Is There Power to Prayer?

selfactivated

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My split from God was at a very young age, I begged for God to make my stepdad stop hurting me. No answer came and I spent 32 years trying to figure out why I was not worthy of saving. Then I found the truth within myself 5 years ago. I found *self worth* and within self worth I found that I (me) was my own deity. I was Goddess and only I could forge my own destiny. As I actually believed that thought. I started playing with new higher powers and new Ideas. I became co-manifester of my own reality. I was in charge! How freeing! no more begging for help no more needing a god that never answered, no more not owning my own destiny. I was my own savior! And Ive done a damn good job of co-creating heaven on earth. Every now is pure perfection. Sorry. I do go on......and on.....and on. LOL Im my own favorite subject.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Self

I'm sorry about your stepfather.

Maybe you think of God in the wrong matter.

You often hear about people talking about God doing this to people or not doing that to people. I have fundamentalist friends who believe God has chosen certain paths for them, that God has a life plan for them. I've often thought that was perhaps the wrong way to look at God. For example, whenever athletes praise God for them winning a football game, I've never quite believed this line of reasoning.

Its a similar argument to "If there is a God, why is there so much suffering in the world?" Perhaps, that's the wrong question. Maybe the question should be "If there is no God, why is there so much love in the world?"

The existence of God does not mean all evil has been eliminated. It doesn't mean bad things won't happen. The Bible is pretty much all about delineating what actions are good and what actions are bad. Why would the Bible talk about being good to your fellow man if God could get rid of all the reasons just like that not to be good to your fellow man?

So perhaps you are looking at God the wrong way.

I've never personalized my life around my perception of God's intent for myself. I believe God loves me, like He loves everyone, but I don't believe He is micromanaging my life. But if you believe in this line of reasoning, that if there is a God, he is intently involved in your life, think of it this way. Perhaps God saved you from a worse fate at the hand of your stepfather.

(Oh, and just in case you think I'm a Bible-thumper, I'm debating whether or I should go to church the once or twice I occassionally do so on the holiest days on the Christian calendar, since in a few hours, its Blackburn v. Liverpool.)
 

Curiosity

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Dexter

You have put a time frame and evidentiary encumbrances on your mother's predictions which no doubt gave her peace in themselves as she neared her time of death. Perhaps the deep determination she had that she would again be able to hold you in her heart gave her strength to let go. Perhaps easing her departure was the message itself.

She is in another place and may be trying but with your windows and mind firmly closed to any possibility, along with your disbelief, perhaps you have failed to recognize any signs. As you state: "I never expected it".... nor will you until you release yourself. Thereafter you have spent time amassing all the information you require to deny the possibility - written by others who know nothing of you or your mother. It is your personal journey alone and nobody can describe it for you.

It is nothing we can describe in mere words, but acceptance is the key. Open hearts and minds clear the way. What do you stand to lose other than letting go of your earthbound arguments.

Using debate and scientific modality is a path leading nowhere.

You must still be in pain over losing your mother as it has been a short time - I extend my sympathy. Simply let your anger and "conditions" go. In so doing, it may be the final gift your mother can give you. In her final hours her love for you gave her strength - even after death - to demonstrate and express it to you.
 

Curiosity

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Thank you everyone who wrote here...

What a lovely day to start my day and especially on a holiday Sunday...

Rarely these days do we see fragile questioning, overt rage and disappointment, and diverse but gentle descriptions of our personal experiences and theories.

We all carry the deepest inside and words are simply not available to impart understanding to others....

But the theme running through was so human....a treat to read.
 

I think not

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Apr 12, 2005
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Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

Dexter Sinister said:
Nope. That completely trivializes faith. I can no more choose to believe than you can choose not to. It's far deeper than a simple choice.

Sure its far deeper, it becomes deep after the choice. When you don't believe, you are on a neverending quest to "prove" to yourself the existance of a God(supernatural, spiritual, whatever you want to call it), as opposed to taking a leap of faith. I took a leap and feel better for it.

I don't seekout answers to questions I will never get an answer to. People who have a difficult time making that leap are (usually) those who see the glass half empty.

I don't live by a rule book, I let my conscious guide me, I just let in some occassional help.
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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WC, I have enjoyed this thread also. ITN you took the words out of my mouth. Tracy you made a very valid point, if the power of prayer fails their are those that feel they have failed. My faith gives me strength but I don't use it to pray for life or death because that is up to a higher power. I've always believed when your numbers up it's up. I also follow the phylosophy if it's meant to be it will be and I don't sweat the little stuff. Like ITN I let my conscience guide me.

SelfActivated it took great courage to tell you story, thank you. I'm glad you found your inner voice, let her yell every now and then to cleanse the soul.

Zan how is the Easter Egg hunt going, lots of chocolate yes? Give the kids back their chocolate Zan.
 

Jay

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Jan 7, 2005
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Toro said:
(Oh, and just in case you think I'm a Bible-thumper, I'm debating whether or I should go to church the once or twice I occassionally do so on the holiest days on the Christian calendar, since in a few hours, its Blackburn v. Liverpool.)

Don't worry if you didn't make it....I went for both of us! :)
 

selfactivated

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Apr 11, 2006
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Toro said:
Self

I'm sorry about your stepfather.

Maybe you think of God in the wrong matter.

You often hear about people talking about God doing this to people or not doing that to people. I have fundamentalist friends who believe God has chosen certain paths for them, that God has a life plan for them. I've often thought that was perhaps the wrong way to look at God. For example, whenever athletes praise God for them winning a football game, I've never quite believed this line of reasoning.

Its a similar argument to "If there is a God, why is there so much suffering in the world?" Perhaps, that's the wrong question. Maybe the question should be "If there is no God, why is there so much love in the world?"

The existence of God does not mean all evil has been eliminated. It doesn't mean bad things won't happen. The Bible is pretty much all about delineating what actions are good and what actions are bad. Why would the Bible talk about being good to your fellow man if God could get rid of all the reasons just like that not to be good to your fellow man?

So perhaps you are looking at God the wrong way.

I've never personalized my life around my perception of God's intent for myself. I believe God loves me, like He loves everyone, but I don't believe He is micromanaging my life. But if you believe in this line of reasoning, that if there is a God, he is intently involved in your life, think of it this way. Perhaps God saved you from a worse fate at the hand of your stepfather.

(Oh, and just in case you think I'm a Bible-thumper, I'm debating whether or I should go to church the once or twice I occassionally do so on the holiest days on the Christian calendar, since in a few hours, its Blackburn v. Liverpool.)

I was six, so whatever preconceived notion I had about a catholic god was to say the least biased and to say the most self loathing. I see the deeper truth now a days and it has nothing to do with the drama of it or a right/wrong mentality. Its done and over and Ive emerged the beautiful butterfly I am :) My goal in life is to grow, The more I experience the more I grow. Im not terribbly bright or savy but I am a good learner. I learned a great deal from that little girl, I would not be who I am if I didnt experience those exact experiences. So In MY world there is no such thing as wrong, because its all perfect. It all leads t o "God"
 

Toro

Senate Member
RE: Is There Power to Pra

I hear you Self.

I am no fan of organized religion (I stayed home today) and I certainly am no fan of the Catholic church. I grew up in a fairly secular household and have a more positive outlook on religion than my wife, who was raised a strict Catholic. I've been to the Vatican. It is the most amazing building I have ever seen, and everyone should see it. But it makes you wonder why the church doesn't distribute the jewels and wealth to the poor. The Protestants are no better. You live south of the Mason-Dixon line. The Baptist church re-inforced slavery and segregation.

However, organized religion are man-made institutions, vulnerable to the foibles of mankind. The problems of the church does not mean God doesn't exist.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Jay said:
Toro said:
(Oh, and just in case you think I'm a Bible-thumper, I'm debating whether or I should go to church the once or twice I occassionally do so on the holiest days on the Christian calendar, since in a few hours, its Blackburn v. Liverpool.)

Don't worry if you didn't make it....I went for both of us! :)

There must be a God. Liverpool won 1-0.
 

damngrumpy

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The way I look at it if there is a God he or she would know what I need so I wouldn't waste a lot of Gods time praying for whatever.
Religion is the oldest con there is used by governments to control people. Look at the middle east and see how much God has done for those folks. On the other hand I am glad that many folks do believe, just think if real bad people didn't believe there was a day of justice, we wouldn't be safe to sleep in our beds at night.
 

selfactivated

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Re: RE: Is There Power to Pra

Toro said:
I hear you Self.

I am no fan of organized religion (I stayed home today) and I certainly am no fan of the Catholic church. I grew up in a fairly secular household and have a more positive outlook on religion than my wife, who was raised a strict Catholic. I've been to the Vatican. It is the most amazing building I have ever seen, and everyone should see it. But it makes you wonder why the church doesn't distribute the jewels and wealth to the poor. The Protestants are no better. You live south of the Mason-Dixon line. The Baptist church re-inforced slavery and segregation.

However, organized religion are man-made institutions, vulnerable to the foibles of mankind. The problems of the church does not mean God doesn't exist.

I grew up on the rhode island border line and 1 hour from Boston, archatecture is a passion of mine. I LOVE old buildings. Richmond has some amazing churches too, not that they even come close to St Patrick in NYC. My point being, I agree and have literly cried over the fact that churches spend millions on buildings while others starve. I could go on all day about how if we had one world government and we acted like we even just liked eachother as human beings, how much better the world would be. Yet I know my ideas of world peace are naive at best, not well thought out at worst. Your last point in my humble opinion is well said......I myself follow no guru and the lable I give mtself is just that a label. Tomorrow I might decide to praise Rah! But for today Im a simple Pagan with simple thoughts and a huge heart.
 

tracy

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Sassylassie said:
. Tracy you made a very valid point, if the power of prayer fails their are those that feel they have failed. My faith gives me strength but I don't use it to pray for life or death because that is up to a higher power. I've always believed when your numbers up it's up. I also follow the phylosophy if it's meant to be it will be and I don't sweat the little stuff. Like ITN I let my conscience guide me.

It's just the nature of my job that the most praying I've seen has been during a crisis. I've seen families comforted by their religious/spiritual beliefs and I've seen other suffer because of it. I am grateful when a family gets comfort from believing their baby is with God. I am incredibly sad when they believe their baby isn't with God because they weren't baptized in time or when they worry about their baby's soul because a blood transfusion is given without their consent. I think faith, like most things, has two sides.

I don't know where I stand on the issue. I've seen some things that make me want to believe and others that make me think there can't possibly be a God. I've never felt uncomfortable praying with a family who has asked me though. I think we all search for truth and meaning in some way and that's enough for me right now.
 

Sassylassie

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Tracy my nephew was born at 29 weeks weighing only 1 pound four oz. He looked like a little skinned rabbit, he fought a hard battle and now he is a healthy, smart young lad and a joy to be around. My sister takes him to the Neo Natal Unit several times a year (Christmas, Easter etc) and hands out treats to the Nurses and the Parents who have babies in the Unit. It's her way of saying Thank You to those who help him survive, he was in the unit for five months. God bless the Nurses, I have a special place in my heart for those who work with Premies they seem so good at what they do.
 

Mad_Hatter

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The original post and ensuing discussion on whether faith and prayer heals reminded me of a tale often told in psych classes. I hope you all read this, I shortened it as best I could but it's still a tad lengthly. Either way, it's hugely relevant to the discussion at hand.

Mr. Wright was a patient with advanced lymphoma, which had become resistant to all palliative treatments available at the time... The patient had “huge tumour masses, the size of oranges … in the neck, groin, chest and abdomen. He was bedridden and dependent on oxygen; the only treatment that helped was a sedative.

At the time, the American Medical Association was conducting a study into the usefulness of an alternative cancer remedy called krebiozen... Mr. Wright heard that krebiozen was available. He begged and pleaded to be put on the trial. Eventually against his own better judgment, his doctor, Dr Phillip West, agreed and gave him the first dose of krebiozen on a Friday.

By the following Monday, Mr. Wright was a changed man. The tumour masses melted “like snowballs on a hot stove” ... Kerbiozen seemed to work brilliantly, but only on one patient—Mr. Wright. In all other patients at the clinic there was no other responses, and within two months, all the other clinics in the study reported no successes. Hearing all this bad news Mr. Wright’s faith waned, and after two months of near-perfect health, he relapsed to his original state.

At this point, Dr West had the opportunity to double-check the efficacy of krebiozen. He deliberately lied to the patient and told him that the newspapers were wrong and that drug seemed to be working after all. He then told him that the relapse was caused by the drug’s short shelf life—it had deteriorated while in the pharmacy. Then Dr West said that he had a new preparation of double-strength krebiozen that was due to arrive in two days. Two days later, with Mr. Wright in a state of eager anticipation Dr West started giving him injections of pure water.

The results of the water injections were even more dramatic that with the original krebiozen. His condition went into another remission, which lasted for another two months. At that time, the American Medical Association made a final announcement that nationwide tests had shown krebiozen to be useless. Mr. Wright was now readmitted to the hospital, his faith gone, and his last hope vanished. He succumbed in less than two days. Mr. Wright had believed in the success of this new drug, so he became healthy for two months and not just once, but twice.
 

tracy

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Wow, thanks Tam.

Sassy, your sis is a doll. We love getting updates and visits from our "graduates". Makes the bad days worth it:) Well, I should go to bed since I have to work tonight with my little munchkins. Happy Easter :)
 

Dexter Sinister

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I'll go around it one more time. My point is simply that you cannot trust your memory and perceptions to give you the truth of things without elaborate safeguards against fraud, coincidence, wishful thinking, self-deception, and all the other errors human intelligence is prey to. This is well known to all serious students of human memory and perception, as all those links to The Skeptic's Dictionary I provided, and the further references they contain, make clear. Those safeguards are what the methods of science are about, and so far they've proven to be the only reliable means we have of determining the truth content of ideas. There is no anecdote in here, and there will not be one, that does not admit of much more prosaic explanations than the extraordinary interpretations of divinity and spiritual power many of you people have put on them.

For those who claim not to need evidence: what possible basis do you have for thinking you're right? It's not that my experience is significantly different from anyone else's, I simply interpret things differently. Many of you have made what I would consider to be self-serving emotional interpretations of events that suit what you want to believe or what you've been told by authority figures in your lives. It is lamentably easy to trick yourself into believing what you want to believe. Of course I'd like to believe my mother is still around in some form keeping an eye on me; who wouldn't? I loved her very much and it's a deeply comforting thought, that she's still around, that we'll be reunited some day... But I know of no reason to think that's true beyond my wish that it be so, and that's grounds to be extremely suspicious of it.

A very bright guy, an anthropologist named James Lett, once put it this way: “Because human beings are often motivated to rationalize and to lie to themselves, because they are sometimes motivated to lie to others, because they can make mistakes, and because perception and memory are problematic, we must demand that the evidence for any factual claim be evaluated without self-deception, that it be carefully screened for error, fraud, and appropriateness, and that it be substantial and unequivocal." I don't offhand recall where that came from, I have it in a letter I wrote to somebody else, but I'm sure I could find the citation on the Web if anybody's interested. Those are my--and science's-- standards of evidence.