Is There Power to Prayer?

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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RE: Is There Power to Pra

The sun is my god, it commands every second of all life for as far as its power radiates, every atom on this planet obeys it without hesitation. It sees all and knows all.
 

tracy

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Nov 10, 2005
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I think prayer can help for individuals who believe... sometimes. I don't think it's the cure all that some people do. I've seen too many people in denial truly believe that prayer will cure their loved one, then they are shocked when it doesn't work.
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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I agree Tracy, for the hard core Holly Rollers and the born again Christains they are almost blinded by their faith. I figure when my numbers up-it's up and I'll be gone.
 

Jersay

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I don't see what kind of pray are we talking about??

Christian kind of prayers or any kind of praying or thinking?

Because I am a Asatru or Heathen but I don't really understand what this thread is really about??
 

tracy

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That's sort of how I see it. I think the people who have the most success with prayer are the ones who pray for strength in the face of adversity, not those who pray for cures.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

JonB2004 said:
Religion. What a joke. I don't think God or prayer exists.

I believe God exists as a matter of faith. But as for prayer, people do it every day. So it must exist.
 

Outta here

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Jul 8, 2005
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oh wow! Loooooove all the responses. Again, I'm just doing a quick check in here - gotta go color eggs with my daugher, but I just have to thank you all....

Spirituality and religion are very sensitive topics for many. It's not always easy to talk about for everyone, and I think that's a shame. I view the care and acknowledgement of our spirit as a fundamental need. Like breathing.

It's wonderful to see you all wading in here - I respect all sharings on this topic, and hope to see much more discussion generated around what's springing forth on this thread.

And just for the record, I don't think there is a single right way of looking at it. Everyone is right, if they are experiencing a satisfaction within themselves for what they believe, and how they honour not only their own existence, but their connection to the rest of us.

My quick 2 cents.

The eggs await, I'll be back...
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Doctors say it helps

I have a co-worker who tore her aorta on Monday, and now she's hooked up on a ventilator, fighting for her life. The staff says she's responding to prayer. She's an atheist.

FWIW
 

Semperfi_dani

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Nov 1, 2005
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RE: Is There Power to Pra

Worship in whatever form is still worship. Pagans, Christians, Buddhists, Moselms etc alike worship, pray or participate in some other form or other.

My prayers to God are no different than a pagans ritual celebration. Its obviously a different form, but the point is to seek guidance. I do not see prayer or worship as a be all end all to solve problems. I see it a guidance for me to solve my own problems. I do not pray in the hopes that through prayer, someone will be cured or some other bizarre reason.

However, when something does happen that defies logic, or even logically makes sense, for those that want to look it that way, it could be attributed to Faith. It's just one possibility.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Well, somebody has to say it. Not one of the affirming stories presented here is worth a damn as evidence of anything, and I fearlessly predict that will also be true of anything else that shows up. Memory and perception are notoriously unreliable, especially when they're related to something you want to believe is true.

All these nice affirmative tales are readily explicable by one or more of the following:

ad hoc hypothesising http://www.skepdic.com/adhoc.html
anecdotal evidence http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html
appeal to authority http://www.skepdic.com/authorty.html
argument to ignorance http://www.skepdic.com/ignorance.html
begging the question http://www.skepdic.com/begging.html
communal reinforcement http://www.skepdic.com/comreinf.html
confabulation http://www.skepdic.com/confab.html
confirmation bias http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html
divine fallacy http://www.skepdic.com/dvinefal.html
false memory http://www.skepdic.com/falsememory.html
magical thinking http://www.skepdic.com/magicalthinking.html
pareidolia http://www.skepdic.com/magicalthinking.html
post hoc fallacy http://www.skepdic.com/posthoc.html
pragmatic fallacy http://www.skepdic.com/pragmatic.html
retrospective falsification http://www.skepdic.com/retfalse.html
selective thinking http://www.skepdic.com/selectiv.html
self deception http://www.skepdic.com/selfdeception.html
wishful thinking http://www.skepdic.com/wishfulthinking.html

In other words, the short answer to the thread title's question is simply, No.

And let me offer an anecdote of my own. My mother, to whom I was very close, was passionately religious, and in the face of my deep skepticism she offered me a deal as the end of her life neared. She would undertake to manifest herself to me after her death in a way I would be absolutely unable to deny, in front of witnesses, as evidence of the validity of her beliefs, and in return I'd have to surrender my skepticism. She was completely convinced she could do it. After all, she reasoned, others have reported apparitions of dead loved ones, and if anyone could do it, she should be able to. Couldn't argue with that, so I accepted.

She died 16 January 2005. I haven't seen her since. Not that I ever expected to. And to those of you who'd argue that my disbelief prevents it, or proffer some other mystical explanation, I refer you to the first link above on the ad hoc hypothesis.

In summary: "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind."
--H. L. Mencken
 

Semperfi_dani

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Nov 1, 2005
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RE: Is There Power to Pra

But again..i do not need proof. I have a different experience than you. I don't expect to see my granparents in some weird out of world ghost like experience, nor anyone that passed away.

But i do beleive that prayer can offert comfort to those that are suffering if that is the case for them. Your experience is different, but all the links in the world and all the proof in the world will not change what I believe to be true.
 

I think not

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Apr 12, 2005
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And despite the list of possible explanations, I would still choose to believe something different. Faith is a choice Dexter, it has nothing to do with explaining anything, you either choose to believe it, or you don't. It's really that simple. In my opinion anyway.
 

Semperfi_dani

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RE: Is There Power to Pra

And further more, none of us know what is right and wrong. All those links you posted are pure theory. Noone knows for sure. I do not try to convince anyone who doesnt beleive in God that they are wrong. Nor will anyone who doesn't believe in God convince me I'm wrong.

Faith is a choice Dexter, it has nothing to do with explaining anything, you either choose to believe it, or you don't. It's really that simple

Yep.
 

selfactivated

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Apr 11, 2006
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Dexter Sinister said:
Well, somebody has to say it. Not one of the affirming stories presented here is worth a damn as evidence of anything, and I fearlessly predict that will also be true of anything else that shows up. Memory and perception are notoriously unreliable, especially when they're related to something you want to believe is true.

All these nice affirmative tales are readily explicable by one or more of the following:

ad hoc hypothesising http://www.skepdic.com/adhoc.html
anecdotal evidence http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html
appeal to authority http://www.skepdic.com/authorty.html
argument to ignorance http://www.skepdic.com/ignorance.html
begging the question http://www.skepdic.com/begging.html
communal reinforcement http://www.skepdic.com/comreinf.html
confabulation http://www.skepdic.com/confab.html
confirmation bias http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html
divine fallacy http://www.skepdic.com/dvinefal.html
false memory http://www.skepdic.com/falsememory.html
magical thinking http://www.skepdic.com/magicalthinking.html
pareidolia http://www.skepdic.com/magicalthinking.html
post hoc fallacy http://www.skepdic.com/posthoc.html
pragmatic fallacy http://www.skepdic.com/pragmatic.html
retrospective falsification http://www.skepdic.com/retfalse.html
selective thinking http://www.skepdic.com/selectiv.html
self deception http://www.skepdic.com/selfdeception.html
wishful thinking http://www.skepdic.com/wishfulthinking.html

In other words, the short answer to the thread title's question is simply, No.

And let me offer an anecdote of my own. My mother, to whom I was very close, was passionately religious, and in the face of my deep skepticism she offered me a deal as the end of her life neared. She would undertake to manifest herself to me after her death in a way I would be absolutely unable to deny, in front of witnesses, as evidence of the validity of her beliefs, and in return I'd have to surrender my skepticism. She was completely convinced she could do it. After all, she reasoned, others have reported apparitions of dead loved ones, and if anyone could do it, she should be able to. Couldn't argue with that, so I accepted.

She died 16 January 2005. I haven't seen her since. Not that I ever expected to. And to those of you who'd argue that my disbelief prevents it, or proffer some other mystical explanation, I refer you to the first link above on the ad hoc hypothesis.

In summary: "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind."
--H. L. Mencken

I liked your post Dexter, It was well thought out and cornered you into a very safe corner. I could tell you the story of my Mom's last breath on the east coast as I awoke screaming and gasping at the very second she left. But it wouldnt change your mind and you have the RIGHT to your opinion. I havent seen hide nor hair of her but a very sweet irishman who works in sweeden does channel her. She tells him very adimantly as soon as she opns her damn ears I'll quit haunting you!" LOL My friend begs me" PLEASE Tam help me! Shes relentless!" I tell him......"Your telling me?! I lived with her!" Anyways, you believe the way you choose to and THAT my friend IS perfection! :) Faith, belief is something we ALL experience and NOONE has the right to disallow your feelings or thoughts.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

Semperfi_dani said:
All those links you posted are pure theory.
No, they're not, they're widely known well documented characteristics of human memory and perception, as you'd know if you'd actually read and understood them. There are lots of examples given, and multiple more references provided that you could spend years spreading your mind out into.

Faith is a choice Dexter, it has nothing to do with explaining anything, you either choose to believe it, or you don't. It's really that simple
Yep.
Nope. That completely trivializes faith. I can no more choose to believe than you can choose not to. It's far deeper than a simple choice.
 

Outta here

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Jul 8, 2005
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Well, for those that pray, I'm assuming they are doing so because THEY believe (or maybe just HOPE) that it enhances their lives in some way. That enhancement might not arrive in the form of a magical God-like intervention occuring - although there are situations I've heard of and experienced myself where in fact that does seem to be the case. For all the logical reasons not to pray, there are many instances that just cannot be explained in current terms of 'what's logical' where prayer seems to have offered some sort of a positive impact.

I think though, that prayer does something more. It offers an affirmation to the one engaging in this activity that they are NOT powerless over their own lives, feelings, hopes dreams, worries. That they can somehow contribute a desire to whomever they pray to and that this desire MATTERS.

In situations where a dear one is suffering, prayer can often be the only solace once can find - offering a sense of contribution and genuine caring for that other person's suffering. Worst case scenario in this situation is this: There are two people suffering. One from physical illness, one from worry about the other. One prays for the other. The one doing the praying is the only one who's suffering is alleviated to any degree at all. End result, one person's suffering was alleviated. Best case scenario: 2 people's suffering were alleviated. This is one of the most intrinsic ways in which we acknowledge that we exist as part of a whole. That we are not merely pointless nor random nor accidental in our existence. This is a very necessary acknowledgment for many of us. It helps us define our humanity.

Now as to the effectiveness of prayer, I firmly believe it does provide immense effect. The greater the faith, the greater the effect. Including one's belief that prayer will NOT help. No matter what the belief, it will be affirmed.

What's really cool is that science is beginning to examine this phenomenae. It's still in it's infancy in terms of being able to provide measurable results, but because it delves into quantum physics and the like, I am quite inept at discussing it at any kind of intelligent, provable manner. This would require a left brain, of which I was apparently short changed at birth. lolll

I will try to find some links to reputable studies that have been or are being conducted that can explain it much better than I could ever hope to.

In my most basic understanding, thought is energy and has a significant impact upon what it is directed towards. This is why prayer is believed to have effect. And by prayer, please let me be clear here. All thought is prayer. Meditation is prayer. Fervent desires are prayer. Anything to which one gives one's focus and invests one's energy into thinking about produces a form of prayer. It does not have to be preceded by "Our father, who art in heaven...." that's just a formality that I personally do without. lollll

This is not a new theory by any means, but the scientific examination of it is. Perhaps somewhat accidentally, science is beginning to bridge the gap between itself and religion.

Movies such as "What the Bleep do We Know" are beginning to surface now, and I expect we'll see alot more of similar types of documentaries, movies etc that delve deeper as more empiracle (sp?) evidence comes to light.

There is much written about this very subject if one is truly interested to learn more, and I'll be happy to research some titles if anyone would like me to.
 

tracy

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I'll add a negative possible outcome to Zan's scenario: The worrier prays, but the sick dies anyways. The worrier then blames him or herself because s/he must have done something wrong for God not to listen. Or s/he experiences a crisis of faith, coming to the conclusion that God does not exist. I've seen those outcomes more than once. Sometimes they will return to their faith in the end, sometimes they won't. Either way, they need a lot of support.
 

selfactivated

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Sometimes they find a stronger faith ;) I dont know how personal yall get around here so Im trying to keep my life experiences to myself. (I said TRYing) ..........Namaste my friend :)
 

tracy

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I think we all get as personal as we want:) I've seen some people's faith strengthened through adversity, I've seen others lose their faith completely. I can't argue for or against either outcome.