Is There Power to Prayer?

[Curiosity]

Dexter

If you choose to disbelieve that is your path - just let go and don't work so hard at proving you are right. It is your choice - a personal choice - and not for anyone else to sit in judgment.

That you acknowledge deep love for your mother should sustain you in getting through the grief if you allow it to be present - even in your non-prayerful thoughts.

It has only been one year - and the first is the worst.

 

[Curiosity]

Hi Mad Hatter - welcome to you on this Easter Sunday!!

I found your post uplifting but had never heard of krebiozen before went looking for it. I had never heard of clinical trials being done on lymphoma patients of this particular drug.... and not under the auspices of the AMA....but was curious.

Apparently it was one of the early "alternative" therapies recommended which ultimately did nothing.

As the patient Mr. Wright was willing to try anything - no doubt the choice was his to make and perhaps gave him the strength to fight the disease temporarily.

Cancer has made great strides since that drug was on the scene in the 50s....and great advances have been made in therapies and cures - such that many other dreaded diseases have benefitted as well from the research.

I wonder if any psych class would use that particular drug as an example of the power of prayer or mind in curative process - but there is definitely a place in any medical team for psychological direction and motivation for healing thought....when dealing with terminal illness.

I am of the belief that when faced with "no choices left" - there is always the choice of self-power in healing.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dexter

If you choose to disbelieve that is your path

You miss the point entirely. I have made no such choice. It's not that simple.

 

[selfactivated]

But it IS a matter of choice My Friend........Thats what faith and belief are.......choices.

 

[Sassylassie]

Dexter in your post you wrote "Those are my--and science's-- standards of evidence." That's the point of Faith, it isn't about science or evidence it's about Faith, the power to believe in the un-tangable. No you can't taste it, or feel it, or see it, or hear it, but it is just as real as if we could.

Dexter when I read your posts in this thread I can picture you shaking in righteous indignation. Are you the ulitimate authorit6y on this subject, No. You don't agree with "Mysticism" so you deem our beliefs as nonsense and you state we dilute and distort the facts to fit into our beliefs. That is your opinion and only yours.

What is it about the mystical that makes you so angry? Is it because we have touched a nerve? You may believe it is nonsense but there are those of us who believe in the un-known. I don't need a "Tome" filled with researched scientific facts to make up my mind on the power of Prayer or Faith, I can-and do believe in the un-believable.

Mad_Hatter you will often find a thread goes off topic for a while, so don't let it get your knickers in a twist. Wednesday's Child and myself are thread curves we will bend the odd thread.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

I actually thought my post was right on the mark, and I'm not quite sure why or how you thought my "knickers would be in a knot" but anyway... :wink:

The example above demonstrates the power of faith. Mr. Wright believed so strongly in this miracle drug that he became well-- essentially he had so much faith that he healed himself, even when all he was injecting into himself was water (a placebo). I would assume that the same could happen with prayer. If an individual prays for themself, or has others pray for them, and that same individual has incredible faith in the power of prayer I would guess they could, in theory, be healed (or heal themselves).

The brain is an extremely complex organ with awesome and often unexplainable capabilities.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You too have missed my point entirely, Sassy. I am not shaking in righteous indignation, I'm not claiming to be an authority, nor am I angry. I'm just trying to explain where my exploration of these matters over the past few decades has taken me. Please do not impute motives and attitudes to me that I haven't stated then try to respond to them, you'll be led astray. I'll say it again: you cannot trust your memory and perceptions to give you the truth of things, because memory and perception are widely known to be prone to errors. If you *do* trust your memory and perceptions, without safeguards against those errors, you're very likely to get things wrong.

I claim no certainty, merely what seems likely to me to be true based on my understanding of the world around me and how things work in it. I might be wrong. So might you. That's why these things need talking about.

 

[selfactivated]

Dex
Have you ever heard of the "Tummy Test"? Its something I use when I read a "Theory" book or read a poster in a forum. If my tummy goes sour its not something I keep in my arsenal. If I get chills or a warm tummy feeling I can say it resinates with me......It works very well for me. Without sounding Pompous (hard for me to do at times) When I read your words I feel that its truely YOUR feelings YOUR beliefs and your in a place where your not going to be open to others ideas. Thats really really ok. Theres times I'll clamp down on an idea like a pit bull. Wanna piss me off? Lets talk about child abuse I'll kick that till its a dead horse and not be to kind. I feel in your posts your trying to present a more logical , scientific veiw into what you prescieve is being treated with emotion. OK I can see your point. But in my observation over the past 5 years faith, belief and spirituality are not a science based ideation but clearly a personal journey and a felling based one at that. I know Im not making myself clear but basically Im saying I hear your words and I agree I see it differently. BUT we both have valid points.

Namaste
Tam

 

[Semperfi_dani]

RE: Is There Power to Pra

For those who claim not to need evidence: what possible basis do you have for thinking you're right?

The same thing you have in your claims...when it comes down to it...nothing. Speculation at best. But i choose to speculate on the side of faith, you choose to speculate on the side of science. Thats fine. I don't think you are wrong, and i certainly hope you do not think I am wrong. Some people need proof, others do not. Its neither here nor there, as none of us know for sure.

 

[I think not]

Dex

I understand what you are trying to say, but if I may, you appear to be "stuck" in providing proof of something you most likely will never find. Your position, unless I am reading you incorrectly, is to analyze an event, and exhaust every angle of it, until science cannot explain by theory (at least) what occured.

Well you will never find an answer in the context of science. Science and the supernatural (or whichever term you prefer), don't mix. From my understanding from a couple of your posts, you are a scientist, and scientists have to explain or prove within the confines of science an event. Supernatural phenomenon are not subject to an explanation through science, natural laws. If they couldm they wouldn't be supernatural.

I realize you neither believe nor disbelieve in a supernatural existance, you just seek more explanation. Faith cannot be based on reasoning and skepticism, that's what it boils down to. You appear to be stuck in between somewhere. If I may, and I don't mean to sound rude, continue your struggle to seek whatever you are looking for, the truth lies within yourself and nobody can tell you otherwise.

ITN

 

[selfactivated]

Perfect, I Think Not! Its a very personalised journey with no rights and wrongs. Said very well and with compassion.......very nice.

 

[Sassylassie]

Yes ITN well said.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

It's interesting you mention scientists... I'm a 4th year honours biology student: I hope to qualify for that category one day

I most DEFINITELY think it's possible for people to embrace both science and faith, though I struggled (and admittedly often do still struggle) with this often.

Me personally, I'm not sure where I fall in the wide spectrum of faith. For 19 years I was raised in a suffocatingly religious household, and it turned me off the mainstream church permanently. I still have faith in something though, if perhaps only because it helps ease my fear of death and the unknown.

I must say I am always reluctant to admit I am a Christian to people who don't know me extremely well. Doing so inevitably causes these people to label me and assume I subscribe to the close-minded belief system of my other Christian counterparts, I don't. In fact, I am definitely one of the more left wing people I know. My building gives out joke "awards" at the end of each year and mine was 'Hippie Incognito', if that tells you anything

Knowing what I do know about science, and the evolution of many religions, and the ignorance and hatred I so often see in my own I often find it hard to "keep the faith" so to speak. But I think it is ignorance to look at the beautiful complexity of the natural world and all its ecosystems and all the organisms that live and interact within it and believe there is nothing more. (Don't misconstrue that-- I am actually a fervent "believer" in the theory of evolution.) There are prominent scientists out there who profess both faith in a higher power and faith in induction and observation. One such individual is Roman Catholic biologist Dr. Kenneth Miller, outspoken critic of Intelligent Deisgn (He was also featured on the PBS documentary "Finding Darwin's God--excellent show.)

So, as I said: I am not really sure where I fit into the complicated puzzle of faiths or how strongly I believe in anything; but I most definitely believe it is totally possible to ascribe to science and have faith in the supernatural... though fundamentalists from both worlds (the scientific and the religious) will often tell you different, faith and science are not so mutually exclusive as they seem.

 

[Curiosity]

What a lovely topic ....if I have said anything to hurt anyone it was unintended.... only my view .

I believe there is no separation between evolution and creation....that evolution is occasioned by creation itself, and when I ever have doubt of a "higher power"... I merely look at a spider web to see its excellent and scientific design.

The marriage of evolution and creation is one we avoid because people seem determined to keep them apart when to me it is obvious evolution has taken place at the will of some "power" for want of a better word.

I hope everyone's Easter has been good, thanks for this wonderful discussion....I can't stay and I wish I could. WC

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

For those who claim not to need evidence: what possible basis do you have for thinking you're right?

The same thing you have in your claims...when it comes down to it...nothing. Speculation at best. But i choose to speculate on the side of faith, you choose to speculate on the side of science. Thats fine. I don't think you are wrong, and i certainly hope you do not think I am wrong. Some people need proof, others do not. Its neither here nor there, as none of us know for sure.

You appear to be suggesting all opinions are equally valid, which is emphatically not true. I have a good deal more than nothing in support of my claims. Reason, logic, and the weight of evidence, are on my side. All you have on your side is unsubstantiated metaphysical speculation.

More generally:

Why is it always the skeptic who gets accused of not being open to new ideas? I'd wager heavily that skeptics are a good deal more open to new ideas than you true believers are. But you can't just state them, you have to make the case for them. True believers seem to think that because they can put the label "religion" on their ideas that they automatically deserve respect and ought to be immune to criticism. Wrong. Religious ideas have to take their lumps in the marketplace same as any other ideas do. You can't have it both ways, your ideas are immune and mine are not.

I've stated my position clearly, produced multiple cogent arguments and citations in support of it, and not one of you has made any attempt to come to grips with that. Instead I've received pity, sympathy, and unsubstantiated denial. Not one of you, in fact, has said anything more significant than "I believe what I believe because I believe it." Not good enough.

I suppose I should be grateful that at least this time there were no ad hominem attacks on me. But I'm not, really.

I don't think I have anything more to contribute to this thread.

 

[Semperfi_dani]

RE: Is There Power to Pra

So only YOUR arguments are valid and only YOUR beliefs are valid? Only YOUR position is right? The rest of us are stupid and nieve in our beliefs? Well pardon me than..my mistake. I in my stupidity will now change my train of thought becuase of your arguments. Hell..why not build the church of Dexter? Cuz only you are right.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

Not one of you, in fact, has said anything more significant than "I believe what I believe because I believe it." Not good enough.

I don't think anybody on this thread tried to convince you of anything, quite the contrary, everyone was being very respectful to you in your quest for whatever it is you seek. That's good enough.

I suppose I should be grateful that at least this time there were no ad hominem attacks on me. But I'm not, really.

Perhaps because your real attempt has been to discredit others' beliefs as opposed exchange of opinion? Starting to look like it.

 

[Toro]

The fact that man has not proven that God exists does not mean God doesn't exist. What it means is that man hasn't proven God exists, nothing more. That fact that we cannot make such a proof would be because of the limitations of man, not God.

Because of this, the logical position of those who do not believe in God is not as an atheist but as an agnostic.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

So only YOUR arguments are valid and only YOUR beliefs are valid? Only YOUR position is right? The rest of us are stupid and nieve in our beliefs? Well pardon me than..my mistake. I in my stupidity will now change my train of thought becuase of your arguments. Hell..why not build the church of Dexter? Cuz only you are right.

Well, based on that inflammatory response I might judge you as being stupid and naive, but no, ITN has it right, people here were generally respectful and nobody was trying to convince me of anything (neither was I, though I don't expect you'll accept that), and I appreciate that. But nobody seemed to be taking me very seriously either, because there were no serious attempts I could understand to address the issues I raised. The religious position requires justification just as much as my irreligious position does, and if people can't or won't do it, there's nothing more to talk about.

 

[jimmoyer]

The religious position requires justification just as much as my irreligious position does, and if people can't or won't do it, there's nothing more to talk about.
------------------------Dexter Sinister----------------------


Scientific Method, the proof test, is beautiful.
It is necessary. It is highly instructive.

But Religion doesn't require the proof test justification.

Religion provides its own justification by its warnings
against bad preachers and of bad behavior. Every religion also has its excesses when it warns not to follow others who have bad behavior or who have lost direction in life, and so those who interpret these instructions make mistakes and offend those who don't believe.

But to knock any religion because there is no
scientific proof appears to be a very rigid concept.

So rigid that I suspect something is lost by
being so rigid.