief still has power and you choose to fight it with scorn or disbelief or a determination to mock all matters of faith - because if you truly didn't care, you wouldn't keep challenging others who do.

The whole issue is complicated Dexter and if you keep trying to rebuild everyone's thoughts into your own - it won't work.
Not about faith (or whatever you feel ok calling it).

Just relax and know whatever you feel good with is right for you.
WC